RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Mouse 53 on Monday 07 April 14 00:57 BST (UK)
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Looking for photos and any information on my wife's grandfather in Australia
Joseph (Joe) Francis MacMahon/McMahon
Born Sandhurst (Bendigo) 21/10/1862
Died Auckland 21/11/1918
Married Violet Lodder in Auckland (Father A Lodder publican of Wellington NZ)
Searches show that there may be a portrait of him in the Queensland Punch
Regards
M
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Looking for photos and any information on my wife's grandfather in Australia
Joseph (Joe) Francis MacMahon/McMahon
Born Sandhurst (Bendigo) 21/10/1862
Died Auckland 21/11/1918
Married Violet Lodder in Auckland (Father A Lodder publican of Wellington NZ)
Searches show that there may be a portrait of him in the Queensland Punch
Regards
M
What sort of information exactly where you hoping to find? ;D
Sue
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Does this sound like the right birth
MCMAHON Francis
Father Ponsonby
Mother Bridget EGAN
Birth Place CAST
Year 1862
Reg Number 13344
Sue
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Joseph Francis was aged 50 when he married Violet - what does the marriage cert tell you about his status? Was he a bachelor or a widower?
Debra :)
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"Searches show that there may be a portrait of him in the Queensland Punch" ???
What searches
Neil
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Hi
Thanks for letting me know by private message that the birth I have listed is not correct.
I have looked again for a birth in Sandhurst in 1862 and nothing quite matches.
It seems you know the parents' names if you know the one I have found in incorrect.
Would you like to share that with us and also perhaps look at my question in Reply #1
That is-
What sort of information exactly where you hoping to find?
Sue
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Just for everyone's general information ;D----
After another PM from Mouse 53, it seems that the purpose of the inquiry is specifically to locate a photo.
Sue
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Ye, Yeh, Yeh,...I got one too (1..2) ;D
The searches relate to the same photo ::)
Except after searching TROVE I can not find any photo and the Magazine PUNCH was actually merged with another which ran from 1882 - 1889. ???
There are mentions of two brothers one being a Joseph Francis MacMahon if someone could possibly PM Mouse to see if these are correct persons?
Neil ::)
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It can be quite difficult to understand the workings of R'chat when one is a beginner.
I have suggested to mouse 53 the open board is the right place for posts.
I'm sure he/she will get things going properly soon and we will all be able to help.
Sue
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Mouse try the State Library Queensland, they might be able to help. Contact details on the below link including email address for them.
http://www.slq.qld.gov.au/
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Sorry all I keep hitting the wrong button :(
Joseph is the brother of William, James and Charles Also brother to John (Eldest) Mary Ann and an adopted sister Alice Roberts James started the company and was joined by Charles then Joseph then by William
Regards
M
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There is also a thread on the NZ board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683106.0
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Yes that is also mine as Joseph travelled all over the world and as he was born in Australia and married and died in New Zealand I thought I should include both countys
Regards
M
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Have to confess here mouse53, I'm a bit in the dark here.
What company are you referring to?
What searches have you made to suggest there is a photo?
There is not a birth registered in Sandhurst to the couple whose names you PMed me of a child named Joseph Francis Mac/McMahon in 1862. Perhaps the registration process failed somewhere along the line. However I gather this incongruity is not your main interest at present.
Sue
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Looking for photos and any information on my wife's grandfather in Australia
Joseph (Joe) Francis MacMahon/McMahon
Born Sandhurst (Bendigo) 21/10/1862
Died Auckland 21/11/1918
Married Violet Lodder in Auckland (Father A Lodder publican of Wellington NZ)
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mimage/10hist.html
"Joseph Francis Macmahon was born on 20 October 1864 at
Bendigo in the colony of Victoria. He joined his older
brothers James and Charles in the business of
theatrical management. The three brothers often
worked together in managing their various theatrical
enterprises, but sometimes worked individually. Among
their ventures was the partnership with actor-manager
George Leitch, touring The Silver King and other plays
through New Zealand in 1885, and the introduction of
Edison's phonograph to Australia and New Zealand in
1890-91. After the 1896-97 tour of the Cinematographe,
Joseph returned to managing theatrical companies on
tour. He does not appear to have been associated with
film exhibition again until about 1907. In 1911 the
Macmahon Brothers together with M.J. Donnelly
opened the New Theatre in Manners Street, Wellington,
New Zealand's first "continuous pictures" show. Later
that year Joseph went into partnership with Wellington
publican Arthur Lodder, and built the Queen's Theatre in
Auckland. Moving north to manage this theatre, he was
also involved in building the Princess Theatre two
years later. He managed both theatres until he died
from pneumonia following influenza on 22 November
1918 in his 55th year."
