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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: wrjones on Tuesday 15 April 14 19:11 BST (UK)
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Can anyone give me the birth and birthplace of a Carlton H DeVille who married my relative Gertrude Tomkins at Ashfield New South Wales please?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hi
It looks like he arrives in Sydney on 3 November 1925 from London on board the Jervis Bay (marrying Gertrude in 1927).
He gives his address on the manifest as 23 Vernon Road, Chester (Cheshire) giving a birth year of about 1885 (aged 40)
if he was English the only one around that time I can see was a Herbert Deville born in London (registered in Wandsworth in 1885), son of Louis De Ville and Fanny Jane Wymark. Not sure where the Carleton bit might come in if that is him.
Do you have the marriage certificate to check the father's name as they might give some more clues?
Hmmm not sure on the link to London born Herbert De Ville as there is a corresponding death in the UK in 1974. Did Carleton die in Australia?
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NSW marriage index
5871/1927 DEVILLE CARLTON H TOMKINS GERTRUDE ASHFIELD
NSW death index
31954/1965 DEVILLE GERTRUDE father UNKNOWN mother UNKNOWN district GOULBURN
The Canberra Times (ACT : 1926 - 1995)
Friday 21 November 1941
IN MENORIAM.
DE VILLE.—In loving memory of my late husband, Carlton H. De-Ville, who passed on November 21, 1940. Recalled. From pain and suffering free. Peace, perfect peace.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2587451?searchTerm=%22Carlton%20H%20DeVille%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=Carlton+H+DeVille
It doesnt say where he died and i cant find a death index in NSW for him.
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Judging by that death record, we can cancel out Herbert De Ville, b 1885 in London.
Can't find any Carleton De Ville's in any of the obvious places though
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Ok found a second name for him so that should make looking for a birth etc easier.. maybe ;D
The Canberra Times (ACT : 1926 - 1995)
Friday 6 December 1940
LEGAL NOTICE
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY PROBATE JURISDICTION. IN THE ESTATE of CARLTON HORATIO DEVILLE Deceased of Griffith in the Australian,, Capitol Terrioiy, Painter, Intestate APPLICATION will be made after fourteen days from the date hereof that Letters or Administration of the Estate of the abovenamed Deceased may be granted [to Gertrude DeVille the Widow of the abovenamed Deceased and all notices may be served on Mis, G, DeVille,
Bougainville Street, Griffith, A.C.T,
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2545144?searchTerm=%22gertrude%20DeVille%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=gertrude+DeVille
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Found his obituary, dont know why i cant find him in the NSW death indexes tho ???
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2543992
Burial Woden cemetery
DE VILLE, Carlton Horatio 21st November 1940 55 years. RS.
http://hiddencanberra.webs.com/-%20New%20Folder/1936-1967%20Alpahbetical%20List.pdf
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There is a listing of a C H DeVille in the roles for WW1 Britain. In it he is listed from Leeds.
Neil
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Found his obituary, dont know why i cant find him in the NSW death indexes tho ???
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2543992
Burial Woden cemetery
DE VILLE, Carlton Horatio 21st November 1940 55 years. RS.
http://hiddencanberra.webs.com/-%20New%20Folder/1936-1967%20Alpahbetical%20List.pdf
that confirms a birth of around 1885 so there are 'some' English connections
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"dont know why i cant find him in the NSW death indexes tho"
Because he died in ACT.
Neil
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There is a listing of a C H DeVille in the roles for WW1 Britain. In it he is listed from Leeds.
Neil
Think that might be Charles Henry DeVille (registered born 1883 in Leeds)
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"dont know why i cant find him in the NSW death indexes tho"
Because he died in ACT.
Neil
OH, there you go i just learnt something else new ;D Thanks :)
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Correct Ruth just found him Glassworks wetter?
I wonder how this bloke escaped getting his name put in three census returns tho.
Just Wonder if he changed it?
Neil
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I'm wondering if there was a name change too...if he was English he well and truly escaped. I can't even find any birth registrations for anyone remotely like that...even messing with spellings
I fear the marriage certificate is needed. The manifest gives his occupation as a painter so if he was an Artist type painter he could well have changed his name to sound a bit more 'arty' if you know what I mean ;D
edit - his obit says painting trade so that might suggest a decorator....does say he was in the RAF in the last war (presume 14-18) so there must be a military record somewhere - unless he is your Charles Henry with a name change???
