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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: hollzy on Friday 11 April 14 11:10 BST (UK)
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I am researching the family history of Clement Levi Patmore and his wife Sarah nee Broadhurst. They arrived, with the family to Sydney Harbor on 12th February 1842, aboard the " Champion".
I have no information regarding two of their children-
Ruth Patmore
Birth 06 Aug 1835 in Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire, England. Nothing is known about her from the day the ship arrived, I can find no death or marriage.
also
Titus Patmore
Birth 1833 in Chesterton, Staffordshire, England I have no knowledge of him after his wife and child tragically drowned in 1860, his two remaining children were left in an institution.
I am hoping a kind Roots Chatter can point me in the right direction.
Thank you, Hollzy.
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Hi,
News report of the tragic drowning if you haven't seen it:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13036433?searchTerm=titus%20patmore&searchLimits=
Leanne
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Could this strange QLD death be him?
1912 C4051 Unknown (M) Patmore - - ** aged about 70 years
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/queryEntry.m?type=deaths
cheers :)
cupoflife
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These are the probable deaths of the parents.
7052/1875 PATMORE, Clement
Aged 72
Died LIVERPOOL
6431/1891 PATMORE, Sarah
Father
Mother Sarah
GOULBURN
Who was the informant on each of these certificates (presuming you have transcriptions of them) and what mention of the 2 missing people is made in the column children living and deceased?
Sue
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Could this strange QLD death be him?
1912 C4051 Unknown (M) Patmore - - ** aged about 70 years
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/queryEntry.m?type=deaths
cheers :)
cupoflife
I found the newspaper on this fella and it appears he was a H Patmore ???
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/53253414?searchTerm=%22patmore%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=patmore
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Hi,
News report of the tragic drowning if you haven't seen it:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13036433?searchTerm=titus%20patmore&searchLimits=
Leanne
Thank you Leanne, I have that report, also of his remaining two children being left in an institution, he had apparently deserted them. I have information for Titus including his marriage to Rose Forbes and the birth of his children. Nothing after the tragic deaths.
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Could this strange QLD death be him?
1912 C4051 Unknown (M) Patmore - - ** aged about 70 years
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/queryEntry.m?type=deaths
cheers :)
cupoflife
I found the newspaper on this fella and it appears he was a H Patmore ???
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/53253414?searchTerm=%22patmore%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=patmore
Thank you cupoflife, I have read both the pieces of information. There was a Patmore family in Qld, and also in Tasmania, at the time.
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These are the probable deaths of the parents.
7052/1875 PATMORE, Clement
Aged 72
Died LIVERPOOL
6431/1891 PATMORE, Sarah
Father
Mother Sarah
GOULBURN
Who was the informant on each of these certificates (presuming you have transcriptions of them) and what mention of the 2 missing people is made in the column children living and deceased?
Sue
Thank you Sue, that is a good idea, I will do that! I was following on from a Patmore family history that was partly done by others some years ago, I hadn't purchased the certificates for Clement and Sarah. The family is almost complete, I just needed the details of Ruth and Titus.
Ruth may have died on arrival or soon after, and it wasn't recorded, the family lost 2 female children aged 9 months and 15 years on the voyage but neither was Ruth.. thanks, hollzy
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How many daughters do you believe were living in 1892?
This is an In memoriam for the mother Sarah PATMORE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/98476800?searchTerm="sarah patmore"&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*
Inserted by her sons and daughters
Sue
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Can you name the sons and daughters that you have identified to be the children of Clement PATMORE and Sarah PATMORE nee BROADHURST please. It might be possible to find the missing Ruth and Titus through death notices of brothers and sisters.