If this is where the birth information is from, note that it says 1864
Raylen
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The only items I found that concerned a Joseph Francis MacMahon was within a civil suit. The Brothers James and Joseph were suing several people in one suit for breach of contract. This involved the setting up of a Theatre, Dance Hall with roof top Garden.
No finds however on a Photograph.
Have you approached the NZ National Archives for mentions, the brothers and their interests were noteworthy in the setup of the early Film Industry there?
Neil
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I will have to follow up with Bendigo as they may be mistaken on the year of birth for all the children On their mother's death notice in the records Joseph is showing as aged 21 at the time of her death in 1885 and if this is correct then you are right and they have incorrectly calculated the year of birth. Certainly makes it hard to get the correct info.
Regards
Martin
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There's a descriptive biog about the brothers here - at death of Charles
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article120297439
And here on death of Joseph
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article123140233
regards,
Ros
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Here is the death of Charles.
MCMAHON Charles
Father Mcmahon Jno
Mother Mary Ann DELANEY
Age 56
Death Place: Melb E
Year 1917
Reg. 5844
This is not the father's name you sent to me. However......
There are no births registered in Vic for John MCMAHON and Mary DELANEY in that time-frame.
Sue
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And here on death of Joseph
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article123140233
The above article has his name as Joseph Travers MacMahon and not Joseph Francis ???
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And here on death of Joseph
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article123140233
The above article has his name as Joseph Travers MacMahon and not Joseph Francis ???
Yes, there are more than one reference to him with that second given name.
When Charles died he left a will which favoured and actress names Marie Adelaide Veronica May DIETRICHSON (professionally known as May GRANVILLE) ;D
There is no mention of family contained in the digitised document.
Sue
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His name was definitely Joseph Francis MacMahon as I have the original certified copy copy of his daughters birth and he is shown as 53 years old at this time 21/7/1921 so he must have been born in 1864 Also he is showing as been 21 at the time of his mothers death in 1885 so both confirm he was born in 1884 . A lot of conflicting information is showing in newspapers. One even saying that he was 57 when he died. I can not get any birth information from BDM Victoria so he may not have been registered
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Obit for James in 1915
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article20022362
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article120807653
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article123090549
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15574910
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1514150
and some victorian relatives http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article94725179
and death notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28111557
cheers,
Ros
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I can not get any birth information from BDM Victoria so he may not have been registered
MARTIN
Hi Martin,
Just for your interest, I have been giving you information from an accurate private resource, not one publically available. So that is what I found---
There are no births registered in Vic for John MCMAHON and Mary DELANEY in that time-frame .
Sue
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OK ;D
So was the sister Mary Ann born round 1850?
Is this her death?
MCMAHON Mary Ann
Father Pat
Mother Anne DELANY
Age38
Death Place NORTH CARLTON
Year 1888
Reg 811
Sue
ADDING
Maybe she was memorialised at Bendigo Cemetery.
McMAHON, MARY ANNE
Date of Burial: 21/01/1888
Section: MON G4
Grave Number: 9410
ADDING FURTHER
Here is the mother with her daughter at Bendigo
McMAHON, ANN
Date of Burial 19/02/1885
Section MON G4
Grave Number 9410
Sue
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I see Alice ROBERTS, the adopted sister you mention, is also interred with Ann McMAHON and Mary Ann McMAHON in Bendigo
ROBERTS, ALICE
Date of Burial: 30/06/1888
Section: MON G4
Grave Number: 9410
There is information in the papers about her death if you need it linked as well as her death registration.