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Some electoral roles would be nice they should give his occ.?
Neil
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Australian ones just say 'painter' so the manifest is the right bloke
Not sure if UK electoral rolls are online?
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Drawing a total blank....
i think we need to find a street directory for 1924/1925 for Chester somewhere and see who was living at Vernon Road because that and the marriage certificate might be our only clues ???
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I cant even find any trees with a Carlton Deville. Thought it would be interesting to check out if there was one ::)
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Many thanks for all the replies and I apologise for not looking in sooner.As far as Trees,there is only one apart from mine with Gertrude in .The other one doesn't have any spouse or death for her.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I think you should apply for his DC
http://www.ors.act.gov.au/resources/attachments/Historic_Death_Index3.pdf
20,000547 is Ref # 21st november 1940. Unfortunatly online it does not show either parent although some do and as I have had NOTHING to do with ACT BDM's I am unsure what they contain.
Neil
This is the one for applications.
http://www.ors.act.gov.au/community/births_deaths_and_marriages/historic_death_index
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The ACT historical death index can be found at
http://www.ors.act.gov.au/community/births_deaths_and_marriages/historic_death_index
The index gives a registration number of 20000547, a death date of 21 November 1940, and no parental details have been supplied.
Just beaten to the information ... by Neil
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Doesn't give you more info about his family but some idea of what sort of work he did:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2306493?searchTerm=%22De%20Ville%22
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2515466?searchTerm=%22De%20Ville%22
"Charlton", an alternate spelling:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/989639?searchTerm=%22H%20DE%20Ville%22
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The continental experience could be of interest.Though there a lot of Deville people in the UK Census entries,I have been looking at one who came to the UK from France.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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It could be of interest that Gertude's probate record mentions a Blanche Gartside.There is a marriage of a Blanche Deville to a John b Gartside at Southport in 1936.There is a birth of a Blanche Deville at Newcastle Northumberland in 1912,mother's maiden name of Parker.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Apparently the Blanche Deville's parents were a Gilbert Charles Deville and a Gertrude Parker who married at Wigton Cumberland in 1905.A later Census entry gives this Gilbert Charles Deville as born in Islington London in c 1881.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Would you not buy his NSW marriage certificate? Unless he fibbed, you should at least get his age and parent's names ..... :-\ (unsure about place of birth or other info on NSW certs but others will know)
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Would you not buy his NSW marriage certificate? Unless he fibbed, you should at least get his age and parent's names ..... :-\ (unsure about place of birth or other info on NSW certs but others will know)
I agree Ruskie, and of course, it would be info given by Charlton himself, so first hand info :)
NSW BDM website http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
"Bridegroom's full name, occupation, place of residence, conjugal status, place and date of birth, age, father's name and mother's maiden name
Bride's full name, occupation, place of residence, conjugal status, place and date of birth, age, father's name and mother's maiden name
Celebrant's name and witnesses"
May I also note that NSW BDM marriage certs for 20th Century also include former names, either for Bride or Groom, when those details have been given to the celebrant. When the marriage ceremony was conducted by a Reverend, you also get the denomination. If either party was not yet of age (ie until the 1970s, not yet 21 years) you also are given the name and relationship of the adult who gives consent on behalf of that under age person.
May I suggest a transcription from one of the several official transcription agents will be cheaper and quicker than the real deal cert.
NSW BDM webpage re official transcription agents: (you may need to scroll down to the final paragraphs of that page)
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
RChat's NSW Resources Board includes info about NSW BDM
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.msg4949134#msg4949134
Cheers, JM
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Then the marriage certificate is definitely worth buying. :)
I have been digging around in the UK census and bmds, using variations of names and ages and can't come up with anything that looks likely. Tried searches such as first name only, middle name as first name, surname with wildcards, no surname, surname only and no forenames, no dob, dob as 1885 +/- 5 and 10 years (one of mine knocked 10 years off his age when he arrived in Australia, so you need to be flexible ;))
Am even considering complete change of name ... so the marriage certificate may give even a tiny clue. :-\
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I think the only real benefit from obtaining the 'real deal' cert rather than an official transcription is that the real deal cert would have the autographs of the bride, the groom, the clergy, and the witnesses.
To me, if this were my family history I was following up, then it is simply a no brainer to spend around the $Au20 and get the official transcription. To me it is a question of whether I want the autographs or just the information :)
Cheers, JM
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As Carlton is a bit of a mystery man, his real signature may be useful if he had previously married or been known by another name at some stage and other documentation is uncovered which contains his signature.