Champion
PATMORE Clement 38 carpenter Protestant Northumberland
PATMORE Sarah 36 dressmaker
PATMORE Clement 13
PATMORE Edwin 12
PATMORE Titus 8
PATMORE Idodor 3 sons
PATMORE Ruth 5 daughter
BDM NSW births
V1843686 54 / 1843 PATMORE Jabez Clement / Sarah
V1846580 55 / 1846 PATMORE Emily Clement / Sarah
Census 1841 at Wolstanton Staffordshire
PATMORE Clement 35 carpenter
PATMORE Sarah 35
PATMORE Clement 10 brick m
PATMORE Edwin 10
PATMORE Titus 8
PATMORE Ruth 5
PATMORE Ezra 3
PATMORE Leah 5 / 12
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Can you name the sons and daughters that you have identified to be the children of Clement PATMORE and Sarah PATMORE nee BROADHURST please. It might be possible to find the missing Ruth and Titus through death notices of brothers and sisters.
Champion
PATMORE Clement 38 carpenter Protestant Northumberland
PATMORE Sarah 36 dressmaker
PATMORE Clement 13
PATMORE Edwin 12
PATMORE Titus 8
PATMORE Idodor 3 sons
PATMORE Ruth 5 daughter
BDM NSW births
V1843686 54 / 1843 PATMORE Jabez Clement / Sarah
V1846580 55 / 1846 PATMORE Emily Clement / Sarah
Census 1841 at Wolstanton Staffordshire
PATMORE Clement 35 carpenter
PATMORE Sarah 35
PATMORE Clement 10 brick m
PATMORE Edwin 10
PATMORE Titus 8
PATMORE Ruth 5
PATMORE Ezra 3
PATMORE Leah 5 / 12
So one daughter when they arrived and another born in Aust.
How many daughters do you believe were living in 1892?
This is an In memoriam for the mother Sarah PATMORE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/98476800?searchTerm="sarah patmore"&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*
Inserted by her sons and daughters
Sue
There was another brother Joseph
Death
8637/1914 PATMORE Joseph
Parents Clement& Sarah
At NEWCASTLE
Death notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/137304304?searchTerm="joseph patmore"&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||fromdd|||frommm|||fromyyyy=1914|||todd|||tomm|||toyyyy=1914|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||sortby
Aged 73 at death
Sue
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The NSW Gazette records an unclaimed letter at Sydney GPO for "Patmore, Edward or Titus" in 1880 (page 6475)
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These children to Titus PATMORE and Rose
V18851 53 / 1855 PATMORE Joseph
V18572108 44A / 1857 PATMORE Rosannah
3714 / 1857 PATMORE Rose St George
7386 / 1858 PATMORE Sarah J Goulburn
marriage
1641 / 1878 PATMORE Rosanne m. TATHAM Alfred Philip Newtown
death
7641 / 1946 TATHAM Rosanne PATMORE Ashfield
If this is Rosannah, daughter of Titus and Rose, the marriage certificate should mention father's name and maybe added note such as (dec).
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How many daughters do you believe were living in 1892?
This is an In memoriam for the mother Sarah PATMORE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/98476800?searchTerm="sarah patmore"&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*
Inserted by her sons and daughters
Sue
Hi Sue, To my calculations there would have been two living daughters in 1892.
Emily 1846-1935
and Lydia 1849-1943 Thanks Hollzy. PS. Oh! and maybe the missing Ruth?
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Can you name the sons and daughters that you have identified to be the children of Clement PATMORE and Sarah PATMORE nee BROADHURST please. It might be possible to find the missing Ruth and Titus through death notices of brothers and sisters.
Champion
PATMORE Clement 38 carpenter Protestant Northumberland
PATMORE Sarah 36 dressmaker
PATMORE Clement 13
PATMORE Edwin 12
PATMORE Titus 8
PATMORE Idodor 3 sons
PATMORE Ruth 5 daughter
BDM NSW births
V1843686 54 / 1843 PATMORE Jabez Clement / Sarah
V1846580 55 / 1846 PATMORE Emily Clement / Sarah
Census 1841 at Wolstanton Staffordshire
PATMORE Clement 35 carpenter
PATMORE Sarah 35
PATMORE Clement 10 brick m
PATMORE Edwin 10
PATMORE Titus 8
PATMORE Ruth 5
PATMORE Ezra 3
PATMORE Leah 5 / 12
So one daughter when they arrived and another born in Aust.
