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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: bungleberry on Saturday 29 March 14 21:22 GMT (UK)
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Records here in UK reveal that my g-g-g-grandfather Richard HAVILAND was transported for stealing a horse, arriving in NSW in July 1806 on the 'Fortune'. Then things aren't so clear.
It appears that he behaved himself, and was subsequently pardoned. Several Colsec records show that he was paid by the govt for castrating cattle. Although he had a wife and family here in UK, in 1818 he apparently requested permission to marry at Paramatta. I have no info on to whom, but it probably took place because in the 1830s he may be the guy listed as father of Francis. Later he is shown as owning 20 acres at West Bargo, NSW.
As mentioned, I don’t know anything about a marriage nor, in fact, about his death. Were there more children? Do I have distant rellies in your fair country?
I’d welcome anything at all you folks can add to what little I’ve been able to find!
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A maybe for his death.
NSW death index
4793/1859 HAVILAND RICHARD father FRANCIS mother MARY district RAYMOND TERRACE
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The article at http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/688489 gives the following:
The Maitland Mercury & Hunter River General Advertiser, 26 April 1854, page 3
On the 20th instant, by the Rev. Alexander
McIntyre, Mr. Francis Haviland, of Lidney Park,
son of the late Captain Richard Haviland, of her
Majesty's Scotch Greys, and nephew of Captain
Francis Haviland, of the 2nd Dragoon Guards,
to Mary, eldest daughter of Fergus Ferguson,
Esq., of Eskdale.
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Although he had a wife and family here in UK, in 1818 he apparently requested permission to marry at Paramatta. I have no info on to whom
Here is the Request for Permission to Marry:
HAVILAND Richard Fortune (1) + EVANS Ann Lord Melville I (1) Parramatta 1 Jun 1818.
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Might be of some interest
http://gallery.records.nsw.gov.au/index.php/galleries/50-years-at-state-records-nsw/1-8/
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http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/e/F18c_e-15.htm
- Ann Evans, who came per Lord Meville in 1817 in 1818 "re: permission to marry Richard Haviland at Parramatta", then later the same year absconded from the Female Factory and was subsequently sent to Newcastle.
I don't think this marriage took place, as in 1828 an Ann Evans who arrived via Lord Meville (then aged 30) is recorded in the permission to marry record as bride of Edward Hasla (via Tottenham, then aged 34), and a NSW marriage can be found for this couple (Edward listed as "Heasler"). On the convict records index it shows that in 1830 she received her certificate of freedom and was then the wife of "Edward Haslar".
She may have died in 1833 as "Ann Hasler" aged 33.
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Richard HAVILAND has a number of mentions at the keyword index at NSW SRO….
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/collection-search
Governor’s Court Case Papers 1815-1824 (in 1820 and 1822)
Convict Index (Ticket of Leave, Conditional Pardon)
Convict Pardon dated 31 Jan 1813
Col Sec Land 1830
Land Grants in the West Bargo district
There seems to be TWO chaps named Richard HAVILAND, the one on the 1806 FORTUNE and there’s one on the 1823 RECOVERY…
The chap ex the FORTUNE ….. his surname may be mis-recorded as AVELIN on the 1806 Muster, and HAVERLAND on the 1811 muster ….
You can find entries for both chaps at the Biographical Database of Australia Is there any connection to a Hester HAVILAND, ex Gloucester Assizes 15 Jul 1807 who arrived Sydney on the SPEKE 15 Nov 1808…. (Esther HAVERLAND on the 1811 Muster, Ester EVELING on the 1814 Muster and Evlin ESTHER on the 1822, and 1823 muster)
http://www.bda-online.org.au/
Col Sec papers 1788-1825 index
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/default.htm (Richard EVELYN as alternative entry)
Cheers, JM
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Richard EVELYNN ex the Fortune, aged 67, buried Nov 23, 1832, in the Bathurst District (JM notes that Bathurst district at that time included the Abercrombie ) As per Convict Death Register 1826-1879, J E KEANE . The NSW SRO index has the vessel as “Fontaines”
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=65
NSW BDM has Early Church Record indexed as Volume 16, line 1816, of 1832 (V18321816 16/1832) As it is pre civil registration, that NSW BDM document is not likely to contain any family history information. Vol 16 is one of the many Church of England parish registers.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
Cheers, JM
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Wow! Thanks folks. I'll certainly be following the various references you've supplied so quickly.
