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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Greensleeves on Saturday 19 April 14 23:44 BST (UK)
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This is the only known photo we have of James Arthur Philip Smith, a Royal Marines Musician, who died at sea after the bombing of HMS Fiji during the Battle for Crete in 1944. I'm wondering if anyone could help to identify what the objects are behind him in the photo? I want to do a restore but am not sure whether the objects are relevant to his life as a Royal Marines Musician. The object behind him at first sight looked to me like an ironing board, but then I wondered if it was a keyboard or something similar. Anyone got any bright ideas?
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Very mysterious. His right hand is either holding or resting on a strap which looks to be holding some kit of some sort - perhaps ... :-\
The odd thing is that when I first looked at the photo I thought it looked Naval before I read your question. I thought the fabric had a look of sails about it, though don't think that would be relevant to WW2 would it? Anyway, I still think that looks like sails, or sail cloth.
No clue what he is leaning on though. Perhaps just a shelf of some sort but it looks metal? I see what looks a bit like a carriage/pram wheels hanging up high and something technical (switchboard looking thing) to the left of the picture.
Sorry not to be of more help and probably pointing out things you already know.
Regarding a restore, have you considered just concentrating on defining and restoring James and leaving the background more or less as is, a bit blurred? This would keep him in context. It would be hard to restore objects if you don't know what they are and have no point of reference. If you put him in a different background it may not look right.
Just my thoughts. Good luck with it anyway. :)
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I am no expert but I suggest that he may be leaning against a gun platform and what is there behind him is the breech end of a gun and he looks as if he is inside a gun turret of some sort.
Looking at the armaments of HMS Fiji at that time it is difficult to pick what type of gun(s) were shown thereon.
Royal Marine Bandsmen were non combatants so why he may have been inside a turret beats me ........ perhaps it was 'for effect' .. who knows?
Joe
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I think it is just a space onboard were he probably sleeps and stows his kit, the "shelf" although substantial and rivetted to the bulkhead is probably a work bench and could double as his bed with a mattress on when not in use, the pipework and round wheels is probably a service line possibly a firewater ring main or steam line with valves operated by the "wheels". I don't think a gun turret would be used for stowing personal kit on a ww2 naval vessel. Though I have seen submariners sleeping on top of torpedo racks.
James
le as his
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Many thanks for your suggestions; I hadn't even noticed that what he is leaning on is a shelf rivetted to the 'wall' so it shows how observant I am! And thanks for pointing out the wheeled device hanging up. I am still puzzled about most of the objects but thanks for your help. You've all made me look closer at the photo with different eyes!
Kind regards
GS
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As you probably gathered I was a Royal Marine who was aboard an HM ship in 1947 a couple of years after he died.
We did not have beds or bunks as suggested but slept in hammocks which were lashed and stowed in a cage like structure the mess (never did like that term) where you slept and and what is seen below it is just shadow.
What you see above him without a doubt is the breech end of a gun and he is inside a gun turret ..... probably just arrived aboard and wanted to 'show off' for a photo to be sent home.
On the other hand the fact that he unfortunately died on the Fiji does not necessarily mean the photo was taken aboard that vessel ...I had two changes with 3 months HMS Gambia to HMS Glory.
Since a slung hammock moves in concert with the motion of the vessel, the occupant is not at a risk of being thrown onto the deck (which may be 5 or 6 feet below) during swells or rough seas. Likewise, a hammock provides more comfortable sleep than a bunk or a berth while at sea since the sleeper always stays well balanced, irrespective on the motion of the vessel. Prior to the adoption of naval hammocks, sailors would often be injured or even killed as they fell off their berths or rolled on the decks on heavy seas. The sides of traditional canvas naval hammocks wrap around the sleeper like a cocoon, making an inadvertent fall virtually impossible.
I found a photo of hammocks in use aboard HMS Belfast and I hope it transmits OK
Joe
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Interestingly,looking at the photo again ... there is one hammock in use and the other is still 'lashed' (not open) and when stowed during the day the the whole hammocks for the mess were stowed upright in a mesh pen which you can see part of in the right bottom of the photo.
