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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: mark1717 on Friday 04 April 14 19:44 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm new to all this and i have been trying to find out about my family, so far i have found 7 of my 8 great grandparents birth certificates online with the freebmd site, but i am stuck on the last one. Her name is Chiesa which i have been told is of Italian descent i have found her marriage certificate to my great grandfather(Joseph Routledge married in 1928 Cumberland) but i cannot find her birth certificate, does this mean she was not born in the UK? I know her family came from Italy but i am unsure if she was born there as she has a very uncommon Italian name, on the marriage certificate it is Jennie.
Can anyone give me an idea on how i could find it?
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Hi welcome to Rootschat
What was her father's name and occupation? Have you tried looking for the family in the 1911 or 1901 census as that will tell you where she was born. I'm afraid that we cant give details of the 1911 on here because of copyright.
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Sadly i do not know, i have no idea what her father's name was or occupation, i have been told he was from Italy and could not speak English very well i'm quite sure he was born and raised in Italy and i think he moved to England, i have checked the 1911 census but can not find a record of a Jennie Chiesa i could of the man she married but sadly not her, i am not 100% that she was born in the UK.
Thanks for your speedy reply.
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You may have to buy the marriage certificate to find out her father's details. You can get this from The General Register Office http://www.gro.gov.uk/ for £9.25 using the details you found. ie
Marriages Jun 1928
CHIESA Jennie
ROUTLEDGE Joseph W
Cockermouth 10b 1264
I can't see her on the 1911 or 1901, so perhaps she was born in Italy.
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ok thanks :). Will this Document say what part of Italy they are from how will i find her mothers details as well?
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Unfortunately it probably won't. All it will tell you is where she was living at the time of her marriage and who her father was and his occupation. It may also tell you if he was alive in 1928.
When did she die? Modern death certificates also have the date and place of birth on them, but I'm not sure when this started.
Added: I knew it would be somewhere on Rootschat ;D " Entries on death certificates after 1st April 1969 will also show the place and date of birth of the deceased. "
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=477949.0
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Name:
Jennie Routledge
Birth Date: May 1906
Date of Registration:Feb 1985
Age at Death:78
Registration district: Cockermouth
Volume:1
Page: 493
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Good find Glenclare
I cant see her on Freebmd for 1906, so it does look as if she was born abroad. Given that she died in 1985, her death certificate should tell you where she was born, providing the person who registered it knew.
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FamilySearch.org has records from Italy. Do you know where in the country the family came from?
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list?page=1&countryId=1927178
Nanny Jan
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I think that might be the problem at the moment, NJ. Looking on Ancestry it does seem quite a common name and a lot emigrated to the USA.
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There are a few with the surname on Ancestry from Argentina.Could the Ralph Chiesa be a possible brother?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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An internet search revealed that the Italian version of Jennifer/Jennie is Ginevra. Maybe she was baptised with that name or similar, and anglicised it to Jennie when she came to England.
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In the Cumberland area there are other Chiesa's - for example Mary b. 1911 in Carlisle may be the same as Mary m. 1936 in Cockermouth district, and the Aleesandro d. 55 in 1937 in Cockermouth could be the father of both Mary and your Jennie (and some other kids).
If you look at the 1911 census ( http://www.1911census.co.uk ) with the surname "CHEESOR" I think there is a possible family in Carlisle - free index info shows a Alexander and Julia with kids Robert, Jennie, and Ralph.
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If you look at the 1911 census ( http://www.1911census.co.uk ) with the surname "CHEESOR" I think there is a possible family in Carlisle - free index info shows a Alexander and Julia with kids Robert, Jennie, and Ralph.
Certainly looks like them and confirms our suspicions. ;)
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Possibly 3 more siblings
Births Dec 1911
Chiesa Mary Salotti Carlisle 10b 1011
Births Sep 1913
CHIESA Joseph Salotti Whitehaven 10b 1338
Births Dec 1914
CHIESA Norah Salotti Whitehaven 10b 1281
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This looks like the youngest child, Ralph's death
Ralph Chiesa
Birth Date: 21 Mar 1910
Date of Registration: Jun 1972
Age 62
Whitehaven Cumberland
Volume: 1a Page: 396
In which case, this is his birth:
Raffa?ilo Chiesa
Jan-Feb-Mar 1910
Carlisle Cumberland
Volume: 10b Page: 570
That certificate would give you his mother's maiden name.
