RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: Tufty on Tuesday 15 April 14 22:32 BST (UK)
-
Wife: Elizabeth
Kids: May, Samuel, Henry, Lucy, Joseph
Can anyone please add anything to this, supply ancestors etc?
Many thanks
Tufty
-
Hi to give an idea of ages is this 1851 census:-
Thomas DOWSAL 44 Occ Farm Lab
Elizabeth 46
Samuel 19
Lucy 11
Joseph 8
Residing at Calcutt Street, Cricklade
Census ref HO107/1834/331/14
Keyboard86
-
Hi again in 1841 Colcott Street, Cricklade:-
Thomas Dowsell 30
Elizabeth 30
Mary 12
Samuel 10
Henry 5
Lucy 1
Elizabeth Pinnege 50
Eliza Pinnege 20
Esther Brown 60
Alfred Brown 5
Census ref HO107/654/ 1178/35 / 3
Keyboard86
-
Yup, 1841 & '51 censuses are as far as I can get too.
Tufty
-
Yup, 1841 & '51 censuses are as far as I can get too.
Tufty
Tufty, it does help if years of birth for all is provided!!
Keyboard86
-
How about marriage of Thomas and Elizabeth?
And their deaths?
And their forebears?
-
Looking at a transcription of the Cricklade parish register there is a marriage of a Thomas Poundsell & Elizabeth Brown 19-Dec-1826. With the various spellings of Dowsell / Dowswell /Dowdeswell and being a transcription this may be a Dowsell
-
Thank you, Youngtug.
Interesting and about the right date, but how can one be sure?
(Incidentally, have you got a link to that Cricklade parish transcription entry?
Tufty
-
The transcript is on the Wiltshire OPC website, although there is not a OPC for Cricklade.
http://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/genealogy/index.php/parish-directory/item/279-cricklade-st-sampson
-
;D With a 60 year old Esther Brown in 1841 looks good to me?
Keyboard86
-
There is a printed transcript of St, Sampsons at my local Library, it may be better. I will have to have a look sometime but due to budgeting the council have cut funding to the library and the family history section is only open 3 days a week now, that makes it awkward for me to spend as much time as I would like there.
I must look into my Dowdeswell's, have sort of sidelined them. Most of what I know was sent to me by someone else and I have not yet verified most of it.
-
Thank you again, youngtug. I know nothing about online parish records. Must investigate.
Looking at that Cricklade parish ref you gave me, I find there is a Thomas Dowdeswell baptised 15.10.1806 - fits those censuses. Father John Dowdeswell, mother Susanna - progress! Also Thomas Dowdeswell buried 10.8.1864 age 57 - fits.
Is this new info 100%, or just maybe ancestors?
-
By the way, I am assuming that this Thomas Dowdeswell is the father of my great-great-grandfather Henry Dowsell born Mynety, Wiltshire, about 1841, although I cannot find a birth / baptism for the latter. I know about his marriages, children and death, but not birth.
-
keyboard86, you'll have to explain that one! (Esther Brown 1841)
-
John Dowsell baptised 24.7.1873. Parents: Thomas & Hester Dowsell.
Orf to bed. Will come back to this tomorrow.
Thank you, chums! I wasn't expecting such help.
Tufty
-
keyboard86, you'll have to explain that one! (Esther Brown 1841)
I think that keyboard86 means that in 1841 Thomas & Elizabeth are living with Esther brown aged 60, probably his mother-in-law,
-
There is a problem with the fact that also living in Cricklade at the same time is another Thomas Dowdeswell, at Chelworth tithing. This Thomas married Sarah Telling, also in 1826. This is my gtgtgtgrandfather. I have never sorted out farther back, although I was given a tree researched by someone else I have not checked it against the records so it may be wrong.
-
Dear youngtug and keyboard86
I think it is very likely that the Thomas Dowsell/Dowsall/Dowdeswell I am looking for is the one buried St Sampson 10.8.1864 age 57, therefore born 1807 (not Chelworth 8.1.1864 age 62, therefore born 1802). This fits better with the 1851 census which puts Thomas's year of birth around 1807. Also, there is a Henry Dowsell baptised Cricklade St Sampson 21.9.1834 (about right) to parents Thomas and Elizabeth Dowsell.
So I think I now have found the following ancestry:
Henry (Harry) Dowsell baptised 21.9.1834 Cricklade St Sampson, died 14.4.1882 Cardiff....son of
Thomas Dowdeswell baptised 15.10.1806 St Sampson, buried 10.8.1864 age 57 St Sampson (and Elizabeth ?).....son of
John Dowsell baptised 24.7.1773 St Sampson, buried ? (and Susanna ?)....son of
Thomas Dowsell...... (and Hester ?).....son of ?
