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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: KiwiRose on Wednesday 09 April 14 23:12 BST (UK)
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I have just viewed a copy of the marriage certificate of Jemima Redmond (father, Christopher Redmond) and William McNeill (father, William McNeill) in order to find out more about Jemima’s Redmond family. I was hoping to find a Redmond witness.
Details from the certificate follow:
On 16 Nov 1864, Jemima Redmond married William McNeill. Both were “full age”, Jemima was a house servant living in Buckna and William a labourer living in Cairnalbana (sic). Jemima signed her name and William, his mark. Witnesses were David McNeill and John McClure or McClune.
Both fathers were farmers.
The witness, John McClure/ McClune, could be a connection of either the Redmond or McNeill side.
According to the 1901/11 census, Jemima would have been born 1845/46 in Co Antrim. Searching for a record of Jemima’s baptism in Antrim has not yielded any results. Jemima, William and family farmed in Munie North, Glenarm.
Jemima’s father, Christopher Redmond, may or may not be the older Christopher in the thread from KDrive titled: Redmonds / Broughshane Family History - RootsChat . (Sorry but I don’t know how to add the link.) However, there was no mention of a Jemima in that thread. Maybe she fell out with her family or could there have been yet another Christopher Redmond in the district who fathered Jemima?
I would appreciate any help or suggestions to enable me to sort out the Christopher Redmonds and find Jemima’s Redmond family.
Regards
KiwiRose
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Kdrive's original post:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=496626.0
I'll check my copy of Presbyterianism in Buckna for you tomorrow, to see if there is any mention of Jemima in the communicants lists.
A Christopher Redmond married a Hannah McMillan in Buckna in 1847, so worth considering, albeit if Jemima was FA at marriage, then her birth was more likely c1843.
A John McClure married in Buckna in 1857.
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Thank you scotsmum for posting the link.
Regards
KiwiRose.
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Sorry, nothing jumping out on Jemima.
Because of the surnames/locations/timescale, just adding the following from other notes I have:
A James Blair and Rose McClure married in Racavan district in 1860, before heading to Scotland. James' parents were possibly a James Blair and Nancy McNeill who lived in Carnalbanagh. Rose seems to link with McClures in Tamybuck townland. Her parents were Samuel McClure and Jane Arthur.
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or could there have been yet another Christopher Redmond in the district who fathered Jemima?
KiwiRose
None obvious at moment. The Christopher of the other thread died in 1858. Your Jemima married in 1864, and stated 'Farmer' as her father's occupation - I don't suppose it was bracketed with 'deceased' ?
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Thank you for all your help and information, scotsmum.
On Jemima and William's marriage certificate neither of their fathers has ‘deceased’ written beside their names or occupation. Would it have been expected to put ‘deceased’ if the father had died?
I wonder if the Christopher Redmond (died 1858) who married Hannah McMillan on 5 June 1847 in Buckna was a widower as suggested in KDrive’s thread? Maybe when I have a little more evidence it might be worth using some of my credits to view his marriage certificate.
It could be that the witness, John McClure, was a McNeill connection due to Nancy (McNeill) Blair’s son James marrying a Rose McClure. Then again John McClure could just have been a good friend of the groom, William.
Does anyone know what the usual protocol for selecting witnesses would have been for Antrim Presbyterian weddings in the 1860’s?
Since first posting I have used Groni to search for any further Redmond marriages in Registration District, Ballymena, between the years 1845 to 1880. I couldn’t narrow it down to Buckna. There were 18 marriages.
Narrowing the marriage years closer to Jemima’s 1864 date to look for possible siblings from 1862 to 1869 there was a James(62), Mary(63), Christopher(64), Jemima herself(64), Elizabeth(66), Samuel(66)and finally in 1869, Ellen.
Of the above Redmond marriages Samuel and Ellen have been eliminated as siblings. Familysearch is having technical difficulties at the moment so it is not possible to check out the fathers of the others. I am aware that Christopher, who married in 1864, also had a father Christopher but at this stage don’t know exactly where he married. He could possibly be a sibling of Jemima’s.
Kind regards
KiwiRose
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2017 Update on my Jemima’s father, Christopher Redmond.
I now have a copy of the marriage record of Christopher Redmond and Hannah McMillan on Jan 5 1847. Unfortunately it is rather faint.