The references to Francis have got me really confuzzled. There were loads of HAVILANDs, and they have been well researched, by better researchers than me, way back to possibly 1066 in Normandy. My own records (mainly Gloucestershire, UK) include 4 Francises (plus the one who seems to be his son) and 17 Richards. But I show the guy I'm currently trying to trace as b at Winstone, GLS, in 1768, son of Thomas (2nd marriage?), not of Francis.
I suppose a death in 1859 is just about possible? As ever, two guys of the same name muddies the water, and didn't they love to recycle names?
There seem to be various possibilities, e.g. maybe I'm wrong re Thomas, although currently I don't have a Francis who would fit the bill.
MAJM - Hester was sort of related, my 2nd coz 5 times removed so not a direct.
"I think I'll have to think it out again."
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I think your chap died Nov 1832 EV EL YNN versus HAV IL AND plus 64 v 67 for age at death is just too close when considering these records were based on Oral declarations ... even ship of arrival is close ...
Cheers JM
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MAJM - I agree. That death does look likely. Wonder if/who he did finally marry? As regards the spelling, I have seven or eight recorded in my lot, and I know from someone in New Jersey who has been running the HAVILAND website carefully for years. that there are more. The name is well researched especially in USA (including a dna study) and there's a one-name group here in UK. Olivia de Havilland, her sister Joan Fontaine, and the aeroplane man, are my 14th cousins once removed!
But I'm reviewing the situation regarding whether Thomas was Richard's father or whether I've gone off down completely the wrong track.
Thanks again.
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A maybe for his death.
4793/1859 HAVILAND RICHARD father FRANCIS mother MARY district RAYMOND TERRACE
I suppose a death in 1859 is just about possible?
Not your guy... which is quite obvious from the NSW BDM.
The above death is that of an infant.
Birth:
HAVILAND Richard b. 1858 RAYMOND TERRACE #11686
Parents: Francis & Mary
Death:
HAVILAND Richard d. 1859 RAYMOND TERRACE #4793
Parents: Francis & Mary
Another son to the same parents a few years later was given the same name:
HAVILAND Richard b. 1862 RAYMOND TERRACE #12924
Parents: Francis & Mary
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search
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OK, so we already know that a Richard had a son Francis, and now that he in turn had a son Richard who d as an infant in 1859 as an infant?
My intractable prob (which it now appears I have to resolve here in UK), is whether my g-g-g-gf Richard was s of Thomas (1738-1801) and Mary (1741-1786) as I had thought, or perhaps of Francis (1701-1787) and Mary (app 1712-1788). If the latter, my tree backwards goes haywire. It's certainly possible although at present I don't have a Richard of that marriage.
All were originally from Winstone, GLS, as were so many others. Hmmm . . .
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OK, so we already know that a Richard had a son Francis, and now that he in turn had a son Richard who d as an infant in 1859 as an infant?
I don't know what you are referring to in the above statement ???
My point was to show you that the death was not your Richard & that he was the child of Francis HAVILAND who married Mary FERGUSON in reply #2 above.
This Francis HAVILAND actually belongs to another aussie researcher & not the son of your Richard:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=34805
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=175307.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=637141.0
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Familysearch shows that a Richard (in my previous I did write a Richard) was father of Francis who m Mary Ferguson on 26 April 1854.
I must apologise that I'm just not as smart as you obviously are (as demonstrated by your two posts).
endof
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OK, so we already know that a Richard had a son Francis, and now that he in turn had a son Richard who d as an infant in 1859 as an infant?
Familysearch shows that a Richard (in my previous I did write a Richard) was father of Francis who m Mary Ferguson on 26 April 1854.
I must apologise that I'm just not as smart as you obviously are (as demonstrated by your two posts).
endof
You had a question mark at the end of the sentence, which to me suggested you possibly needed further clarification.
So, I tried to give you a guiding hand with the explanation & links.
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Richard EVELYNN ex the Fortune, aged 67, buried Nov 23, 1832, in the Bathurst District (JM notes that Bathurst district at that time included the Abercrombie ) As per Convict Death Register 1826-1879, J E KEANE . The NSW SRO index has the vessel as “Fontaines”
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=65
I think your chap died Nov 1832 EV EL YNN versus HAV IL AND plus 64 v 67 for age at death is just too close when considering these records were based on Oral declarations ... even ship of arrival is close ...