Sue
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This obit to Joseph in NZ papers, Free Lance Nov 28 1918 says it includes a photo of brothers Charlie and Joe in this issue.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ysy/
Just trying to find it ...
cheers,
Ros
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At last - found it :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yt0/
cheers,
Ros
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Well Ros, ;D
That should certainly make Martin happy! Good searching ;D
Sue
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National
Archives Library of Australia has a collection of programs and memorabilia for the Macmahon brothers
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/4600772
regards,
Ros
edited to fix my mistake
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And here I was thinking that the NZ National Archives would have them down. DOH :-[
Well done Ros ;D ;D
How bout this, I have seen both. ;D "Charles MacMahon also directed two early and successful feature films - Robbery Under Arms in 1907 and For the Term of His Natural Life in 1908".
Neil
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His name was definitely Joseph Francis MacMahon as I have the original certified copy copy of his daughters birth and he is shown as 53 years old at this time 21/7/1921 so he must have been born in 1864 Also he is showing as been 21 at the time of his mothers death in 1885 so both confirm he was born in 1884 . A lot of conflicting information is showing in newspapers. One even saying that he was 57 when he died. I can not get any birth information from BDM Victoria so he may not have been registered
Details of a parent on their child's birth certificate does not validate either the name of the parent or their date or place of birth.
I cannot find a Mary McMAHON nee DELANEY death in 1885 in Victoria. Can you please type up ALL the details from her certificate.
There is no marriage for a John McMAHON and Mary DELANEY [including spelling variations] on my Victorian resource. And as Sue has already mentioned, there are no births to this couple in Victoria.
It is not unusual for a person to state they were born at a certain place when in fact it was the place where they were raised.
Cando
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Here it says father was Patrick and mother Mary
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/macmahon-charles-7773
There are some possible births to a Patrick and Mary on NSW BDM
regards,
Ros
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I should have put this death in the post (Relpy#29) when I listed the burial at Bendigo.
She perhaps used the forename ANN instead of Mary.
MACMAHON Ann
Father Delaney Thos
Mother
Age: 55
Death Place ST KILDA
Year 1885
Reg 3596
The name of her husband as PMed to me was Patrick MACMAHON..
Sue
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There is no marriage for a John McMAHON and Mary DELANEY [including spelling variations] on my Victorian resource. And as Sue has already mentioned, there are no births to this couple in Victoria. Cando
This information was Pmed to me early inthe search from Martin. I'm sure he will not mind my sharing it ;D
Hi
Parents were Patrick and Mary Ann MacMahon who arrived Melbourne 1853 from County Claire Ireland
Martin
It means of course, that some children of the couple must have accompanied them on arrival as the daughter Mary Anne was born in 1850 if her age at death is correct on the death registration. And if there was an eldest brother named John.
Sue
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Regarding the death of the adopted child, Alice ROBERTS, neither this death notice-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ytd/
Nor this obituary-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yte/
makes any actual direct reference to the MACMAHON parents which is frustrating ::).
Sue
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This Patrick was born Co Clare.
Bendigo Advertiser 24 Jan 1914
OBITUARY.
Last Thursday morning an old pioneer Mr. Patrick McMahon, of Harkness-street, Quarry Hill, passed away at the advanced age of 82 years. Mr. McMahon, who was a native of Ennis, Ireland, arrived in Victoria in 1857 in the sailing ship Elizabeth, and came straight to the Bendigo goldfield, where he worked with varying success for nine years. Upon the discovery of gold on the west coast of New Zealand, he proceeded there, and worked at a rush for some years. He then entered into business on the field, his next neighbor being the late Mr. Richard Seddon, who was then a small storekeeper, and afterwards became Prime Minister of New Zealand. When Mr. Seddon decided to enter public life as representative for his district, Mr. McMahon helped him greatly in his preliminary canvass. For this the hon. gentleman was ever afterwards grateful and when, as Premier of New Zealand, and within a fortnight of his own death,he visited Bendigo, and met Mr. McMahon on the railway platform, he caught him in his arms and hoisted him on his shoulders. Then, when Mr. McMahon ventured to address him as the "Hon. Mr. Seddon," Mr. Seddon stopped him, saying "Call me Dick, Pat, call me Dick." Mr. McMahon returned to Bendigo in 1881, and was employed by the Victorian Railway department till his final retirement, when, for a period of 12 months, he went on a prospecting tour to Bulong, W.A. Mr. McMahon was generally loved by all who knew him for his genial and generous disposition, and had lived in retirement since his wife's decease seven years ago. He left a grownup family of three sons and three daughters. The funeral took place yesterday to the Bendigo Cemetery, and was attended by a very large number of sympathising friends. The coffin, which was of polished English oak, was borne to the grave by Messrs. D. R.White, W. Ryan, J. Hutchinson, and J.Lowery. A choice lot of floral tributes was placed on the coffin, including a handsome wreath and dome from the local employees one from the Electric Supply Co., and another from the rolling stock branch of the Railway department. the Rev. Father Cremin read the burial service. Messrs. Fizelle and Mulqueen were the undertakers.