Details from the copy are -
Christopher Redmond, Hannah McMillan, marriage, 5 June, 1847. A Farmer. By licence. Solemnized at Buckna, Parish of Rathcavan. Fathers: John Redmond, farmer, Alexander McMillan , farmer.
Christopher is a widower? and Hannah is a spinster, both full age. Witnesses: David Kelly and David Beggs. Bride is residing in Tanneybrack , Parish of Rathcavan. Groom is residing Townland of Aughafattan.
This information may help the Rootschatter, KDrive on his Hannah Jane Hamill / Christopher Redmond family research.
I was hoping to attach a snippet of Christopher's faint details regarding his marital status however it would not happen. I would have liked Rootschatters to confirm the faint word was widower. Maybe GRONI has doctored their purchased certificates so no part of the original image can be copied.
Regards,
KiwiRose
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I was hoping to attach a snippet of Christopher's faint details regarding his marital status however it would not happen. I would have liked Rootschatters to confirm the faint word was widower. Maybe GRONI has doctored their purchased certificates so no part of the original image can be copied.
No, they haven't 'doctored' their certificates.
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Bride is residing in Tanneybrack
Just to confirm, this is another known variant for Tamybuck townland (other spellings Tamn(e)ybrack or Tamneybrake).
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I was hoping to attach a snippet of Christopher's faint details regarding his marital status however it would not happen
The instructions at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=459330.0 may help.
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According to headstone (located 1st Broughshane Presbyterian church) inscription transcribed at:
http://thebraid.com/genealogy.aspx
Hannah Redmond's (nee McMillan) father, Alex McMillan, died 23/2/1854 aged 79.
A son, William A Redmond, died in 1868 aged 20.
Her mother, Mary, died in 1869 aged 88.
A daughter, Annie, died in 1890, aged 39.
Hannah herself died in 1901, aged 84. From her death certificate, she died at Tamybuck and her son in law A Knox was present at death. From marriage certificate, Alexander Knox married Harriet Redmond at Buckna Presbyterian church on 26/8/1886. Witnesses were a Bella Knox and Thomas Buick.
In Buckna visitation/communicants records, McMullin seems to be used rather than McMillan.
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Also, from same site as my previous post, at St Patrick's C of I, Broughshane:
Erected, in memory of, Christopher Redmond, of Claggan who died in March 1858, aged 52 ...years Also his son Christopher who died 2nd December 1879 aged 43 years...
The Christopher jnr above had a wife, Hannah, who died in 1928 aged 78.
If he was the Christopher who married in 1864, his wife was Jane Hannah Hamill.
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Thank you scotmum for all your additional information and help.
If Christopher Jnr died aged 43 in Dec 1879 then he would have been born in c1836. This was well before his father Christopher Snr's 1847 marriage to Hannah McMullan. Jemima who was also born before the 1847 marriage would therefore probably be a full sibling of Christopher Jnr.
I will study the "How to attach....." and see if I can master it. As usual, it was my lack of computer skills that was the problem when trying to paste the snippet of Christopher Snr's 1847 marriage certificate. Sorry GRONI for blaming you!
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
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It has been a few years, and you have probably long since established that Christopher's 1847 marriage did indeed describe him as widower.
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Scotsmum, thank you for your interest in my Redmond thread.
Yes, although it is somewhat faint it looks like Christopher was a widower. It helps to confirm his marital status as his son Christopher Jnr was born c1836 some 11 years before his father’s 1847 marriage.
Although the two Redmond women below named their father as Christopher Redmond, a farmer, when they married in 1866 and 1864, neither were mentioned in the 1858 will.
Elizabeth Redmond’s first-born son was named Samuel Redmond Cupples. None of her six sons were given the name Christopher. Elizabeth b c1839, married in 1866 and living in Clonetrace at the time, died 1887 in Clonetrace.
Jemima Redmond had six McNeill children. Neither of her two sons had the name Christopher, nor did any of her six children have Jemima’s maiden name. Jemima was born c1845, married 1864 a house servant living in Buckna at the time, and died 1928 probably in Munie North, Glenarm.
Elizabeth and Jemima Redmond’s marriage witnesses have not given me any obvious clues regarding their Redmond family connections.