Added: Just seen your post Jan - so mother's maiden name was Salotti. ;)
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I don't have a subscription to scotlandspeople, so can't see the details, but a free search shows a Robert Chiesa birth registered in 1906, and an Alessandro Chiesa marriage the same year. Which would tally with 1911 info. However there is no sign of a Julia Salotti, although this may be because her name has not been transcribed as such.
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Julia Salotti is down as Guilia Salotti , married on 16 Aug 1906 at 90 1/2 Great Hamilton St Glasgow by Declaration in presence of Guiseppe de Prata Restaurant Keeper , and Silvin ? Bertilini Sculptor
Alessandro Chiesa aged 25 Restaurant Keeper, bachelor , father Guiseppe Chiesa deceased Farmer mother Maria, maiden name Marcucci
Guilia Salotti aged 22 spinster, father Raffaello Salotti, Telegraph Clerk , mother Caterina, maiden name Garnucci
address of bride and groom at time of marriage 76 Gallowgate Glasgow
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So at some point they must have returned to Italy where Jennie was born in 1908, and then come back to the UK and settled in Cumbria before the birth of Ralph in 1910. It is unfortunate as she seems to be the only child born there, the rest were born in either Scotland or Cumbria.
At least you now have names of her parents and grandparents.
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Robert Antonio Guido Chiesa born 29 Dec 1906 6 20am 32 Well St Glasgow mother Guilia Chiesa maiden name Salotti father Alessandro Chiesa Restaurant Keeper
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This looks like the youngest child, Ralph's death
Ralph Chiesa
Birth Date: 21 Mar 1910
Date of Registration: Jun 1972
Age 62
Whitehaven Cumberland
Volume: 1a Page: 396
In which case, this is his birth:
Raffa?ilo Chiesa
Jan-Feb-Mar 1910
Carlisle Cumberland
Volume: 10b Page: 570
That certificate would give you his mother's maiden name.
Added: Just seen your post Jan - so mother's maiden name was Salotti.
It looks like Norah Chiesa born in the Whitehaven District of Cumberland in 1914 was their youngest child.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Aleesandro d. 55 in 1937 in Cockermouth could be the father of both Mary and your Jennie
As Jorose found, Aleesandro Chiesa died Mar Q 1937 Cockermouth 10b 861.
This could be a remarriage for his widow Julia.
Marriage Dec Q 1943 Cockermouth 10b 1145
Julia Chiesa & Giovanni Solari
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Death Dec Q 1962 Cockermouth 1a 76
Guilia Solari age 78
I cannot see a death for a Julia/Guilia Chiesa, so I think the above is her.
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Thanks to everyone here, sorry I've been away from the computer and only just seen these messages and again thank you to everyone who has helped, I'm going to read through all these messages and check the links but i wanted to say a big thanks first. :)
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Haven't helped with this thread but just to say well done to everyone but also to say to Mark how everyone on RC appreciates thanks where it's due so your latest post will be very much welcomed!
Josey
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I've read through all the posts and have to say excellent work because i was stumped, this has helped tremendously, so is it safe to assume that my great nan was born in Italy? and could anyone give me tips on how to find out what part of Italy they came from or will this be difficult to find out.
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If you post here , there may be someone who would know re Italian records,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=135.0 Europe forum
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Thanks for the link :)
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According to everything we have found, it all points to her being born in Italy. It may be difficult to find where they actually came from as their POB in Italy on the 1911 is just given as unknown. The only thing I can think of is to get her death certificate and see if that gives an actual place of birth. However, as I said in a previous post, it depends whether the person who registered the death knew that, if not it may just say Italy. Or, as she had obviously been in Cumbria since a baby, they may have assumed she was born there as well.
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Ok thanks groom, i'll have to try the death record but i have a feeling they would have just put Cumbria.
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https://familysearch.org/search
has some Italian records. There's nothing obvious showing up in searches at the moment, but a lot of the records are not yet indexed, and the only way to look at them is page by page. Not much use if you don't know which area you need to look at. However, the records are gradually being indexed, so if you keep going back to look every so often, something may turn up eventually.