Just speculation of course and buying the original may later prove to be unnecessary.
It is William's decision of course. :)
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All my families were well established in NSW long before Federation, so I am not sure of what travel documents would have been usual for travel to Australia in the early 20th Century. I do know though that there's been several threads at RChat about Passports, particularly UK ones. In general terms, Passports were not needed until say WW1 for persons seeking to travel outside the UK.
Here's a link that RChatter Stanmapstone posted (on thread : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=677387.0 )
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/passport.htm?WT.Ip=rg-22875
Perhaps a search for Carlton H DeVille's passport application may help, as it seems he has not been found in RAF records, nor in UK Census records?
Cheers, JM
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I did a rough search and used France as a possible word on 1901 census and came up with quite a few DeVille's either born France or were Brits Living there on the census.
So I was thinking he may possibly have been British to French parents or just French and not on any census. ???
Neil
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Apparently the Blanche Deville's parents were a Gilbert Charles Deville and a Gertrude Parker who married at Wigton Cumberland in 1905.A later Census entry gives this Gilbert Charles Deville as born in Islington London in c 1881.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Thanks once again for all your replies.
Without wishing to complicate matters still further,I'm wondering whether the death I found in 1963 in Southport wasn't for Gertrude Deville(Parker)?She is given as Gertrude Parker born in c 1882 in Scarborough Yorkshire in the 1901 UK Census.
Now whilst my Gertrude Tomkins was born in Southport Lancashire in 1883,the death entry of the Gertrude Deville in Southport in 1963 gives a birth of c 1884.Which does leave a certain margin of error?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Probate notice 1968 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article107051529
Probates, Supreme Court, Canberra, an Election to Administer the estate of
GERTRUDE DE VILLE of 36 Bougainville Street, Manuka, pensioner, deceased.
etc
regards,
Ros
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Thanks Ros,I'm beginning to think that the death of the Gertrude Deville in Southport Lancashire in 1963 was indeed that of Gertrude Deville(Parker).
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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LAN-OPC has this marriage in 1918 - a possible sibling? :
"23 Dec 1918 St Peter, Burnley, Lancs.
George Henry De Ville - 21, Soldier, Bachelor, 58 Lindsay Street, Burnley
Gertrude Meehan - 20, Weaver, Spinster, 58 Lindsay Street, Burnley
Groom's Father: Horatio De Ville, Deceased, Painter
Bride's Father: John Meehan, Soldier
Witness: Thomas Turner; Janey De Ville"
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Burnley/stpeter/marriages_1907-1920.html
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In the RAF Muster Roll from 1918 there is this one:
219157 Deville L C, Labourer, AC1
EDIT this is Leonard Cartwright Deville who resided in London and died in Edmonton in 1962.
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Thanks,it seems that George H and this Gertrude also went to Australia as they show on Electoral Rolls.I'm not finding the George H too readily in the earlier UK Census.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Horatio Henry Deville marries Kate White in Doncaster in 1896.
1901 Kate is with her parents in Whiston, with two children Jennie Deville (age unclear) born Worksop and George Deville age 3 born Atherton.
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This is interesting:
Horatio Henry Deville m. 1896 Doncaster
born as plain Horatio De ville in 1875 Doncaster
Supposedly "left his family and was never heard of again" sometime in his twenties:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/deville/messages/104.html
Which might explain him being "deceased" when George was married (if George was this Horatio's son).
Kate White, by 1911 appears to be living with a "Martin McDonald" (from what I can squeeze out of the free index) with George Henry and some younger kids to this second relationship. Kate didn't marry Martin until 1913 (he is McDonnell on freebmd).
Jennie/Janey is Jinny Deville on freebmd - at least at birth, I can't see a marriage so far.
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Thanks both,yes I did see the marriage and Kate et al in 1901 later.Could Horatio be our man?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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He seems like a front runner at the moment - he has the right occupation, the name is close, there doesn't seem to be a death for him in England/Wales at least, and a change of name/age isn't unusual especially if he was avoiding his first wife!
A bit mysterious where he was in 1901/1911 in that case - Europe?
It does appear the details from marriage are going to be necessary to untangle what happened, though.
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Gertude's probate record mentions a Blanche Gartside
I think we need to understand where Blanche fits in. What is the context of the probate mention?