I totally agree with you JM :)
I have a copy of the original Convict Death Register page in front of me at the moment ;)
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Excuse me for butting back in
Bungleberry Do you actually have the West Bargo records or are you relying on the index...
What ship of arrival for the West Bargo applications?
Cheers JM
PS I am quite sure that 1832 burial in Vol 16 is C of E and IS Abercrombie Ie NOT West Bargo.
Records here in UK reveal that my g-g-g-grandfather Richard HAVILAND was transported for stealing a horse, arriving in NSW in July 1806 on the 'Fortune'. Then things aren't so clear.
It appears that he behaved himself, and was subsequently pardoned. Several Colsec records show that he was paid by the govt for castrating cattle. Although he had a wife and family here in UK, in 1818 he apparently requested permission to marry at Paramatta. I have no info on to whom, but it probably took place because in the 1830s he may be the guy listed as father of Francis. Later he is shown as owning 20 acres at West Bargo, NSW.
As mentioned, I don’t know anything about a marriage nor, in fact, about his death. Were there more children? Do I have distant rellies in your fair country?
I’d welcome anything at all you folks can add to what little I’ve been able to find!
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I am quite sure that 1832 burial in Vol 16 is C of E and IS Abercrombie Ie NOT West Bargo.
It is Abercrombie JM :)
EVELYNN Richard age 67yrs
Year: 1832
State: New South Wales
Ref Number: V18321816 16
Parish: Abercrombie District; Bathurst, Church of England
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Colonial Secretarys Office
1st June 1824
Sirs,
Your Letter of the 14th Ult. Having been submitted to the Governor, I have been honoured with his instruction that your application for Richard Evelyn to remain at Bathurst is granted…
I am
Sir
Your Obedt Servant
F Goulburn
Mr John MASWELL, Bathurst.
May I please note that the above letter has been indexed at SR NSW (and by its former identities) as being for Richard HAVILAND ex the Fortune 1806. I am typing this up on my e-reader, (so two finger typing, please excuse typos) so I am not able to put a live link to the index, but I have previously linked the Col Sec index 1788-1825.
I understand that Ancestry has a current partnership with NSW SRO whereby the images from the (old version) of the Col Sec papers (ie to 1825) are available via their subscription website. I understand that the letter upon which I have based my above transcription may well be available as an image. I would assume if this is the case, that it is there under HAVILAND, rather than under EVELYN…. I may well be wrong, and so I am happy to be corrected.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
John MAXWELL, Superintendent of Government Stock …….
Sydney Gaz 13 Aug 1827
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2188756
John Maxwell retires as principal superintendent of the Government Stock “Mr Maxwell is an old and confidential servent of the Government ….. the Governor ….. has overlooked neither the value nor extent of his services. By his retiring from his public situation, the prisoners who were under him have lost a friend,…”
Sydney Gaz 11 Aug 1831
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2202002
Those words “overlooked neither the value nor extent” suggest to me that there should be a land grant made to John MAXWELL in 1831. If so, may I speculate it would be in the Westmoreland County which (from memory) included Abercrombie. Further, I speculate that Richard Haviland ex the Fortune would have continued to work under John MAXWELL, on Maxwell’s land in the Abercrombie district….
Cheers, JM (borrowed puter, fingers crossed these links work ::)
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But I show the guy I'm currently trying to trace as b at Winstone, GLS, in 1768, son of Thomas (2nd marriage?), not of Francis.
I seriously doubt you will be able to firmly establish that your chap who arrived per Fortune in 1806 has any official records in NSW that expressly confirm his parentage. Civil registrations commence in NSW in 1856. Prior to that, there's SOME holdings at NSW BDM for Early Church Records. Often these are simply transmitted summaries sent to the then NSW Chaplains by various clergy of a wide variety of denominations. Baptisms often show parents and occupation. Burials do NOT. Marriages sometimes give an occupation, and usually give name of person giving consent if the bride/groom has not yet reached their majority (which was 21 years and under until the 1970s) Standardised spelling arrived with the introduction of secular compulsory schooling, which commences from around 1870s.... So you may need to take a much broader view re your Richard Haviland ex the Fortune of 1806.
Back in 1810 the then governor had issued a General Order to cover recording of baptisms and burials, and later it extended to recording marriages. Not all clergy heeded the general order. When researching NSW during the penal era, you need to join the dots very differently from say researching an English county's parish registers.