Buried at Bendigo Cemetery 23 Jan 1914 MON Grave# 19008 with a Mary Ann McMAHON who was buried on 11 Sep 1906 however her maiden name was not DELANEY/DELANY. Did Patrick marry after the death of his first wife Mary Ann DELANEY/DELANY?
Cando
Incorrect Patrick.
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If this is the correct death for the woman buried with this Patrick, I think the couple had been having children in the district before the death of Anne MacMAHON listed with maiden name DELANEY in 1885.
MCMAHON Mary
Father Geoghegan Michl
Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
Age 65
Death Place Bgo
Year 1906
Reg. 8007
Sue
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There is this death of a Patrick MACMAHON on 25 July 1882 reported in Bendigo Advertiser http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article88630025
DEATH.
On the 25th instant, after a long and painful illness, Mr Patrick MacMahon, aged 65 years. R.I.P.
Is this a possibility?
cheers,
Ros
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There is this death of a Patrick MACMAHON on 25 July 1882 reported in Bendigo Advertiser http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article88630025
DEATH.
On the 25th instant, after a long and painful illness, Mr Patrick MacMahon, aged 65 years. R.I.P.
Is this a possibility?
cheers,
Ros
Could be, though he is not buried with Mary Anne (Delaney).
The cemetery deceased location search does not allow search by location, so to find others in the grave with the two women - mother and daughter- is a bit tricky.
I am wondering whether Martin (OP) could tell us the source of the information about the arrival in Aust of the couple in 1853.
Sue
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Death
McMAHON Patrick
Father John Mother Mary GARDENER
At Sandhurst 1882 66 years Reg#9983
Burial
http://www.bencemtrust.com.au/search.asp?id=89615
Too many McMAHONS ::)
So we are clear...and I'm not confusing myself :-[ :P
Buried at Bendigo MON G4 Grave#9410
McMAHON Ann Buried 19 Feb 1885 55 years died at St Kilda dau of Thomas DELANY
McMAHON Mary Ann Buried 22 Jan 1888 38 years died at Carlton dau of Patrick and Ann DELANY.
ROBERTS Alice Buried 30 Jun 1888 17 years died at Sandhurst dau of Richard ROBERTS and Polly LEAKE
If only the database gave all the burials at each location.
Cando :)
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The adopted child was born about 1871 and was the child of a couple named Richard R. ROBERTS and his wife whose stage name was Miss Polly LEAKE. There are numerous articles about her from as early as the early 1860's.
She was in the Bendigo area doing "shows" with Richard in 1863. She seems to have visited Bendigo again and made a Farewell appearance there in 1873 when she departed and perhaps left little Alice behind with the McMAHONs who (I’m only guessing!) may have been staging and supporting the performances,. This couple had at least two other children whose names were Harry R. and Laura ROBERTS both of whom had stage careers.
I do not see much of Polly after 1914.
Richard is spoken of in the past tense in an article in 1904, so was perhaps deceased by then.
Sue
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Polly died in Auckland in 1881 in distressing circumstances http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article88619879 and was a widow of the late Richard Roberts.
Must see what I can find in NZ papers.