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Thanks Galium, I've had a look but sadly could not find anything but i will keep checking.
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Hi
This may be the brother of Julia and may indicate where Jennie was born
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VR8F-LZN
Margp
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That's a brilliant find, Marg. It might be worth adding that to Mark's new thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683069.0
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That's a brilliant find, Marg. It might be worth adding that to Mark's new thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683069.0
Thanks groom, done
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Name:
Jennie Routledge
Birth Date: May 1906
Date of Registration:Feb 1985
Age at Death:78
Registration district: Cockermouth
Volume:1
Page: 493
Hi, I know that this birth year is incorrect on this, but she she may have been born earlier and out of wedlock, has her parents did not marry until Aug 1906, I know that the age at death can be out, but it may be worth checking, it just seems strange that one child would be born in Italy in between 2 other children so young, I know that Robert was born in Dec 1906 so Julia was pregnant at the time of the marriage
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Hi Marg
I don't think the birth date at death is correct as it doesn't fit with the ages of the children we found in 1911.
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Hi Marg
I don't think the birth date at death is correct as it doesn't fit with the ages of the children we found in 1911.
I have amended my post before you posted this
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Unfortunately the fact that whoever registered the death didn't know her correct date of birth makes me think they may not have known where she was born either, so the death certificate may not help. However, unless that combination of names is common in Italy, I think that must be her grandparents you found on FamilySearch.
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Could my great nan be the eldest child?and someone mixed up the dates or maybe they visited their family in Italy and had her there slightly unlikely since they had another young child but possible, it seems this ancestor is trying to be as difficult as possible(compared to my others). I have checked and cannot find a birth certificate for my great nan.
Thanks for the extra info MargP.
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Could my great nan be the eldest child?and someone mixed up the dates or maybe they visited their family in Italy and had her there slightly unlikely since they had another young child but possible, it seems this ancestor is trying to be as difficult as possible(compared to my others). I have checked and cannot find a birth certificate for my great nan.
No, Robert is the eldest, see Jan57's post re his birth, so Jennie cant have been born in 1906.
Robert Antonio Guido Chiesa born 29 Dec 1906 6 20am 32 Well St Glasgow mother Guilia Chiesa maiden name Salotti father Alessandro Chiesa Restaurant Keeper
Perhaps they just went back to Italy from Scotland after his birth and Jennie was born there. Then they decided to return to England and settled in Cumbria before the birth of Ralph in 1910. I think the only place you will find her birth or baptism is in Italy. Marg seems to have found where they came from, so hopefully someone with knowledge of Italian records might be able to help.
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Could my great nan be the eldest child?and someone mixed up the dates or maybe they visited their family in Italy and had her there slightly unlikely since they had another young child but possible, it seems this ancestor is trying to be as difficult as possible(compared to my others). I have checked and cannot find a birth certificate for my great nan.
No, Robert is the eldest, see Jan57's post re his birth, so Jennie cant have been born in 1906.
Robert Antonio Guido Chiesa born 29 Dec 1906 6 20am 32 Well St Glasgow mother Guilia Chiesa maiden name Salotti father Alessandro Chiesa Restaurant Keeper
Perhaps they just went back to Italy from Scotland after his birth and Jennie was born there. Then they decided to return to England and settled in Cumbria before the birth of Ralph in 1910. I think the only place you will find her birth or baptism is in Italy. Marg seems to have found where they came from, so hopefully someone with knowledge of Italian records might be able to help.
Yes, I realized my mistake and amended the name to Robert, its hard going with the two topics, or just another OAP moment, I wonder how old Jennie was on the marriage record
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Hi there, don't know if you are still looking but I know exactly where your great nan, Jennie was born.
I can send you a birth document. Please get back to me
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Hi Robert1544,
It would be nice if you could post transcribed details for others possibly researching the same family too which may even encourage them to join RC & engage with others on the thread.
Annie
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HI Mark
if you still looking for the Great Nan's birth record I can help you with precise details. If you already have this, then thats fine
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HI Mark
if you still looking for the Great Nan's birth record I can help you with precise details. If you already have this, then thats fine
Hi, i would be interested, if possible could you please post the details on this thread.
Thanks :)