RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: ozeannie on Tuesday 15 April 14 12:43 BST (UK)
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Hi,
the link below is most of what I know about Frederick Lillycroft Lindsay other than the fact that he is given as the father of my g-g-grandfather Frederick Lee on his baptismal register. Frederick's mother was the convict Agnes McMillan and Frederick was born 10 Jan 1841 at the Cascades Female Factory and baptised 17 Jan 1841. Once free, Agnes married (or at least was a common law wife of) another convict William Roberts and had several children with him. They left Tasmania and travelled to the Richmond River area via Melbourne and the Victoria goldfields. On the transport register for the ship, Frederick appears listed under the Roberts name, though this was probably just assumed to be the case as he was travelling with the Roberts family. By the time he was married, Frederick had the surname "Lee". Whether this was adapted from his natural father Frederick Lindsay or whether he assumed this name himself is unknown. He also raised his own family under the name Lee and died by the same name. His father was listed as Frederick Lee on his death certificate, but again, Lee was probably the assumed name of his father if the informant didn't know any better. I am desperate to find out more about Frederick Lindsay after his convict days - I did find a shipping record for a Frederick Lindsay from Launceston to Melbourne and a death of a Frederick Lindsay in Victoria in the 1850's but I don't know if it is him. I am also longing to try and find the origin of the Lee name. Anyone with any information or suggestions, gratefully appreciated.
http://foundersandsurvivors.org/pubsearch/convict/chain/c31a31250703
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Frederick Lillycroft Lindsey (Moffatt 2) eligible for Certificate of Freedom 27th June 1844
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ywe/
cheers :)
cupoflife
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Thanks, yes, sorry I should have said I did have that as well....I have his convict conduct record & particulars....it's what happened to him after his convict days I need to know....and/or about his parentage and life before his trial....not likely to find out I know but just posting here as a long shot in case someone else has found anything... I know he was first assigned to Mr Andrew Wright at Old Beach. I would like to find out who else he may have been assigned to, the location and dates. I am going to contact Tasmanian Archives to see if they can help with any further records but just thought I'd try the forum also....I have a feeling that Frederick Lindsay may never have married...just a totally unfounded hunch - but if he did he may have then had descendants and hopefully if so one might see this post... Thanks :)
P.S. He is listed on the 1841 muster as working for Van Dieman's Land Company. The Frederick Lindsay who sailed to Melbourne did so on the City of Melbourne in 1851 under a Conditional Pardon.
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Sadly, if he had no friends or family it's likely that his death, if you can find it, may have no further information. The chap who travelled to Victoria and the death found in Victoria look promising so you may want to purchase that death certificate. However, as I've already said it may have no useful information, depending on the knowledge of the informant for the certificate. So many went looking for gold and died with no-one knowing much about them.
I note that the records of his three Court appearances in Exeter give some slightly different spellings for his name - Lillycrop and Lillycrap, rather than Lillycroft, and LINDSEY in a couple of the records.
You may already have this newspaper report of the trial for the second of his crimes.
Trewman's Exeter Flying Post or Plymouth and Cornish Advertiser (Exeter, England),
Thursday, March 30, 1837
City Assizes
At half-past one o'clock Mr Justice Williams repaired to the Guildhall and the trial of prisoners began.
Philip BROAD, 27, and Frederick Lillycrop LINDSAY, 23, for burglariously entering the dwelling-house of Mr Nicholas STRONG, Falcon Inn and stealing beef, pork &c. Guilty of stealing; and sentenced to be imprisoned 3 months and to be kept in hard labour.
I can't see a report of the case which resulted in transportation.
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Yes you're right - there were a number of spellings also Lillycraft and Linsey and Lindey and Linday etc etc - makes it harder still to trace him. I agree with all of the sentiment in your first paragraph and have come to the same conclusion. I actually hadn't got the newspaper report so thank you, I usually end up tracking those down but hadn't got that far with him yet.