Should Elizabeth and Jemima be the daughters of the above Christopher Redmond they would have been only around 18 and 13 years old at his 1858 death and surely in need of some financial support. The girls’ mother must have died between Jemima’s c1845 birth and their father’s remarriage in June 1847.
Were the two girls fostered out as they would only have been c6 yrs and Jemima, a toddler in 1847? Did both girls remain with and continue to be cared for by their foster family after Christopher’s remarriage?
Christopher named all his children in his will with the exception of Elizabeth and Jemima. He included Mary Carpenter, a married daughter, as well as Christopher Jnr who were both from his first marriage. Elizabeth and Jemima’s exclusion continues to puzzle me if they are indeed his daughters.
Maybe there really was another Christopher Redmond in the same district who was their father, although Rootchatters have not found any evidence of one. I remain stumped!
Kind regards,
KiwiRose
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Thinking outside the box for a moment. I wonder if Elizabeth and Jemima could have been born to Hannah, albeit she was a spinster, before her marriage to Christopher? The girls could have then been brought up with Christopher as their step dad, but believing he was their dad, so naming him as such at their marriages. If it was a situation like this, it could then, perhaps, account for him not including them in his will, as they were not his actual children.
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Scotsmum. Thinking outside the box often can bring down a brickwall. Thanks for your suggestion that Christopher could have been a stepdad. I hadn’t thought of that possibility so researched the idea.
Hannah married widowed Christopher Redmond in 1847.
Hannah was 83yrs when she died in 1901, so would have been born c1817. If Elizabeth Redmond, later Cupples, was born c1839 (based on her age at death) Hannah would have been c22yrs old and at Jemima’s 1843-1845 birth she’d have been c26yrs, so your tip is a probability.
Two of Hannah’s children had died before Hannah: William in 1868 and a married daughter, Annie Adams in 1890. Also, a possible married daughter or step daughter the above Elizabeth in 1887.
Headstone:
See also Reply 10.
Hannah erected a Redmond/McMullan headstone at the First Broughshane Presbyterian Church in memory of her parents and her children, William and Annie (Adams). I’m unsure if the Thomas Redmond mentioned in his father Christopher Redmond’s 1858 will was from the first family or is a child of Hannah’s. He remains a mystery son. Perhaps he emigrated as I have not found him in any Antrim search. Maybe he died between 1958 and civil registration in 1865. No Thomas on the headstone.
At the same church was a Cupples headstone that included Elizabeth (Redmond) Cupples d 1887 erected by Elizabeth’s husband, Joseph.
Will:
I also checked out Hannah’s Redmond’s (nee McMullan) will, dated 12 Sept 1891. She only mentions her daughter Harriet Knox and a widowed ‘niece’ Mrs Christopher Redmond (Hannah Jane nee Hamill). She requested Harriet to pay a Mary Eliza Morton? the sum of €10.
Hannah’s will must have caused a family dispute as there is a case reported in the Ballymena Weekly Telegraph of Nov 9th 1901 involving her executors, Harriet Knox and Robert Montgomery against Thomas Adams who was Hannah’s son in law. I could only view a snippet.
Harriet Knox, Hannah’s only proven surviving child, and family seem to have emigrated to NSW, Australia around 1911.
Names:
None of Elizabeth (Redmond) Cupples or Jemima’s (Redmond) McNeill’s daughters had the name Hannah.
Unfortunately, after researching the idea that Hannah was Elizabeth and Jemima’s mother it now seems less likely.
As not many Presbyterian churches have their pre-registration surviving birth, baptism, and marriage records online then, other than helpful online wills, researching outside civil registration in Ireland to verify relationships is not easy. I ‘m so grateful that irishgenealogy.ie has all the earliest civil marriage records free on line. The information contained in the marriage records has proven to be very valuable, especially with my common Co. Antrim surnames. I can’t wait for them to make available the 1864 – 1870 death records. Maybe I’ll spot a clue in one of these death records when available.
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
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Hannah herself died in 1901, aged 84. From her death certificate, she died at Tamybuck and her son in law A Knox was present at death.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1901/05739/4620186.pdf
Hannah was 83yrs when she died in 1901, so would have been born c1823.
??
Hannah was 84, so born c1817.
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Kiltaglassan,
Whoops! You are correct, Hannah would have been born c1817.
I have corrected the glaring error in my Reply 16. Thank you for alerting me to the error.
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.
