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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: DitzKnitz on Tuesday 05 June 12 02:33 BST (UK)
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Is it possible to find out if there is a George McPherson on there? He was born between 1840-42 and is listed under the Tingwall Parish. He signed up in 1861 and then traveled to York Factory in 1862, I believe.
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Welcome to rootschat! I imagine I did scan the whole entry...but whether or not it is here, well, it was a few years ago and I didn't always mark things all that well...I'll have a look when I have time to see if it is labelled...
Lauraine there is something on HERD, David J. http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/biographical/h/herd_david-j.pdf
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Thank you for the 'Welcome'. I thought that I would share this here, as well. I sent a copy of this to the HBCA and the MHS.
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There seems to be conflicting information, that has been presented as facts, regarding "Samuel Grey" of the Hudson's Bay Company, on various reports and HBC related websites. I believe that this is because a father and son have been confused. I began looking into his file because my Gr-Gr-GGrandfather was "George McPherson". It has been said that George married Samuel's daughter, which IS true, depending on which Samuel you are talking about. This would make Samuel Grey Sr (born ca1813) my Gr-Gr-Gr-Gr-Grandfather and Sam Grey Jr (born ca1843) an Uncle. I am a student at Lakehead University and am currently taking a third-year history course called "The North American Fur Trade". I decided to revisit the 'Samuel Greys' with the information I have learned so far. This is what I found . . .
Michael Payne's article "Fort Churchill, 1821-1900: An Outpost Community in the Fur Trade", he states:
"Indeed Samuel Grey Senior was listed by the mid 1880s as "native" despite the fact that he was actually from Tingwall in the Shetland Islands."
According to "York Factory Medical Journals 1846-1849" as transcribed by Colin Briggs & Elizabeth Briggs for the Hudson's Bay Company Archives:
Page 59 (May 9th, 1847):
"Samuel Grey (AEt 4)
While his mother was leading him by the hand he slipped & fell when his his (sic) left arm sustained the shock: such is the statement rendered. Complains of pain near the elbow joint: on diligent examination no lesion discoverable; order a discutient liniment: Spirit of wine & vinegar."
Page 61 (May 19, 1847):
"Samuel Grey Senr (labourer)
eight days ago had his leg bruised by a sledge passing over it. front of the tibia towards the lower third discoloured & puffy: fluctuation evident-: on being pierced by the lancet a considerable quantity of grumous blood flowed out. A pledget of lint soaked in a discutient liniment applied with a roller: by which treatment he was much relieved."
Page 141 (Feb 11, 1848):
"Samuel Gray's Child (AEt 5mths)"
Last reference to the Samuel Grey family is page 225 on July 29, 1849.
According to 1851 Scotland Census*:
Samuel Grey/Gray Sr. was born c1813 in England and is now living in Tingwall, Scotland.
His wife is Mary Grey/Gray and she was born c1823 at Hudson's Bay.
His son is Samuel Grey/Gray Jr and he was born c1834 at Hudson's Bay.
His daughter is Mary Grey/Gray and she was born c1848 at Hudson's Bay.**
This census would support my belief that the father and son are being confused with one another. I will also assume that the mother, Mary, was a Native woman. This would also mean that George McPherson married the daughter, Mary/Marie Grey, who was actually Samuel Grey's (ca1843) sister, and not his daughter. This error may have caused considerable confusion to researchers in the past.
According to the 1881 Canada Census***, there clearly shows two different Samuel Greys, a Sr and a Jr. Sr is listed as being born in Yarmouth, England, while Jr was born in Keewatin.
According to the Hudson's Bay Archives Biographical Sheet, "Grey, Samuel (ca1837-1922)(fl.1851-1884); AM/Feb.1999"****:
"Signed five-year contract at Lerwick as a labourer"
This biographical sheet seems to have merged the two Samuel Grey's into one. According to the medical records, Samuel Jr would likely be only approximately 8 years old when the contract was signed at Lerwick. As well, the sheet states that he "Retired on pension" in 1884-85, yet in the notes regarding his death, it says "He was also a pensioner having served a term of forty five years in the Company's employ." This shows a clear discrepancy in the supposed retirement dates.