I'll see if I can find anything further in the papers but if you've already looked I doubt I will find anything either..... Thanks again for your help
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I wonder if he was actually baptised Frederick Augustus LINDSEY?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J792-BH3
Parents' marriage?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N2CD-96N
Debra :)
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I saw that one, Debra and wondered the same. He certainly has a quite smart sounding name for a chap whose Court record implies that he hasn't had much education. Oh, my what a sweeping generalisation that is! :-X :-[
Judith
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Gosh you could be onto something there. First I saw the christening and thought "No, he is definitely Lillycrxxx" on all his convict paper trails but then I saw the marriage and it all made sense where you were going.....hmmm...the plot just keeps thickening.... He chopped and change the spelling of his name so much, why not just change the actual name itself as well? Have to go for now but I'll be back to ponder this some more later ...
Thanks for the heads up.
Anne
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Yes I've had another look - the dates certainly match up - he (FLL) was born circa 1811-1812 from age on convict records, which matches the baptism. Exeter, Devon matches.
I haven't been able to find any evidence of a death of a Frederick Augustus Lindsay/Lindsey etc or any other reference to him on census records, though he could have died before they were taken and the death not recorded. Still, there's no record there to prove there WAS a Frederick Augustus Lindsey survived in England AFTER my fella came out here. Or even a Frederick Lindsey of the right age and location that was really obvious...
I think there's a good chance you've found his parents for me :) :) Just have to say "possible parents" rather than "parents" in adding them to my tree.
As to what became of him - I looked further into the death of Frederick Lindsay in Victoria in 1854. He was 42 years of age (matches b1812), parents were unknown, but birthplace was England. I think I might have found my man! Of course this could all be co-incidental, but I'm excited just a little :) :)
Notwithstanding the plethora of spelling variations from Lindsey at baptism to Lindsay at death and all the variations in-between of Linsey, Linsay etc - plus changing his middle name from Augustus to Lillycroft/Lillycraft/Lillycropp/Lillycrapp etc.
I still haven't found the story behind the Lee name however - it would appear that Frederick the father didn't change his name to Lee, so that is one thing that can perhaps be eliminated. I also don't know how Agnes as a convict had an illegitimate baby and didn't seem to suffer the consequences for it (ie convict women generally got a further punishment if they were found to be pregnant, irrespective of the circumstances). Agnes would have conceived around April 1840 to have Frederick in Jan 1841. There is nothing in her conduct record in 1840 until October when she got done for "insolence". She would have been 6 months pregnant by then - maybe she managed to keep it hidden till that time...?? but there is no evidence of Frederick at the Queen's orphanage which is where the convict babies ended up as a rule. Agnes was working at the factory nursery - maybe she managed to keep him hidden amongst the babies there....otherwise I can only imagine she somehow had someone else looking after him on the quiet on the outside - I'm wondering if the Lee name is in thanks for someone of that name who took care of him....????
Still a puzzle!
P.S. Frederick junior was known as Frederick Lee on all documents including electoral rolls up until about 9 years before his death. In the last few years he appears as Frederick Leslie Lee on the roll, and also named Frederick Leslie Lee on his death certificate. From where and why this middle name appeared is also a mystery!
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Just because occasionally there is more of a clue than is immediately apparent I wonder if you would please transcribe the death certificate.
As to his names, I doubt that it would have been him changing the names, rather that the various people writing down his name/s just wrote more or less what they heard, or what they transcribed from another document. His criminal records state that his level of literacy as "Imp" - imperfect - so he may not have checked what was being written.
Judith
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I don't have the actual certificate, I only paid for the extract.
Here is what it says:
Family Name: LINDSAY
Given Name(s): Frederick
Sex: Unknown
Event :DEATH
Father's Name: Unknown
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Family Name:
Spouse's Given Name(s):
Age: 42
Birth Place: ENGLAND
Death Place:
Registration Year: 1854
Registration Number: 1155
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Judb:
I can't see a report of the case which resulted in transportation.
Here it is, I found it after all (image attached)
Image removed to prevent breach of copyright
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and his acquittal .... though it doesn't state the alleged offence..
Image removed to prevent breach of copyright
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Good finds, ozeannie I was using "Exeter Assizes" as the search, which is why I didn't find it although I did do a search each for "LINDSEY" and "LINDSAY" which were not found by the search engine. Never mind.