Harry Roberts their son was quite an international star http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article133964147 (photo included)
Laura Roberts was a local star http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59361617
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Some obits to Polly Leake in 1881 in NZ papers (she died as Mrs Madden), aged 40
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ytg/
A less favourable one http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yth/
She had several small children (2 marriages)
regards,
Ros
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That was a good find Ros ;D I was searching way too late and in all the wrong places. :-[
Sue
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Such a difference Sue in the way she was remembered :o
The second obit is really catty ::)
"one of the lesser lingering stars of the stock company which have passed almost into forgetfulness"
"a very good exponent of the lighter drama in second class characters"
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Is this Patrick and Ann and possibly other extended family, arriving in 1853?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yti/
Perhaps a search of parish records at Bendigo may find baptisms for the sons.
Cando
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Looks like a good match considering this death:
MCMAHON Thomas (b. IRELAND) d. age 1 1854 #94
Father: Patrick
Mother: Ann DELANEY
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Great searching all
Yes Ann (Mother and daughter and adopted daughter Alice Roberts are indeed buried together in Bendigo)
Just for all info
Polly Leake (Alices mother) died when Alice was 10 so must have been adopted after this time Alice died when she was 17. (Grave stone shows 3 people with same surname of McMahon)
Harry Roberts married the divorced wife of JC Williamson and Harry passed away before she did (That is if the internet is correct)
Of all the children of Patrick and Mary Ann (Ann) it looks like all except Joseph married and had a child (Mary Josephine) wife's mother
He married Isabel Lodder who was one of 8 children of A.R.V. Lodder of Wellington
I will put another topic on about the family of Violet soon and see if you great bunch of researchers can find something
Exhausting this researching but I now have a copy of two photos of Joseph at 26 from the Queensland Punch and another group photo from Janette when he passed away at 55 with details of his grave site so I will give if a rest for the MacMahon side of the family
Once again thanks for all your research
Martin
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Hi Martin,
In my opinion you have many unanswered questions regarding the McMahon family. One should be cautious about basing a family history on unsubstantiated information, of which you seem to have a good measure.
Unless of course, you have details which you have not disclosed to the team here!
For instance, where is the father/husband PATRICK?
When did the family arrive in Australia?
When/where was Joseph Francis born?
Who looked after Alice from the age of 14 when both her mother and adopted mother had died?
There are other unresolved matters in the thread and while no-one would dispute your choice to finish up on the thread, we should mention that if you elect to place another thread on the board, it will be best to offer as much information as possible so the results are more meaningful and hopefully, accurate ;D
Hoping you take this note in the good spirit it is intended ;D
Sue
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Hi Sue
Patrick is in an unmarked grave not far from Ann, Mary Ann and Alice
Patrick and Ann arrived in Melbourne aboard the "Albinus" Ex Liverpool on the 4th August 1853 with John born 1848 died ?, Mary Ann Born 1850 died 21/1/1888 and Thomas born 1852 died 1854
The other 4 boys were were born in Australia, Assume Bendigo,
In Alice's obit it is mentioned in the Bendigo Advertiser 30th June 1888
Obituary.-—The death of Miss Alice Roberts, adopted sister of Messrs. MacMahon Bros., the well-known theatrical agents, will be learned with regret. The deceased young lady, who had.only been ailing for six days, succumbed to gastritis, notwithstanding the most, unremitting attention on the part of Dr. Penfold. Miss .Roberts, who was a very amiable and talented young lady, seventeen years of age, was the daughter of Mrs. Roberts, better known by her stage name of Miss Polly Leake. She had been brought up from child hood in the MacMahan family, to whom she was greatlv endeared, and much sympathy will be felt for them in the sad loss they have sustained bv her death. The Columbia Skating Rink in view street was closed yesterday in consequence of the sad event.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88550990?searchTerm=%28MacMahon%29&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||fromyyyy|||anyWords=MacMahon|||tomm|||fromdd|||l-textSearchScope=*ignore*|*ignore*|||l-title=346|||l-word=*ignore*|*ignore*|||notWords|||toyyyy|||todd|||frommm|||sortby=dateDesc#pstart9070396