How many daughters do you believe were living in 1892?
This is an In memoriam for the mother Sarah PATMORE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/98476800?searchTerm="sarah patmore"&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*
Inserted by her sons and daughters
Sue
There was another brother Joseph
Death
8637/1914 PATMORE Joseph
Parents Clement& Sarah
At NEWCASTLE
Death notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/137304304?searchTerm="joseph patmore"&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||fromdd|||frommm|||fromyyyy=1914|||todd|||tomm|||toyyyy=1914|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||sortby
Aged 73 at death
Sue
Hi Sue, I believe the following is a list of children to Clement and Sarah.
Emma died at sea.
Clement Levi jnr.
Edwin
Titus
Ruth
Isodor/Ezra/Joseph is the same person. Isodor on the shipping list, ,Ezra on his MCert
and Ezra Joseph later in his life.
Leah died at sea
Jabez born NSW
Emily born NSW
Lydia born NSW
Thanks Hollzy.
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The NSW Gazette records an unclaimed letter at Sydney GPO for "Patmore, Edward or Titus" in 1880 (page 6475)
Thank you, Thank you, I had the information Edward or Titus Patmore, 1880 Government gazette, and I couldn't work out what it was...great. So it was an unclaimed letter! hollzy
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These children to Titus PATMORE and Rose
V18851 53 / 1855 PATMORE Joseph
V18572108 44A / 1857 PATMORE Rosannah
3714 / 1857 PATMORE Rose St George
7386 / 1858 PATMORE Sarah J Goulburn
marriage
1641 / 1878 PATMORE Rosanne m. TATHAM Alfred Philip Newtown
death
7641 / 1946 TATHAM Rosanne PATMORE Ashfield
If this is Rosannah, daughter of Titus and Rose, the marriage certificate should mention father's name and maybe added note such as (dec).
Thank you, Much appreciated,I will have to get a couple of certs.
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These children to Titus PATMORE and Rose
V18851 53 / 1855 PATMORE Joseph
V18572108 44A / 1857 PATMORE Rosannah
3714 / 1857 PATMORE Rose St George
7386 / 1858 PATMORE Sarah J Goulburn
marriage
1641 / 1878 PATMORE Rosanne m. TATHAM Alfred Philip Newtown
death
7641 / 1946 TATHAM Rosanne PATMORE Ashfield
If this is Rosannah, daughter of Titus and Rose, the marriage certificate should mention father's name and maybe added note such as (dec).
Of course , then again, Rosanna may have had no knowledge of her father's death or otherwise, having been placed in the Randwick Institution with her brother Joseph after her mother died. >:(
Sue
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In case you were not aware a less expensive alternative to ordering a copy of the origina certificatel is through a Transcription Agent
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
Here is a link to what you may find on
Australian certificates-
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Sue
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Hi Sue, I believe the following is a list of children to Clement and Sarah.
Emma died at sea.
Clement Levi jnr.
Edwin
Titus
Ruth
Isodor/Ezra/Joseph is the same person. Isodor on the shipping list, ,Ezra on his MCert
and Ezra Joseph later in his life.
Leah died at sea
Jabez born NSW
Emily born NSW
Lydia born NSW
Thanks Hollzy.
What is the source of your information about the daughter Lydia?