Quite a number of early NSW parish registers have been transcribed and many of these have been indexed at https://familysearch.org/search
ADD
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC1-JHF This is for a 1854 marriage that does NOT seem to be indexed online at NSW BDM but may be of interest HAVILAND=FERGUSON ....
and posted earlier on this thread :) :)
The article at http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/688489 gives the following:
The Maitland Mercury & Hunter River General Advertiser, 26 April 1854, page 3
On the 20th instant, by the Rev. Alexander McIntyre, Mr. Francis Haviland, of Lidney Park, son of the late Captain Richard Haviland, of her Majesty's Scotch Greys, and nephew of Captain Francis Haviland, of the 2nd Dragoon Guards, to Mary, eldest daughter of Fergus Ferguson, Esq., of Eskdale.
Cheers, JM
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majm is correct : Colonial Secretary's papers 1788-1825 are digitised. There are 28 mentions for Richard HAVILAND shown on the index as per Fortune 1806. Each record, however, does not always mention his ship so there's a possibility that they may not be entirely reliable.
Will summarise but the most interesting one from a genealogical point of view is this:
"List of persons praying His Excellency's permission to have their names published in church in order to their being married _ _ _ Parramatta, 1st June 1818"
Richard HAVILAND - free
Anne EVANS - prisoner, pr ship Lord Melville
Judith
Summary of other records in next post - all to do with his employment.
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Hi Jud,
I think Jorose has followed up on that 1818 Application to marry .... and found a later likely marriage for the lass
I suspect Richard would be "free" by virtue of his 1813 CP (31 Jan 1813 as per NSW SRO) and IF it was Rev Samuel Marsden making the enquiries about the two parties, then, I feel that HE was often found to be extremely diligent during the latter years of Macquarie's reign. Rev Marsden seems to have been NOT afraid to decline to marry despite permission of the Governor, if he felt one of the parties had been in contact within the previous seven years with their former spouse. Macquarie on the other hand had been issuing orders about having those co-habitating outside of marriage, married off ! and the clergy were not at all impressed by those announcements .......
For our OP, perhaps some questions may be arising.... May I pop a link to a thread which may cover some of those as yet unasked questions, and provide some answers.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=672942.0
Cheers, JM
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3 Feb 1812
Petition for mitigation of sentence. The Answer to this petition was a Ticket of Leave granted for the period of one year and to gain Emancipation if he behaved himself during that year.
5 Aug 1815
Paid from the Police Fund for erecting weaning paddock at Rooty Hill for Government
Jul 1820 Castrator of Government Stock. Memorial
19 Jan 1822 On return of horned cattle issued from the Government Herds between 22 Aug 1819 & 27 Dec 1823; Issued 3 cows for services in reclaiming wild cattle
31 Jul 1824 List of stock on various stations - "Gelding from 'Cawdor' being the horse rode by Haviland, the Castrator". I think the 'station' (ie farm) referred to is called Crooked Corner and is definitely listed as in the Bathurst area.
14 May 1824 Castrator of Government Stock. Advantage of him being permanently stationed at Bathurst; appears as EVELYN. This request is signed by Major Morrisett who wants HAVILAND to remain in Bathurst - he is referred to as Richard EVELYN throughout this letter.
31 Dec 1824 Payment made to him - sorry I can't see what for ???
1824 Salary listed in the Colonial Revenue Account - he was paid 31 pounds but i can't see what period it's for.
29 Jan 1825 Re recovery of heifer by John Macarthur from Government Herd, Bathurst. Haviland realised that the heifer did not belong to the Govt herd but was privately owned by John Macarthur
All of the other mentions are on returns of Government stock holdings.
Judith
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Ummm
I can find a CP dated Jan 1813 as per the index.... so that would be the reward from that ToL of 3 Feb 1812 :)
The other Richard Haviland I spotted on the BDA arrived 1823 :)
Yes, Crooked Corner is definitely in the Bathurst area, as per my own local history knowledge.
WoW May 1824 EVELYN and HAVILAND as same person WELL FOUND JUD.... :) :)
Cheers, JM
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Hmmm - the EVELYN/HAVILAND connection seems to have been made by the Ancestry indexer? Or is it somewhere else as well? It would seem that it's the same person though. Whether it's OP's ancestor may be another question. ;D
Judith
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I think Ancestry Indexer is simply following SR NSW lead....