Regards
Martin
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Hi Sue
Patrick is in an unmarked grave not far from Ann, Mary Ann and Alice
Patrick and Ann arrived in Melbourne aboard the "Albinus" Ex Liverpool on the 4th August 1853 with John born 1848 died ?, Mary Ann Born 1850 died 21/1/1888 and Thomas born 1852 died 1854
The other 4 boys were were born in Australia, Assume Bendigo,
In Alice's obit it is mentioned in the Bendigo Advertiser 30th June 1888
Obituary.-—The death of Miss Alice Roberts, adopted sister of Messrs. MacMahon Bros., the well-known theatrical agents, will be learned with regret. The deceased young lady, who had.only been ailing for six days, succumbed to gastritis, notwithstanding the most, unremitting attention on the part of Dr. Penfold. Miss .Roberts, who was a very amiable and talented young lady, seventeen years of age, was the daughter of Mrs. Roberts, better known by her stage name of Miss Polly Leake. She had been brought up from child hood in the MacMahan family, to whom she was greatlv endeared, and much sympathy will be felt for them in the sad loss they have sustained bv her death. The Columbia Skating Rink in view street was closed yesterday in consequence of the sad event.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88550990?searchTerm=%28MacMahon%29&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||fromyyyy|||anyWords=MacMahon|||tomm|||fromdd|||l-textSearchScope=*ignore*|*ignore*|||l-title=346|||l-word=*ignore*|*ignore*|||notWords|||toyyyy|||todd|||frommm|||sortby=dateDesc#pstart9070396
Regards
Martin
Thanks for letting us know about Patrick. There was great deal of discussion and effort put into trying to locate him in this conversation. We may have been helped by your information in advance. When did he die?
We were aware of the obituary to Alice ROBERTS as I had linked it for a all to read in my reply #35
In relpies#46 from Cando and #47 from Merlin comment was made about the arrival in 1953 of a family McMAHON, but there was no confirmation from you on the finding, hence it seemed to me, left open.
As to the births of the sons, still open to searching I would say.
Sue
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Patrick died 25/7/1882 aged 66
I had help from the Bendigo Library in searching but they came back with a two year error on the boys birth
Looks like they should be
John age 36 on Ann's death register in St Kilda died 17/2/1885
Mary age 32 on Ann's death register
William 19/8/1857 age 29 on Ann's death register
James 1/11/1859 age 26 on Ann's death register
Charles 7/12/1862 age 23 on Ann's death register
Joseph 21/10/1864 age 21 on Ann's death register (Sent a request for Joseph's birth certificate)
Sorry for not responding to Merlin Must have missed it. According to Bendigo there were a few McMahons on the ship but it was not known if they were related
On James obit it showed that James was remembered by cousins in Port Fairy and Warnabool so the other McMahons may have been Patricks siblings
Regards
Martin
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Patrick and Ann arrived in Melbourne aboard the "Albinus" Ex Liverpool on the 4th August 1853 with John born 1848 died ?, Mary Ann Born 1850 died 21/1/1888 and Thomas born 1852 died 1854
Have you considered that John was not Patrick and Ann's child. There were other McMAHON's on the ALBINUS and John was the same age as Thomas on the passenger list at PROV.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yuk/
Of course you have the advantage of having death certificates which list the names of their children both living and deceased.
Is this Patrick's burial - according to the death index 66 years in 1882.
http://www.bencemtrust.com.au/search.asp?id=89615
MCMAHON, Patrick Buried 26 Jul 1882 at Bendigo Cemetery MON G5 8458
Bendigo Advertiser 27 Jul 1882
DEATH.
On the 25th instant, after a long and painful illness, Mr Patrick MacMahon, aged 66 years. RIP
I did make the suggestion for a search of parish records at Bendigo MAY find the sons' baptisms ie if they were born at Bendigo and not just raised there.
Perhaps this link will be helpful for future requests. :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368728.msg2622367#msg2622367
Cando
Red warning but will leave the above and add...
I actually found the immigration record on PROV....it is important to read the links to further information.
I did trace the 'cousins DOHERTY and HOUS* at Warrnambool but can't locate my notes. If I recall Ellen McMAHON married a DOHERTY.