This death is the only Lydia nee Patmore I can see,
2309/1943 MCCONNELL Lydia
Parents Edwin & Sarah
At GOULBURN
Sue
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These children to Titus PATMORE and Rose
V18851 53 / 1855 PATMORE Joseph
V18572108 44A / 1857 PATMORE Rosannah
3714 / 1857 PATMORE Rose St George
7386 / 1858 PATMORE Sarah J Goulburn
marriage
1641 / 1878 PATMORE Rosanne m. TATHAM Alfred Philip Newtown
death
7641 / 1946 TATHAM Rosanne PATMORE Ashfield
If this is Rosannah, daughter of Titus and Rose, the marriage certificate should mention father's name and maybe added note such as (dec).
Of course , then again, Rosanna may have had no knowledge of her father's death or otherwise, having been placed in the Randwick Institution with her brother Joseph after her mother died. >:(
Sue
Thanks Sue, Yes they are my thoughts exactly.
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Hi Sue, I believe the following is a list of children to Clement and Sarah.
Emma died at sea.
Clement Levi jnr.
Edwin
Titus
Ruth
Isodor/Ezra/Joseph is the same person. Isodor on the shipping list, ,Ezra on his MCert
and Ezra Joseph later in his life.
Leah died at sea
Jabez born NSW
Emily born NSW
Lydia born NSW
Thanks Hollzy.
What is the source of your information about the daughter Lydia?
This death is the only Lydia nee Patmore I can see,
2309/1943 MCCONNELL Lydia
Parents Edwin & Sarah
At GOULBURN
Sue
This is the birth of Lydia. from her great great niece.
V18482049 55 1848 PALMER Lydia parents- Clement and Sarah It has been mis transcribed.
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In case you were not aware a less expensive alternative to ordering a copy of the origina certificatel is through a Transcription Agent
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
Here is a link to what you may find on
Australian certificates-
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Sue
Thanks Sue, I'm very interested. Hollzy
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This is the birth of Lydia. from her great great niece.
V18482049 55 1848 PALMER Lydia parents- Clement and Sarah It has been mis transcribed.
I see the birth now thank you.
Is the death incorrect regarding parents?
Sue
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The file from the Randwick Asylum for Joseph and Rosannah might be useful.
They would be discharged into the care of someone. That person, maybe family?, would have reason to want to locate Titus, if he was around, and file might have give some clue.
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[
I see the birth now thank you.
Is the death incorrect regarding parents?
Sue
[/quote]
Yes! as far as I can tell, they have used her brother's name Edwin, and her mothers name Sarah, and it has confused people. I do not know if that is what was written on the DC. Hollzy
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The file from the Randwick Asylum for Joseph and Rosannah might be useful.
They would be discharged into the care of someone. That person, maybe family?, would have reason to want to locate Titus, if he was around, and file might have give some clue.
Thank you I will follow that up..
Hollzy.
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Joseph and Rosanna were discharge from Randwick in 1860 aged 5 and 3 respectively so they couldn't have been in there too long. Makes you think they were claimed by family- perhaps their father. You'd have to get the records to see if there is further detail.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchhits.aspx?table=Child%20Care%20and%20Protection&id=74&frm=1&query=Surname:patmore (http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchhits.aspx?table=Child%20Care%20and%20Protection&id=74&frm=1&query=Surname:patmore)
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Joseph and Rosanna were discharge from Randwick in 1860 aged 5 and 3 respectively so they couldn't have been in there too long. Makes you think they were claimed by family- perhaps their father. You'd have to get the records to see if there is further detail.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchhits.aspx?table=Child%20Care%20and%20Protection&id=74&frm=1&query=Surname:patmore (http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchhits.aspx?table=Child%20Care%20and%20Protection&id=74&frm=1&query=Surname:patmore)
The above is incorrect, that is the date they were admitted to Randwick - obviously an error on the database.
They both remained there until they were 13yo's & then apprenticed out.
The file from the Randwick Asylum for Joseph and Rosannah might be useful. They would be discharged into the care of someone. That person, maybe family?, would have reason to want to locate Titus, if he was around, and file might have give some clue.