This was a requirement under 'Damage Control Procedures' so that in the event of damage to the ship the hammocks did not float around and clog the pumps
Joe
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That is really interesting Joe. :)
Aren't hammocks bad for the back though? They must also be difficult to turn over in. :)
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Actually I found them to be very comfortable 8) 8).... no it is not possible to turn over but somehow it was not a worry .... the only worry was hanging your hammock in a passage way ........ by getting bumped on the bottom by passers by going on or coming off watch. >:( >:(
The old hands knew they would get an uninterupted sleep by swinging over the mess tables as shown in the photo. ;) ;)
Joe
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I've only just looked at this for the first time. To me it looks like he's leaning against a sink bench? with a couple of basins and hand soaps on the wall :-\
Can't make out if that hard case looking thing on the floor beside him in the shadows is actually a case or not :-\
Agree the wheels are some operating thing, perhaps for a fire door ( a bit high for that maybe ... added, I'll stick with what James said :D )
:) mare
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With regards to the photograph of James Arthur Philip Smith. The lighting, along with the shadow to his right, strongly suggests that the photograph was taken outside. He seems to be looking towards the sun and the shadow is at an angle from the same direction. As for the bench looking object behind him, might that be a platform which would enable people to more easily reach the various wheels above it? I agree that it appears to be some sort of gun turret, perhaps anti-aircraft?
His hand does appear to be holding on to the strap of a bag, which, for this spare of the moment shot, he has rested on the deck, without actually letting go of it.
Great picture.
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Now that you mention the lighting and angle of the shadows, the lower left shadow is probably the photographer :)
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As for the bench looking object behind him, might that be a platform which would enable people to more easily reach the various wheels above it? I agree that it appears to be some sort of gun turret, perhaps anti-aircraft?
His hand does appear to be holding on to the strap of a bag, which, for this spare of the moment shot, he has rested on the deck, without actually letting go of it.
Great picture.
You are quite correct Gary .... it is a gun platform and we are looking at the breech end (rear end) with all the controls that is 'training' (moving gun from left to right) and 'laying' (moving gun up and down) anyone who has been trained for this would understand.
He is holding his kit bag.
We really dont know what ship he is on when the photo was taken and at this moment I am trying to identify what sort of gun it is ...... oerlikon? bofors? or other??.
Joe
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I'm no expert on guns, so, cannot help with that.
I just had a look at photographs on the internet of the Fiji, and there are quite a few of them. I haven't seen anything close up, showing smaller guns but the bigger ones for and aft can be seen. The turrets to these guns are enclosed.
Nevertheless, could the photograph have been taken on the Fiji?
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Not only to stand on and reach the "wheels" but being that the turret turns you want to go with it, otherwise it might be a bit awkward.
http://youtu.be/X6q2PWJaBos
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Good point. Not a good idea to loose ones head in an emergency.
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I stand corrected, the "shelf" is a platform of the HA gun position for men either side of the gun to use the wheels for elevation. Out of sight on the pic would be a handrail that a gun crew member would be positioned inside of, his feet would be on that "shelf".
google gun transmitting station on british ww2 lightcruisers, then images, look at first pic then HMAS Sydney.
Another interesting article on Royal Marine Musicians and their battle stations
www.memorials.inportsmouth.co.uk/churches/cathedrals/fiji.htm
Your man is named on the caualty list and a biographical acount at the end by a RM musician.
Extremely interesting.
The pic did look like the inside of a ships space or a pedestal of some sort, but it is a gun.
James
James
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hi G/S I found this site and james is given as one of those who died,also gives an account of what took place that day. hope I have got the web side correct.
royalmarinesbands.myfreeforum.org/.../in-memory-hms-fiji_
Im sorry it didn't come up in blue,hopefully you or someone with more computer skills than me can find out where I went wrong. :-[ :-[
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There are so many adaptions and modifications of guns to suit the particular needs of which country's navy,class of ship or shore establishment .......images of which can be seen here;
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=20mm+Oerlikon+cannon+ROYAL+NAVY&client=firefox-a&hs=O2R&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=np&tbm=isch&imgil=JZ4tmbJcpv0dpM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQQw3x95GjvupQgXlk9yBAWiiiZt_tbEILJf6LtFH6myPoAIKY%253B437%253B447%253BpoqfbStB2CXLgM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.navweaps.com%25252FWeapons%25252FWNBR_2cm-85_GAM.htm&source=iu&usg=__P1RUmfnaeUxmQLpLFQ7jkfyHqks%3D&sa=X&ei=tT5YU6CFPOmjiAejxoCICg&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=j4P2_1XdEhk_uM%253A%3BQesU9wu7QsQdYM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flh5.ggpht.com%252F_kIWY2DV0KnE%252FS6WkGRzmtXI%252FAAAAAAAAGGo%252FpVKTX9Hwe5k%252FTwin%25252020mm%252520Oerlikon%252520cannon%252520mount.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fbayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com%252F2010%252F03%252Fweekend-warships-1-uss-san-diego-cl-
53.html%3B492%3B512
that would make it really difficult to define the type of gun that we see in the photo of James Arthur Philip Smith.