The connection was made by the indexing team at the NSW Archives Office, decades ago .... see the following
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/e/F18c_e-18.htm#P8056_266118
From the old version of the ColSec index
Cheers, JM
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Thanks JM. I was hoping it was someone else as well as our friends on Ancestry. At least we know where he was till 1824.
I'm not sure if I'd like the title "Government Castrator" - although perhaps there are those who might like to take up office in that role if it meant what it could mean. But you didn't hear it from me. ::) 8) ;D ;)
Judith
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Thanks MAJM and JUDB for all that intriguing stuff.
I'm afraid you're right, MAJM, and that, failing a windfall (perhaps via Gloucestershire FHS?), the odds are that I will probably never know if the transportee was my direct ancestor. Too many damn Richards.
Despite this hiatus, the good news is that it's well established that the origin of all the Winstone, GLS HAVILANDs was from Poole, DOR. They, in turn, were an offshoot of a prominent family in Guernsey, CI, and that lot started off from the Cotentin peninsula, F.
Cheers.
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Hi there,
Records here in UK reveal that my g-g-g-grandfather Richard HAVILAND was transported ...... July 1806 on the 'Fortune'.
the odds are that I will probably never know if the transportee was my direct ancestor.
Are you saying you had not yet found UK documentation to support your direct line back to at least one of your g g g grandfathers whom you suspect was a Richard HAVILAND, and you were hoping to obtain that documentation in among the official records for Richard HAVILAND, the Castrator of Government Stock ?
I am quite sure that the chap on the Fortune in 1806 is the one buried in Nov 1832. I have no knowledge of his parents. My on going interest is in those (crew and passengers) who arrived per the Lord Melville in 1817 (including the lass Ann EVANS, once a prospective bride for Richard Haviland).
ADD
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yqi/
Locating the Industrial Revolution: Inducement and Response By Eric Lionel Jones pages 137 & 138 "Were Bougeois Values Retained and Transmitted during Downward Mobility" mentions the Richard Haviland who was transported 1806.
Cheers, JM
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Not sure if we have already had this information - apologies if we have - but it might help.
NSW Convict Index states that Richard HAVILAND, per Fortune, 1806, had been tried in Gloucester.
Judith
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Sorry, I appreciate that I was imprecise.
I do know that my g-g-g-grandfather was a Richard HAVILAND. However there are several in GLS. I had deduced on negative* evidence that the transportee (Yep, tried @ Gloucester Assizes, JUDB) must have been 'my' Richard. But now I see that "It ain't necessarily so". I certainly need to revisit it. GFHS has an open day next month, which could be useful. Anyway, a good excuse for another stayover in the sleepy Winstone area!
* negative because the others b around the same date (approx. 1768) had been tied up to different families - some by me and some by other researchers, including the normally highly dependable HAVILAND website (havilands.org) and some less reliable posts on an Ancestry board.
My renewed thanks.
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Good luck with the FHS day, Winstone looks very nice and near to Cirencester, one of my favourite places. I love the Cotswolds - so beautiful, and now it's April.............sigh..........
Let's know if you ever solve the mystery. Perhaps what we've found may help other HAVILANDs. Judith
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As a parting shot, I thought you folks might just be interested in this from the Gloucester Journal of Monday 15 October 1801 (found by my wife, who is a much better researcher than me, in FindMyPast):
Richard Haviland, horse dealer, of Winstone, in this county, was on Monday last taken into custody for stealing two carthorses from Mr Hall of Througham, but at Cirencester he found means to escape from the constable. Twenty guineas reward being, however, offered for his apprehension, we hope he will be speedily retaken.
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Do you know if he was re-captured? And do you think this is the chap who was transported? Richard, the government employee in NSW certainly seemed to become a very law-abiding person.
Judith
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Judith
I'm sorry about delay in responding - due to this PC playing Silly Bs.
Still totally unclear as to whether I'll prove anything about my g-g-g-grandfather. Certainly this one was the one transported - but was he mine?
We have arranged to visit the Cotswold area at the end of May to visit (a) the County Record Office, and (b) the Gloucestershire Family History Society Open Day. One or other might just possibly turn up something. I'm not holding my breath (but it's a good excuse for a few days away).
Bestest!
Colin
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Oh, Cotswolds............ :-*...........end of May...... :-*..... sigh................ :-*
Good luck with it anyhow.
Judith