Their records from the Randwick Asylum for Destitute Children:
Joseph PATMORE - http://postimg.org/image/5l7g520c3/full/
Rosanna PATMORE - http://postimg.org/image/wss7w685f/full/
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When Joseph the son of Titus and Rose died in country Qld, the informant knew enough about him to list his mother’s maiden name correctly, but had his father as Ezra ( as we are aware-AKA Joseph).
1928 C1917 Joseph PATMORE
Father Ezra Patmore
Mother- Forbes **
born New South Wales
Aged 76 years
Sue
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Small obit for Joseph PATMORE, d 1928.
He had been in Kingaroy area for about 16 years, before that at Singleton NSW. Survived by four sons and a daughter all in NSW.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/81116840
Judith
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Joseph and Rosanna were discharge from Randwick in 1860 aged 5 and 3 respectively so they couldn't have been in there too long. Makes you think they were claimed by family- perhaps their father. You'd have to get the records to see if there is further detail.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchhits.aspx?table=Child%20Care%20and%20Protection&id=74&frm=1&query=Surname:patmore (http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchhits.aspx?table=Child%20Care%20and%20Protection&id=74&frm=1&query=Surname:patmore)
I have the records of their discharge,
Rosanna was discharged in1870 aged 13 apprenticed to Mr.John Murray of Balmain.
Joseph was apprenticed aged 13 in 1869 to Mr. W.Waddell of Singleton. Hollzy
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TROVE has lots of mentions of a Joseph PATMORE in Singleton. Some of the mentions seem to be the same man whose death Sue found and some are his son Joseph Stanley PATMORE - bit hard to work out which is which in some of the articles.
NSW BMD has a Joseph Stanley born to Joseph PATMORE and Emily Elizabeth.
In 1889 Joseph is charged with deserting his wife Emily Elizabeth
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18967490
in 1895 Joseph is before the court charges with not supporting his wife Emily Elizabeth PATMORE and their six children.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/123935144
Judith
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Thanks Sue, Yes, I have several certificates for this family, and the names seemed to be all mixed.
I do know that Ezra was not Titus, and Titus was definitely the father of said Joseph. Hollzy
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TROVE has lots of mentions of a Joseph PATMORE in Singleton. Some of the mentions seem to be the same man whose death Sue found and some are his son Joseph Stanley PATMORE - bit hard to work out which is which in some of the articles.
NSW BMD has a Joseph Stanley born to Joseph PATMORE and Emily Elizabeth.
In 1889 Joseph is charged with deserting his wife Emily Elizabeth
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18967490
in 1895 Joseph is before the court charges with not supporting his wife Emily Elizabeth PATMORE and their six children.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/123935144
Judith
Thanks Judith, Yes, there are 4 Josephs, that I know of, in this family, all connected to different siblings. Hollzy
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Hmmm - so we have at least two Josephs - which one are we looking for ???
The one who died, registered at Newcastle 1914 - son of Clement and Sarah.
According to the newspaper death notice this man was aged 73 giving a birthdate abt 1841.
The one Sue found d 1928 in Qld - son of Ezra and "Forbes".
The age at death is given as 76, thus a birthdate abt 1852.
So the names for parents for the 1928 death are not correct?
I'm confused................... I think I am anyway. :-\
Judith
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Below is the divorce proceedings for Joseph S. Patmore whose marriage also was not a happy affair.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/93048122?searchTerm="patmore v patmore"&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*
His mother Emily is mentioned importantly therein (surnamed LYFORD at that time)
However, I think the only Joseph Patmore of our immediate interest at the moment is the one who was born to Titus and Rose and died in Qld.
Rose 's maiden name was FORBES ;D
Clement and Sarah had a Joseph , a brother to Titus.
Titus and Rose had a son Joseph.
It is he who died in QLD (ADDING I speculate this to be the case ::)
Sue
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Hi Judith, my initial request was for any information on Titus and Ruth Patmore, who are brother and sister.
Ruth, born August 1835 in England.