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Apparently the Blanche Deville's parents were a Gilbert Charles Deville and a Gertrude Parker who married at Wigton Cumberland in 1905.A later Census entry gives this Gilbert Charles Deville as born in Islington London in c 1881.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Yes I think Blanche was Gertrude(Parker)'s daughter.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Thanks once again for all your replies.
Without wishing to complicate matters still further,I'm wondering whether the death I found in 1963 in Southport wasn't for Gertrude Deville(Parker)?She is given as Gertrude Parker born in c 1882 in Scarborough Yorkshire in the 1901 UK Census.
Now whilst my Gertrude Tomkins was born in Southport Lancashire in 1883,the death entry of the Gertrude Deville in Southport in 1963 gives a birth of c 1884.Which does leave a certain margin of error?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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You mean that Blanche Gartside was mentioned in the probate of Gertrude Parker/Deville?
I had assumed that you meant the probate of Gertrude Tomkins/Deville.
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Well yes,I don't think now that the death in 1963 is my Gertrude.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I think your Gertrude is the one that died in 1968 in Manuka. Ros posted a link to the probate notice earlier
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/107051529
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Yes I came to my conclusion after Ros's post.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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"During 1933, the theatre’s foyer underwent a complete redecoration. Under Moir’s supervision, local painter, C.H. de Ville, redecorated the foyer with plastic oil paint, blown with silver and gold powders. New display boards, set in silver and red, replaced numerous small wall boards and an amber lighting scheme was adopted."
http://www.canberrahistoryweb.com/capitolcivictheatres.htm
And another motor accident in 1938 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2498037
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Thanks for posting the links.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Some more bits and pieces from Trove:
From 1930 - report of proceedings of the Federal Capital Commission mentions a letter from Mr C H De Ville, who had been seeking employment as a signwriter. A "returned soldier". http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2275619
From 1936:
- C H De Ville a witness at an Industrial Board hearing http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2422987
- C H De Ville president of the Operative Painters and Decorators Union, FCT branch http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2426644
- Vote for Carlton H De Ville http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2414197
And, in passing, a mention of Trumpeter C De Ville 5th Light Horse, Lismore - wounded in 1915. Can't find a record of this soldier
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/79335355
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Many thanks once again for these excellent links.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Trumpeter "deville" I think was actually "Neville":
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10424484?searchTerm=Trumpeter%20%22Light%20Horse%22%20Lismore
http://www.anzacs.org/5lhr/pages/5lhrmembersno.html
- information here confirming it.
Probably no connection, just an error by the newspaper.
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Many thanks once again.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Greetings. I found your forum just now after googling search terms for my g-g grandfather Harry (or Henry) Horatio Deville (born 1851). I haven't come across a Carlton Horatio Deville before, but then my searches stopped with the disappearance of Horatio Deville. (born 1875 in Mexborough, near Doncaster).
It makes sense to me that Carlton was a theatrical painter - if he was descended from Horatio Deville. Horatio was a painter and decorator who worked in Mexborough for his maternal uncle, Walter Nicholson. At some point he upped and left after he discovered his wife had been unfaithful (this would be Kate White). The last I knew of him was that he had a son named George.
Horatio's father was my g-g grandfather, Harry Horatio. Harry grew up in the theatre as his parents worked with a travelling theatre co. around the north of England. Harry was also a violinist and a set painter and his father (Henry Clifton - Deville was an assumed name and later became actual) was also a set painter. So it's highly likely Carlton learned the trade in England. HH Deville, my 2x, also disappeared, ran off and left his family and children. Quite an exhausting family to track, but do reply if you have any questions.
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I've had some time to think about Carlton and I'm fairly convinced he was in fact my great-great uncle Horatio. I mentioned him in my previous post. He was born in 1875 and as a previous poster (Ruskie) mentioned, it's possible Carlton had knocked 10 years off his age. He left his family (his mother, Elizabeth Nicholson, my great-grandmother, Albertine) telling them they would never see him again. He's mentioned as being deceased on the marriage record of his son George ( I can't find a birth entry for him on Free BMD, UK) and I suspect he wasn't very active in his upbringing. His own father, Harry Horatio Deville (nee Clifton), also disappeared when Horatio was about 15, started a second family using a new surname and then disappeared again. I've no idea where he ended up. I hope this is useful. Does anyone have a photograph of Carlton Horatio ??