Do you agree?
Can you fill any of the gaps?
Many thanks again
Tufty
-
The problem is that there is only the baptism of one Thomas at about the right time on the transcriopts, so either could be the one born to John & Susanna. I have to get to look at the original records sometime and try to unravel it. Hopefully there is more information available.
-
Well get on with it man! Your efforts are crucial!!
Let me know what you discover.................
-
This may take some time, it as been on the back burner for a few years so far :-\
-
Do you possess a front burner?
-
Have a heart - youngtug has warned that it might take sometime to check the original records (which are in the record office which is closed since it's Easter). There might also be other calls on his time which need to come first.
I'm sure he'll let you know if he finds anything useful. :)
Nell
-
Nell, he said it had been on back burner for "a few YEARS"!!!
Really haven't a clue how things work on here. Please forgive....😊
Yours tuftiestly
-
I have at some future time to make a visit to the Wiltshire & Swindon History Centre at Chippenham.
http://www.wshc.eu/contact-us.html
Whilst I am there I have a list has long has my arm of questions I need to answer concerning my tree. Some may be answerable, some not. I have, since I retired found that I have less time for my own use and being able to put aside a complete day at the moment is proving to be a challenge but I will at some time get there. In the meantime we can keep looking at other sources if we can find them.
I am without personal access to the census and again with my time constraints and the problems with the local library access times I might take some time before I can look at a census. There may be a clue on one of them.
-
Thanks youngtug. Being just retired myself, I understand exactly what you mean about diminishing time. Any help appreciated. God bless.
Tufty
-
Hi again, might be worthwhile checking this family out in 1881?
Samuel DOWDESWELL 49 Married occ Ag Lab
Lucy 17
Thomas 12
Elizabeth 10
Residing at Back Lane, Cricklade
Census ref RG11/2023/77/14
Keyboard86
-
Again as Dowdeswell in 1871 wife Mary 42 and an Agnes 12 at Ridlers Lane, Cricklade RG10/1887/27/16 and Ridlers Lane in 1861 RG09/1274/81/7 as Dowdeswell
Keyboard86
-
Hi again, 1861 census:-
Thomas DOWDESWELL 54 Occ Ag Lab
Elizabeth 56
Residing at Spittle Gate, Cricklade
Census ref RG09/1274/83/12
Keyboard86
-
Last one tonight:-
Marriage Lucy Dowdeswell to Thomas Wilks March qtr 1859 Cricklade 5a 19
1881 census
Thomas Wilks 42
Lucy 41
Joseph 20
William 12
Elizabeth 7
Elizabeth Dowdeswell 78 Boarder
Residing at Calcut Street, Cricklade
Census ref RG11/2023/75/10
Keyboard86
-
By the way, I am assuming that this Thomas Dowdeswell is the father of my great-great-grandfather Henry Dowsell born Mynety, Wiltshire, about 1841, although I cannot find a birth / baptism for the latter. I know about his marriages, children and death, but not birth.
Getting a bit worried that you have followed the incorrect line, if your Henry is the one in 1871/81 Cardiff in 1871 married to a Margaret with children Margaret and William he was b c 1841 not the c 1836 I showed and you confirmed?
Have you the marriage certificate to Margaret ( if the correct Henry)?
1871 census RG10/5358/32/37 and 1881 RG11/5277/112/24
Also this possible death Henry Dowdeswell March qtr 1843 Cricklade & C v8 page 229
-
According to the transcription on the OPC site Henry Dowdeswell buried 15-Mar-1843 was 7 years old.
Again, to be sure the original records and certificates are the best way of proving anything. There may not be a reference to connect people once you get back onto parish records only and so anything that is "guesswork" will have to be a "maybe". Sometimes something comes out of the blue and proves, or disproves, the theory.
-
Dear keyboard86 and youngtug....
One point: remember, the 1841 census attests that a Henry Dowsell was born to parents Thomas & Elizabeth in 1835-6, not 1841.
Now I must admit that Henry's marriage and death certificates (which I have) give an age which makes his birth to be 1841, as do subsequent censuses which he filled out. However, if the marriage cert is to be believed, both Henry and Margaret were 25 when they wed, so I have gone along with believing that Henry fudged his age in order to appear younger, either for her, or for employment reasons when he migrated to Cardiff, or some other reason like vanity. It happens, as you know! I can see that the Henry Dowdsewell buried 1843 age 7 in Cricklade parish does sound awfully relevant, but it could be a different Henry D I suppose..