I have no further info on her since she came to Australia with her family, age 5 years.
My thoughts are that she may have died soon after they arrived in NSW in 1842?
Titus was came with his family also and married in NSW.
He had 3 children, his wife Rose Forbes and one child died in a drowning accident in 1860,Titus then deserted his remaining children. Nothing more is known about him. His 2 remaining children were Rosanna and Joseph. I have the information on them, but I am looking for the history of Titus after this point. Thanks Hollzy.
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Sue
Just to clarify, my connection is through Joseph/Ezra/Isodor/Cypra born Eng. 1838 died NSW 1914
He is not the subject of my query.
My enquiry was to the whereabouts of two of his siblings...Titus/Litus, and Ruth.
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Sue Titus and Rose had a son Joseph, he is the one who died in Queensland. Hollzy
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ;D
Thank you, Hollzy and Sue.
So the parent names on the 1928 Qld registration are incorrect?
Judith
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Below is the divorce proceedings for Joseph S. Patmore whose marriage also was not a happy affair.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/93048122?searchTerm="patmore v patmore"&searchLimits=l-textSearchScope=*ignore*%7C*ignore*|||l-word=*ignore*%7C*ignore*
His mother Emily is mentioned importantly therein (surnamed LYFORD at that time)
However, I think the only Joseph Patmore of our immediate interest at the moment is the one who was born to Titus and Rose and died in Qld.
Rose 's maiden name was FORBES ;D
Clement and Sarah had a Joseph , a brother to Titus.
Titus and Rose had a son Joseph.
It is he who died in QLD (ADDING I speculate this to be the case ::)
Sue
Sue Titus and Rose had a son Joseph, he is the one who died in Queensland. Hollzy
Yes.
Sue
Just to clarify, my connection is through Joseph/Ezra/Isodor/Cypra born Eng. 1838 died NSW 1914
He is not the subject of my query.
My enquiry was to the whereabouts of two of his siblings...Titus/Litus, and Ruth.
Yes, I have been able to read the thread thoroughly and there is really no need to repeat the vital elements.
Our endeavours have been to search through the network of the family for clues, as this technique often results in successful outcomes for those requesting help in the forum.
There are many queries which can never be answered fully and perhaps yours is one of them.
Sue
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ;D
Thank you, Hollzy and Sue.
So the parent names on the 1928 Qld registration are incorrect?
Judith
Yes, it should have been Titus Patmore and Rose Forbes. Hollzy.
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[/quote]
Yes, I have been able to read the thread thoroughly and there is really no need to repeat the vital elements.
Our endeavours have been to search through the network of the family for clues, as this technique often results in successful outcomes for those requesting help in the forum.
There are many queries which can never be answered fully and perhaps yours is one of them.
Sue
My sincerest apologies, I did not in any way mean to offend. I appreciate all replies to my query, and understand the process of elimination of family members.I did not mean to repeat myself. I was trying to catch up, and answer all the replies. Sorry. hollzy.
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Thank you hollzy.
It seems to me the step of ordering the transcriptions of Death Certificates of Clement and Sarah PATMORE is the only option at this stage. There is probably little else to be found on the public record and the information on the certificates about their children may at least give you time-frame for the 2 missing people. If, of course, this information is known to the person informing ::)
Sue
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Thanks Sue, I think that might be the solution, it will either give up some information or not. Hollzy.
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Thank you hollzy.
It seems to me the step of ordering the transcriptions of Death Certificates of Clement and Sarah PATMORE is the only option at this stage. There is probably little else to be found on the public record and the information on the certificates about their children may at least give you time-frame for the 2 missing people. If, of course, this information is known to the person informing ::)
Hi All,
Just an update to say, Clement Patmore had no information on his death transcript, he was in Randwick Asylum when he died, but Sarah had a little more detail, going by the number of males and females living and deceased Titus and Ruth were both deceased by the time of her death. Thank you all for your help. Case closed..