*Parish: Tingwall, Whiteness and Weisdale; ED: 7; Page: 2; Line: 4; Roll: CSSCT1851_3; Year:1851 (Taken March 30/31st, 1851)
**Considering that the final medical entry while in York Factory was July 29th, 1849, and the March 1851 census date, the Grey family must have moved to Scotland between such dates.
***Year: 1881; Census Place: York Factory, Territories, Northwest Territories; Roll: C_13285; Page: 7; Family No: 28.
****http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/biographical/g/grey_samuel.pdf
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Elizabeth Briggs devotes a great deal of time in HBC research and is very knowledgeable.
We all do make mistakes... having only researched my husband's ancestor I can tell you it is a lot of work searching for all info there may be on one man let alone the multitude she has worked on...Have you discussed this with her? I am sure she'd be more than willing to correct a bio sheet if you indeed can prove your research to disprove theirs... Does it say who compiled his bio sheet...Some of the originals were done many decades ago...
The wife may indeed have aboriginal or metis...The name Mary was used a lot as the country husbands chose the names for their country wives and it was sometimes the name of a sister or mother as it was easier to remember than the actual name of the woman...
BTW anyone can write a book...and even call it "history" with their own "spin" and facts" ...so publications can be a good stepping stone
I also would suggest a visit to the HBC archives to do all local searches for yourself as there may be a lot more entries than those suggested in the bios...
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Yes, I have been to the HBC archives a couple times and looked through the journal posts, but that was a couple years ago. But I never did consider at that time to validate the entries referred to in the sheets. Also, it does not identify who compiled it.
I am stumped on Samuel Grey's (b1818) son-in-law, George McPherson, and his son Roderick (Royrie). I am unable to find ANY info on George, prior to his arrival in YF. So I though I would try scouring the Orkney peripherals and that is when I fiscovered Samuel Grey's 1851 Scottish census record.
Then, George's son Royrie seems to be even more elusive. :(
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I would start a thread asking about George McPherson and his family * you should include and point to this link to your info on his wife Mary Grey's family http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,303444.msg4506241.html#msg4506241 ( ...and continue there as this is a request for lookups which I will do eventually ...you can see how long ago I made this thread... ( I changed offices and still may one day find that disc...but don't have time to look right now)
p.s. have now looked at the bio sheet and yes, it is a mess...Some researchers only read what they want to read and then call themselves historians...they might more correctly be called revisionists of history. There are some terrific people working at the HBC archives, and I am sure someone will be happy to make the changes and hopefully remove references to sources which are incorrect.
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Note the poster has this information, I am just adding images for those interested!
Samuel Grey Sr. doesn't state Yarmouth England on the census... so it is assumed he is N.S. by transcribers ;D The two are clearly marked as Sr. & Jr. though aren't they...Yes they both have daughters Nancy and probably had more duplicates but the birth years should have given it away :D
Was the 1870 available at the archives on these families? I couldn't find them in 1891...
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881CN_19126
It does not help that children sometimes claim to be full cree or aboriginal ancestry ( altho that was likely assumed from their colour)
Was there a son Roderick or was he using a middle name? Did you follow John Robert?
I see that James had a middle name...http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881CN_19125
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e329/e008212302.jpg
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=112793&highlight=4
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=27739
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I am assuming Yarmouth, UK because Samuel Grey (1803/13) lists his birthplace as England in various censuses. As for the 1891 Census, a huge area north of Wpg, primarily involving Natives, is missing. I am assuming they found little need in performing one when treaty paylists were already maintained annually. We have wondered if Rory was originally "John Robert" and then began using 'Roderick'. However, that is a bit of a leap that needs confirmation. Oral family history says that George sent Rory away when he was very young to be educated. At some point, he arrived near Fort Frances, Ontario. Some say that he had a cousin there and/or worked at a farm. When the farm owner died ca. 1903, Rory moved to Couchiching and married the Chief's sister. Further to that, it was said that where he worked near FF was quite isolated and he would become bored during days off and would walk a significant distance to the reserve when he worked for the farmer. I am also told that his mother, Marie/Mary/Maria, pronounced her name like Mariah (Carey).
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Oh and James' middle name is 'Inkster'. I have been able to place a few of George's children after 1901, but John Robert is not one of them.