You may find a little more on the actual death certificate, although it's a bit of a long shot so depends on whether you want to spend the $20 :-\ However perhaps the informant may have been able to put in some further detail. At least you would know where he's buried. This is what is asked for:
Deaths
Date and place of death;
name and surname;
occupation of the deceased;
sex and age;
cause of death,
duration of illness,
medical attendant by whom certified and when he last saw deceased;
name and surname of parents (if known) including mother's maiden surname signature, description and address of the person who gave the information; signature of deputy registrar, date and where registered,
when and where buried,
undertaker whom certified;
name and religion of Minister, or names of witnesses of burial;
place of birth of the deceased and how long he or she resided in the Australian colonies or states (stating which),
name of spouse,
place of marriage,
age at marriage;
names and ages of children of the deceased.
Given the circumstances of the baby's birth perhaps Frederick may not have even known he was a father.
The image for his acquittal court appearance gives the crime as "larceny"
Judith
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Yep thanks - understand all of that, but I'm not inclined to spend the $20, given the small amount on the extract, I doubt there would be much more on the certificate - maybe perhaps where he is buried and the date of death but that is all... I went for the 99c "peep" to find out if parents were mentioned (didn't think it likely as the informant was unlikely to know). HOWEVER had the parents been mentioned and they were for example William and Mary I would have then known that either this chap wasn't mine, or that Jane and John Lindsay weren't my fella's parents - the fact that so little is registered sort of supports my theory that this is him. I also agree he probably didn't know he was a father.
I have applied for the death certificate of Agnes Roberts (McMillan). I know her date & location of her death and burial already. I'm just curious to see if Frederick is listed as a child - he may not be as technically he is not a "child of the marriage" - and/or if indeed Frederick is even the informant, being the eldest child....also any other juicy bits that might be on that one.
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I agree that it's unlikely you would find more information on the actual certificate.
In the issue of Trewman's Exeter Flying Post or Plymouth and Cornish Advertiser, Thursday, January 5, 1837 a week earlier than the report of the acquittal, there is reference to the Devon County Sessions having a large number of prisoners to deal with who seem together to have "entered into a plantation, in the night time, for the purpose of destroying game".
So it looks as though poaching was the crime. Seems to me to the credit of the Court that the 'prisoners' were dealt with separately. I would think it would have been very easy to lump them altogether.
Judith
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Yes I saw that same report :) Sounds like it was quite a night ;D
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Its' been a long time since I was on here, didn't realise... I had forgotten about this thread. For the sake of completeness, I can report that I got the death certificate of Agnes Roberts and it lists 5 sons, 2 daughters living and 1 daughter deceased. No names, but she had 4 sons with William Roberts and 3 daughters, one of whom predeceased her, so the 5th son would be Frederick, which is nice to see that he was recognised on her death certificate. It was one of the Roberts sons who informed on the certificate.
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Thanks for 'tidying up' this thread. Nice to know that he was acknowledged, and obviously known to the family. Judith
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My name is Mary Lee, GreatGrand Daughter of Frederick Lee son of Agnes McMillan. I've read some of your posts re the family (inc Agnes McMillan) and am a little confused re the father of Frederick Lee , Agnes' son. My records indicate his father was a Frederick Lee who arrived in Hobart in 1838 aboard the "Parsee" and died early 1841 of consumption. Your posts refer to the possible father of FL as Frederick Lillycroft Lindsay. Has any recent research (since 2014) confirmed this or else shed any light on this conflict?
I would much appreciate any comment or clarification as my progress on the Lee family history seems to have reached a fork in the road.
Mary Lee
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Hi Sam Sims
First up - welcome
Second - I think you might have posted your query on an unrelated thread. This one is chasing down mysterious Kellehers and Buckleys. But perhaps you are wanting to get in touch with a particular person who posted on this thread?
Third - I think you need to make two more posts to "finalise" your RC status. Just respond to this twice and you will be all good to go.
Cocksie
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Hi Mary,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
As Cocksie had spotted, you had managed to reply to a topic that was not related to your folks - I have now split it off and attached it to what I think is the correct thread.
I also found this topic which was also related to the same family
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683808.msg5282166#msg5282166
Regards
Sarah
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Hi,
wondering if you have found any information on Frederick Leslie Lee. He is my 3rd great grandfather. His mother Anges and some of her children were at the Eureka Stockade from our understanding and we are curious if Frederick was one cf them. My son is doing a book report and diorama on the Stockade and is keen to learn more. Any information you can give us would be extremely helpful.
Thank you for the help.
Rachel