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Joseph 21/10/1864 age 21 on Ann's death register (Sent a request for Joseph's birth certificate)
Are you aware that in NSW transcriptions of certificates are available about half the cost of a certified certificate. Information is the same and quite suitable for family history purposes.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
Transcript is emailed.
Cando :)
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I had help from the Bendigo Library in searching but they came back with a two year error on the boys birth
I would never assume that information on a death certificate is correct ie if you are basing their years of birth on Ann's death certificate.
Where did the Bendigo Library source their information on the boys' births?
Cando
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Joseph 21/10/1864 age 21 on Ann's death register (Sent a request for Joseph's birth certificate)
MARTIN
To whom have you sent a request?
We have not been able to locate the registration of this birth with our resources. Perhaps there is somewhere we have not looked :D
ADDING
In Reply #38 Ros put up the death notice of a Patrick McMAHON in 1882 (as has Cando). there was no comment so it was left unconfirmed until now.
Sue
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Thanks Cando
Patrick is shown in Bendigo registers as buried in grave 8458 (Confirmed at the expo last month)
Bendigo library also advised me
Baptismal records at St Kilians Catholic Church Bendigo show the following
Born 19th August 1854 William Henry McMahon bapt 8Ocober 1854
Born 1 Nov 1857 James McMahon
Born 7 Dec 1860 Charles McMahon... James and Charles Bapt 17 May 1861
Born 21 Oct 1862 Francis Joseph McMahon bapt 1863
Now you can see that there is some confusion regarding the birth dates for the boys Are the birth dates as shown in the baptism records correct or is the age of the children correct on Ann's death register. Only a copy of the actual birth certificate can tell That is why I have requested a copy of Joseph's certificate
I also have the death record of Thomas son of Patrick and Ann McMahon (formaly Delaney) Shown as born Ireland, 4 months in Victoria died Melbourne.
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Patrick is shown in Bendigo registers as buried in grave 8458 (Confirmed at the expo last month)
And by the burial record linked in my post.
There was a tendency for certain sections of the community not to register their children's births and if the births were not registered in the stipulated period there may have been fines however you have their baptism records so fail to understand why you didn't list all this information in your intial request.
Perhaps you missed my comment on a previous post....
I would never assume that information on a death certificate is correct ie if you are basing their years of birth on Ann's death certificate.
Your information and source should be the parish records as the children's births were not registered. The information on the death certificate is incorrect. Who was the informant on the death certificate?
Cando
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I also have the death record of Thomas son of Patrick and Ann McMahon (formaly Delaney) Shown as born Ireland, 4 months in Victoria died Melbourne.
And posted by Merlin however Thomas age was 1 year on the shipping record in 1853 and one year on Merlin's and my resource. You have omitted that from your information.
Looks like a good match considering this death:
MCMAHON Thomas (b. IRELAND) d. age 1 1854 #94
Father: Patrick
Mother: Ann DELANEY
Cando
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Informant of Ann was William MacMahon Son Sandhurst
Sorry I did not include all known info (first post) I will definitely show what I do know in future questions
At the time of the first post I was after a photo of Joseph and this was supplied in by Janette and a link to a queensland site by someone else (Not sure who it was but they will know)
The other information was also welcome but as I was sent so much information I attempted to answer each post
I think I have enough information about the MacMahon side at this time so when I get all known information about his wife Violet Lodder before I post next week (I will just show what I know and I will leave it to all for their input)
Many thanks again to all for their help and it was a great learning curve in how to pose questions
Best regards
Martin
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m
Thanks Cando
Patrick is shown in Bendigo registers as buried in grave 8458 (Confirmed at the expo last month)
Bendigo library also advised me
Baptismal records at St Kilians Catholic Church Bendigo show the following
....Born 21 Oct 1862 Francis Joseph McMahon bapt 1863
Now you can see that there is some confusion regarding the birth dates for the boys Are the birth dates as shown in the baptism records correct or is the age of the children correct on Ann's death register. Only a copy of the actual birth certificate can tell That is why I have requested a copy of Joseph's certificate
May I butt in please and gently mention from Family History 101 No one is ever born AFTER they are baptised... Therefore if you have a Parish record for 1863 you cannot have them being born in 1864 or even the day after the baptism ....