Incidentally, Henry D is 'Dowdeswell' on his daughter's birth certificate, 'Dowsell' on his son's and 'Dowswell' on his marriage cert! Couldn't seem to make up his mind, but finally plumped for 'Dowsell" (death cert)
I think there may well be mileage in youngtug's Cricklade parish find: marriage of Thomas 'Poundsell' to Elizabeth Brown 19.12.1826 - which fits the ages of children born to Thomas & Elizabeth Dowsell of Cricklade in 1841 census - and also might explain Esther Brown living with them - Elizabeth's mother? - and Alfred Brown age 5 - son of a perhaps deceased sister of Elizabeth, therefore Esther's grandson?
Henry ('Harry' somewhere) married twice: second marriage being to Ann White in 1873. On both those certificates he states his father to be Thomas Dowswell, a carpenter. 'Deceased' in 1873. Therefore it appears that Thomas died some time between Henry's 2 marriages, that is between 1866 and 1873.
I hope you are both as intrigued by this as I am.
Any further progress would be gratefully received.
Tufty
-
:) Hi again, 2 things, so father Thomas who in 1841/51/61 suddenly decides he has had enough of being an Ag Lab, so has a change of career and becomes a Carpenter, not only that but he decides to have only one child ie Henry born in Minety/Myntey, from a personal viewpoint I believe the death of Henry in 1841 was the one in 1843 as it seems odd that he is not with his family or any relatives in 1851/61?
I can promise you I have been "On the case" over 2 days now, and he really is a puzzle!
Keyboard86
-
I see from the transcripts that Thomas, of St, Sampson was buried 10-Aug-1864 aged 57 which ties in with the birth of 1806
The other [mine] Thomas of Chelworth is buried 8-Jan-1864 aged 64
-
Sorry, I'm off to Cardiff City v Stoke now. Pity me. (Supporter 50 years).
Will reply later.
Tufty
-
Hi again, funnily enough his wife does not remember him as a Carpenter?
1871 Census
Thomas Wilks 32 occ Ag Lab
Lucy 31
Joseph 10
William 3
Elizabeth Dowdeswell 67 Mother in Law occ Widow of Ag Lab
Residing at Calcott Street, Cricklade
All born Cricklade
Census Ref RG10/1887/28/13
Keyboard86
-
keyboard86, re your 02.10 post today, it was only Henry who claimed his father was a carpenter, not Thomas himself. Just snobbery on Henry's part, being in the big city, getting on in the brewing industry, not wishing to admit he came from mere Ag Lab stock?
Again, it is Henry (not Thomas) who in the 1871 census says he is from Mynety Wilts. Is it simply that Mynety is in 'Greater Cricklade'? Sometimes they just put the county.
By 1851 Henry would have been 15+, so I don't think it is strange in those hard-up times if he was no longer with his parents.
youngtug, re your post today, I said that in my post of 00.30 last Wednesday. So do you think now that Thomas husband of Elizabeth is the Thomas Dowdeswell we are looking for?
-
;D None so blind.........
Keyboard86
-
Thomas Dowswell, a carpenter. 'Deceased' in 1873. Therefore it appears that Thomas died some time between Henry's 2 marriages, that is between 1866 and 1873.
Tufty
Thomas of St, Sampson, who married Elizabeth died in 1864
-
I think Minety is in the Malmesbury district.
-
Thomas Dowswell, a carpenter. 'Deceased' in 1873. Therefore it appears that Thomas died some time between Henry's 2 marriages, that is between 1866 and 1873. (Tufty)......Thomas of St, Sampson, who married Elizabeth died in 1864 (tugboat)
Could be Henry in Cardiff was estranged from his kin back in Wiltshire and only learnt of his father's death a couple of years after the event.
I think Minety is in the Malmesbury district (tugboat)
I fully accept that the case for Thomas & Elizabeth as parents to Henry is not exactly water-tight.
But I am still waiting for either of you to build any kind of case for alternative parents!
None so blind......... (keyboard86)
It's always easier to be negative than positive.
Goodnight, chums.
Tufty
-
Hi Tufty, interested to see your interest/research into Henry/Harry Dowsell. He and his descendants have recently come onto my research radar as I think that line may have an undocumented parentage event. Would be interested to correspond. Can't seem to send a personal message on here for some reason, so please email [ * ] if you get this message. Thanks.
* Personal e-mail address removed in accordance with RootsChat general practice and guidance to stop others from spamming or abusing it. To use the personal message system, new members need to make two or three posts in order to access the system. Thanks