This research definitely has led me on an intriguing path, this week. I have been trying to solve the George/Rory puzzle for decades, though.
In 1889, a fellow retired HBC Orkneyman, William McLeod, is farming in Portage la Prairie. His wife, Angelique Munroe, died a few years prior. On April 26, 1889 Wm. McLeod killed two of his four children with an axe. He then killed himself by slashing his own throat. So, so tragic and no mention of him in the HBC sheets yet. Isabella died that night, while John survived a couple days. Maggie and Colin were away at school.
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Wonder if this is your man as Rodric Mcferson Algoma Dist. 1901, woodsman...It could be as not far from where his future wife lives... You could see if he can be followed thriough the census. I tthink it says N.D. ( Northern District) http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=29488&highlight=32 The date is close to that of John Robert...wish we had 1891
Herfamily is next to Morriseau who were mistranscribed as Morrison...altho it is clear as day.
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=200160&highlight=24
have you looked at any Anglican Church records...Not sure if any of these Parishes were close to York Factory or not...CHURCHILL, Keewatin Diocese? http://surreylibraries.ca/files/genbook15web.pdf
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A lot of these records, I did not think to look them up until recently. I am now thinking that I will reward mysrlf with a trip to the archives once this course is completed (in a couple weeks). I will have a nice list of microfiches that I will want to explore.
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You'll need to see where those parish records are archived. You may be able to order to view through interlibrary loan or be available at an archive near you (see bottom of page)
http://ao.minisisinc.com/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/ARCH_DESC_FACT/FACTSDESC/REFD%2BF%2B978?SESSIONSEARCH
http://www.anglican.ca/resources/gsarchives/incanada/
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Found the lists for Prince of Wales and he is not on them...You will need a huge amount of time in order to look through ship's lists... I suggest asking Ms. Briggs by email if they have any further information on your men, and if they have suggestions for you prior to your visit...as it is so much work and coming from out of town all preparations prior may help
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Re: George McPherson
1881 Canada Census (George McPherson)
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e329/e008212302.jpg
1901 Canada Census
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/View.jsp?id=112793&highlight=4&desc=1901+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+George+McPherson
1911 Canada Census (Mary McPherson - widow)
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=27739&highlight=4&desc=1911+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Mary+McPherson
1921 Canada Census (James Inkster McPherson)
http://search.ancestry.ca/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=CanCen1921&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsln=mcpherson&msrpn__ftp=york+factory&dbOnly=_F0007989%7c_F0007989_x%2c_F00079D5%7c_F00079D5_x%2c_83004005%7c_83004005_x%2c_83004006%7c_83004006_x%2c_F000798B%7c_F000798B_x%2c_F000798C%7c_F000798C_x%2c_F000798D%7c_F000798D_x&uidh=ex2&pcat=35&fh=0&h=7534484&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
Diocese of Keewatin (parish records)
http://www.dioceseofkeewatin.ca/
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Hello burntwood and welcome to rootschat....Please peruse the site and enjoy...There is a beginners section which is always a great place to start for good advice and tips.
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Hello everyone...
This query is titled: MB. 1862 York Factory HBC passengers so please let us continue only if any ancestors may have on that voyage.
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Lauraine .....here is something...occupational biographical sheet on HERD, David J. http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/biographical/h/herd_david-j.pdf
For those searching... ships/dates for HBC voyages to Canada http://hallnjean.wordpress.com/ship-lists/
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DitzKnitz & Burntwood, don't be alarmed ....admin has split the thread to make a topic all your own! :D The last post I made above was half a stray, as the top part was for the initial thread, but I have reposted it back there. The bottom half may still come in handy if you haven't located the ship's list for George McPherson born 1840-42 Tingwall Parish who signed up 1861.
This thread also covers Samuel Grey, whose daughter married George McPherson.
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Hello. I found this forum while filling in my family tree. You've helped me to fill in more direct family, if I've followed my leads properly. Samuel Grey Sr is my Gr Gr Gr Gr Gr Grampa. Rory (Royie, Roderick) McPherson is my Gr Gr Gr Grandpa. What info were you looking for about him?
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Welcome to rootschat, ButtercupKitteh ...as you can see from the heading the poster added to an existing lookup thread, but it was split off on its own.