Cheers JM
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Informant of Ann was William MacMahon Son Sandhurst
Thank you. Wm's info was not accurate.
Link to your thread on NZ board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683106.0
A little more to add to your growing collection of newspaper items.
The Colonist 5 Dec 1899
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yun/
Miss Violet Lodder danced a Highland fling very nicely and had to repeat it.
Dominion 24 Aug 1912
The wedding takes place at Auckland today of Miss Violet Lodder, daughter of the late Mr A V Lodder of Wellington, who is marrying Mr Joseph McMahon, Proprietor of the Queen’s Theatre, Auckland, and brother of Mr Charles McMahon of Wellington and Mr James McMahon of Sydney, all well known in the theatrical world
Observer 31 Aug 1912
Joe McMahon has gone and got married and this is one of the bouquets, or handfuls of rice or old silk slippers or anything that spells luck. The charming young lady who is now Mrs Joe was Miss Violet Lodder, a name not so well known in Auckland as in Wellington, for the late Mr Lodder, father of Mrs MacMahon, kept the City Buffet Hotel for so many years that most men in the windy city have at some time sampled his brew. The name is also well known in connection with the Belle Vue Gardens and its hotel – a spot of sylvan beauty just outside Wellington, winded-swept Wellingtonians go for a little calmness and perfume of flowers on Sundays. Miss Violet Lodder, before the marriage to the picture emperor, assist the firm in conducting a pass office. Congratulations!
The Bendigo Advertiser 7 Sep 1912
At Auckland on 24th August Mr, Joseph MacMahon, the well-known theatrical agent (now proprietor of the Queen's Theatre, Auckland), was married to Miss Violet Lodder of Wellington.
Cando
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Yes I know JM but that was what was given to me Very confusing if you take research by other people as "gospel" without digging up documents. I think I have just about exhaustive my research of the MacMahons for this time and will now concentrate on the Lodders
Will upload next week.
What was supplied was two photo's. The final resting place of Joseph and photos of his grave at Waikaraka Cemetery As well as a great deal of information and help with this site
Good night
Martin
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Very confusing if you take research by other people as "gospel" without digging up documents
Why is it confusing?
You have information from Parish Registers and the Victorian BDM indexes both online and on CD's. Isn't this information satisfactory for you?
Patrick and Anne did not register their children's births. As I wrote previously, some sections of the community considered baptisms sufficient with bothering with the civil registrations and there were often fines for late registrations. I think you are most fortunate to have the parish records. Did you bother to ask for copies of the baptisms in the Parish registers? The parish records should be noted with details as your source for the births of Patrick and Ann's children born at Bendigo. They are primary records and all other references to their ages etc are obviously incorrect.
Bit pointless posting Violet LODDER's information on the Australian Board as she was born in New Zealand.
Mistranscribed surname ::) Goodness me Joseph was born 1862 :o
Birth
1891/14212
LOADER Violet Isabella
Father Arthur Robert Ven Mother Mary Jane
Not one of the 20 or so online trees shows Violet LODDER as one of the number of children born to Arthur and his wife Mary Jane HALCROW. Arthur [the publican] died in 1911.
Perhaps continue your search for the LODDER information in New Zealand. If you don't have a subscription to Ancestry then enquire at your local library as many libraries subscribe to the website.
Good luck :).
Cando
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Yes I know JM but that was what was given to me Very confusing if you take research by other people as "gospel" without digging up documents. I think I have just about exhaustive my research of the MacMahons for this time ....
Errrr ummmmm excuse me please but I do not take other people's research as gospel... I was trying to gently indicate to you that it is simply impossible for a baptism to occur BEFORE the infant has been born ..... As others asked may I also ask : What documents do you actually hold apart from the death cert ...
Family History 101
a d.c. that has family history info is only as reliable as the informant's own knowledge. In Australia there has not been any government official employed as a Death cert inspector re the ' quality / validity of the family history details' .
Cheers JM