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Continuing outside the box for a moment......it was not unusual for a widow/er to be found re-marrying within a year of their late spouse's death or to have been widowed more than once and re-married more than once. I have come across several such examples.
At the moment, the assumption seems to be that Hannah was Christopher Redmond's second wife, when, if indeed he was even the same Christopher listed by Jemima and Elizabeth, perhaps she was his third.
So, if Jemima and Elizabeth were born pre Christopher's marriage to Hannah in1847, but post Christopher juniors c1830s birth, this allows for the possibility that Christopher snr may have been married in-between and for any potential second wife to have brought two daughters to the marriage (if such a second wife existed, she too may have been widowed).
The above is obviously just an attempt to show that you might consider other solutions/possibilities for your conundrum of Jemima and Elizabeth both stating their father was a Christopher/Christie Redmond (Elizabeth's marriage record has Christie rather than Christopher), yet neither of them being included in the will of the, at present, only potential candidate, the widower Christopher Redmond who married again in 1847, nor his wife of 1847's will either.
Of course, the Christopher/Christie named by Jemima and Elizabeth could have been an entirely different and as yet unaccounted for chap, or, just as easily, have been a 'red herring' made up father's first and/or second name, and they both have been daughters of an unmarried Redmond or otherwise female, for example.
Re Cupples...I noticed that Samuel Cupples born 1866 has Samuel Redmond Cupples on his headstone and you also referred to him as such. His birth registration was only recorded as Samuel Cupples (albeit Redmond could have been included in any subsequent baptism).
Do you know if any of Jemima or Elizabeth's descendants have gone down the DNA route?
On a point of interest and for further consideration given use of Christie in Elizabeth's marriage record, Christopher jnr, when registering birth of a daughter Barbara in 1867, gives his full name as Christopher albeit signs as Christy, perhaps his father used similar.
Potential red herrings but for additional consideration and checking, given the use of Barbara as forename for one of Christopher jnr's children, and mention previously that Christopher snr had links to property in Seapatrick, County Down, I wonder if there is any significance to a marriage in the Diocese of Armagh in 1829 of a Christopher Redmond to a Barbara Dick. Or that in the same Diocese in 1832, a Jemima Redmond married.
In one visitation entry note in Presbyterianism in Buckna book for 1850, a family of Mr Redmond + wife +
children, the minister has 'Episcopalian' recorded beside them.
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Scotsmum,
Thanks for all your thoughts and ideas as to how I could further research my Redmond puzzle. I do appreciate your assistance.
At the moment, the assumption seems to be that Hannah was Christopher Redmond's second wife, when, if indeed he was even the same Christopher listed by Jemima and Elizabeth, perhaps she was his third.
So, if Jemima and Elizabeth were born pre Christopher's marriage to Hannah in1847, but post Christopher juniors c1830s birth, this allows for the possibility that Christopher snr may have been married in-between and for any potential second wife to have brought two daughters to the marriage (if such a second wife existed, she too may have been widowed).
The idea that Christopher Snr had an in-between wife who maybe brought two daughters to the marriage seems to be a strong possibility now well worth investigating. Establishing more accurate dates of the birth/christening for Christopher Jnr, Elizabeth and Jemima could well be a breakthrough though I am doubtful records still exist or be found online. Presumably the names of both parents would be included on the record. I long ago learned that someone’s age in Census/ death records are variable and often best estimates!
In one visitation entry note in Presbyterianism in Buckna book for 1850, a family of Mr Redmond + wife + children, the minister has 'Episcopalian' recorded beside them.
I have little knowledge of what exactly an Episcopalian is other than presuming it is a person associated with a protestant branch of the Anglican church. Church of Ireland? (Thanks to a very, very quick google search.)
Do you know if any of Jemima or Elizabeth's descendants have gone down the DNA route?
I have no knowledge of any of Christopher Jnr, Elizabeth (Redmond) Cupples descendants going down the DNA route. I’m aware that one descendant of Jemima (Redmond) McNeill’s (6th generation) has had a DNA test but I need to find out more details. Working out DNA connections is a mystery for me. Not sure as to how useful the DNA would be with someone being seven generations away from Christopher Snr, presuming Christopher is Jemima’s birth father, or in eliminating him.
I’m going to be busy researching all the new Redmond possibilities.
Kind regards,
KiwiRose.