It is interesting to see the number of gun platforms and their shape some being circular and others static and the gunner being strapped in so that he can move 360 degrees quickly and without difficulty.
Joe
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There is a shrink link tool at the bottom of the page, gives you this;
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z0g/
I don't think it is an oerlikon though.
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I do most sincerely apologise to you all for not responding to all your wonderful observations. Thank you all so much - I'll go through them carefully now and hang my head in shame for neglecting you all.
Kind regards and thanks
GS
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Once again, thanks for all this useful input. Interesting that it is a gun platform behind him. I will have to try to find out when he joined HMS Fiji if I can. Would be interesting if this photo was taken aboard the Fiji; even more poignant.
I have read the account by the RM musician on the Cathedral website and found it really moving and it certainly brings home the horror of the situation.
Incidentally I see a number '2' on the side of the gun. Would that have any relevance?
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I think what you see as the figure 2 is a piece of cable tray with either electic cables or small instrument pipework, does look like a 2
James
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Thanks for that James. It does help to have input from people who know what they are talking about. The nearest I've come to being aboard a naval vessel was in nineteen-fifty-mumble when I was a kid and swam round HMS Eagle when she was in a bay near Akrotiri in Cyprus.
All the comments on this photo has certainly made me look at it in a new light. I would like to think it was the Fiji and that he had just come aboard with his kit-bag. But I suppose that's something we'll never know. But I am so grateful for the interest you have all shown in James A P Smith and the fate of HMS Fiji.
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The nearest I've come to being aboard a naval vessel was in nineteen-fifty-mumble when I was a kid and swam round HMS Eagle when she was in a bay near Akrotiri in Cyprus.
I was in Cyprus in 1957/58 places like zeros,Platres [Troodos Mountains] Famagusta. I guess you were on the RAF base greensleeves? nice island.
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There is a shrink link tool at the bottom of the page, gives you this;
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z0g/
Thanks for doing that YT ..... I am too old in the tooth to understand all this new fangled stuff :( :(
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Reading from an entry on HMS Fiji's history it says;
'Before she could join the taskforce, at 18.00 hours on 1 Sep, 1940, U-32 attacked the Dakar Task Force (Operation Menace) about 40 miles north-northeast of Rockall and reported a hit with its last torpedo on the troop transport Scythia, but in fact HMS Fiji (58) (Capt W.G. Benn, RN) was damaged and managed to return under own power to the Clyde, arriving on the evening of 3 September.
Five ratings were killed.
The cruiser was repaired at Greenock for six months.
She was fitted with radar and her Anti-Aircraft armament was also marginally increased.'
but no information as to what AA armament was added.
Narrowing down the possibilties it could have had added a single barrelled pom pom in the photo which was obviously an army modification.
Joe
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Hi - wasn't the battle for Crete in 1941? I have looked at the list of casualties and he died on 23/5/1941 rather than 1944.
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Battle for Crete in 1944 ?
HMS Fiji was sunk 22 May 1941.
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Of course shanreagh and Davke you are both correct ... I suggest it was just a simple typo by greensleeves ....... we have all been too busy looking at the armaments to pick up anything else I guess.
Joe
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I have been reading all of the posts and can add a bit more.
The gun mount if it is from HMS Fiji is probably the 0.5 inch mount on the port side of the bridge.
it is quite possible that my father (John (Jack) Stephen) would have known James Arthur Philip Smith as he served on HMS Fiji as a boy seaman and was in the secondary armament, 4 inch, turrets.
My father survived the sinking in 1941 and went on to serve in the RN until 1954 finishing up as a petty officer radar trainer.
Regards David Stephen
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Thanks for your reply, David, and welcome to Rootschat. Interesting to hear from you with the information about your father, one of the survivors. James Smith and his sister were orphaned at a young age - their father dying during the influenza pandemic which followed WW1 and their mother two years later - so the loss of James was devastating for his sister, the only survivor of their family.
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Hi,
I am always happy to help.
There is a great website devoted to HMS Fiji.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tomlipscombe/hmsfa.html
Have a look because you may get more information.
Regards
David