DitzKnitz may not get notification ( we are emailed when there is an answer to a query one has posted on ) it sometimes gets turned off....so I will private message to say there is an answer on this thread... also just looked and DitzKnitz has not been active for a while so hard to say if email account is still the same
In the meantime look around, check out the beginners advice board, etc...Have fun! J.J.
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thanks for the welcome. I was having a hard time with loading this thread on my tablet last night. I can see the info about the split now. That's cool, thank you for PMing Ditz. I'm glad I found this forum :D
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Just wondering as it sounded as though Marie grey was the wife of George McPherson, but this great little piece says his country wife was Marie Oman, and after the birth of their first child they married..
http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/mb_history/20/fortchurchill.shtml
great bit...beginning in the 1840’s the tradesmen and labourers at Churchill were increasingly members of a large extended family, a process which reached its logical conclusion in the period after 1870 when, aside from the officer in charge at Churchill, virtually everyone at the post was a Collin, a Gibeault, a Grey, a McPherson, or an Oman.
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According to the chart in that link George McPherson married Marie (Mary) Grey after the death of Maria Oman. That's a cool bit of info to add to my tree. I'll have to save that page. That -is- a great little piece.
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Did not get past the anecdotal stuff...
so Maria is for certain Maria Oman's daughter, and Henry is her son...I can see now the six years until the next birth.... I see Mary Grey was already twice a widow...what happened to Agnes Grout?
Oh, I see from the scrip perhaps Georgina and Agnes belonged to Marie Grey
McPherson or Groat or Martin Aggie -1910 Northwest Scrip
McPherson or Groat or Martin Georgina - Norway House - 1910 Northwest Scrip
& this would be Mary Oman's Mary
McPherson or Martin or Groat Mary Anne - Ft Churchill -1910 Northwest Scrip
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i'm not seeing a name listed for the daughter born to Maria Oman & George Mcpherson in 1865. Do you have a link to an additional reference document that lists if that daughter lived to start a family of her own?
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I am only going by the daughter born 1865 from the above online publication, which was likely found in the York Factory ledgers... the daughter would be Mary, Marie, Maria from the census...
I looked for them in 1870 online but cannot see them... It appears they were not certain of their own fathers...and Mary Ann her own mother, when they applied for scrip
adding...oh yeah, only the area around the Red River settlement was covered in 1870...
the rest was still considered NWT? ahh, yes, Keewatin... How short my memory has become.I was getting good at this a few years ago... ::)
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lovely -_- It would be great if they didn't name everyone Mary in some form and there not be so many Georges. Guess we'll just have to keep looking.
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From his scrip Henry ( born circa 1866) knew his mother to be Maria "Ooman", this would be another indication that Mary Anne was the daughter born in 1865.
Edward ( married Betsy Nakawas) John Robert and James Inkster McPherson, Henrietta & Frederick know their mother to be Maria Grey
Good thing this is all partially transcribed online as the metis scrip database is all messed up since the new work was done on them...as are most of the databases now on the Collections Canada website....once a very good genealogy tool, now a hard to navigate site with broken databases, and the ghosts of the old pages on Google forever so noone can ever find the proper result. (Have complained directly but nothing changes)
So thanks MNC and University of Alberta for all the work put into this, and for having the sense to not change what works
http://metisnationdatabase.ualberta.ca/MNC/search.jsp
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Oddly this event( around 1870?) is mentioned AFTER the bit about George & Mary, even though it preceded it in timeline
excerpt: "Norman Marten sought permission to marry the widow of John Groat. Griffin remarked that there really was little choice in the matter since “to all intents and purposes [they were] man & wife now, make them so legally, & we secure the Services of an Invaluable man in Norman, for a long time to come for Churchill.”
I looked back into the 1881 just now and saw Eliza ( age 15) & Robina ( says age one, they forgot the next digit as she would be in her teens ) as "Goat", then Agnes as Martin age 11...so all they needed do was consult the 1881 census....
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George McPherson had a Daughter Mariah in 1865 and she moved to Kenora and married Henry Coppard. They had sons and a Daughter Maude who married a Bradley. One son married a Markham. I am a Grandson of the Coppard -Markham marriage. Mt name is Dave Green and live in Kenora.
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