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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: 2november78 on Wednesday 19 March 14 13:03 GMT (UK)
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Just wondering if someone could help please. I'm trying to help a relative of my husband.
I'm looking for information on James Wilkie Clement, born 27 March 1893 (in Glasgow we think). He didn't join up till 1917 (when he would have been 24) and was sent to Ireland "to fight the Black and Tans" - but the Black and Tans were the British Army, and didn't come into being till after WW1.
I will attach two photos. You will see there is a fairly big age discrepancy between the 2 attached photos. Does anyone know which Regiments they are? The older one with the moustache, is dated Feb. 1918, and was taken in Newbridge, co. Kildare, Ireland.
I've been told that he joined the Fife & Forfar Yeomanry, but have had no luck in tracing him that way.
Thank you.
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Sorry,
for some reason it won't allow me to attach the photos :-(
can anyone help with any other information please?
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hi
it looks like some family tales have got mixed up on the way down the line , the black and tans were recruited as a temporary force of constables to assist the ric, royal irish constabulary ,in 1919 many were ex service men and some irish as well .
as to james wilkie clement I,ve looked for a service record for him but I can,t see one nor even a medal index card .
so if you could post the pics and especially before you do if any cap badges or shoulder flashes are quite clear can you enhance them as mostly that's what folk go by in recognition .
regards
trevor
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Your photos need to be below the file limit of 500kbs...If you try again..you will need to rename the files a little...maybe just add a letter to the file name.
Carol
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Hopefully you can see these........
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Here's a better one of the first photo.......
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Churchill sent the Black and Tans to Ireland in 1920 so if the photo was taken in 1918 in Kildare it is most likely he was a member of the British Army stationed at The Curragh Camp in Kildare.
He would not have been fighting against them as they were recruited as back up to the Army and R I C.
Speaking as an Irishman The Tans were just a shower of lawless thugs sent over to cause mayhem in this country their conduct was disgraceful.
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Hi, 1st / 3rd photograph he is wearing the uniform of the Royal Artillary.
Regards, Frank.
2 stunning photographs by the way.
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Thank you for all your help. :D
Anymore help would be much appreciated :P
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I've tried zooming in on the cap badge on the 2nd photo.
I haven't got a clue what it is......
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Hi, I've been searching the cap badge also and cannot find a match :-\
Also I am confused (but that doesn't take much ;D )
He looks older as a sergeant, taken 1918, then he does when he was in the Artillery and was what looks to be an officer? surely he was a sergeant first.
Regards.
Frank.
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I didn't even notice that.
Could he have been demoted? I know that happened to a relative of mine.
Or if it's a different regiment (going by the badge), he might not have kept the high rank? I don't know though, i'm just guessing.
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Hi All
Does anyone think the same as me.
That they are not the same person I think the images from Royal Artillery could be from a later generation and all I place that on is the standard of cloth of the uniform.
If he was commissioned he would not have been demoted!
His birth certificate is available to download from www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Hi All
Does anyone think the same as me.
Yours Aye
BruceL
Hi, yes, I do, that's what I was getting at in my reply #10, he looks significantly older as the Sergeant in 1918 than he does as an Officer.
Regards, Frank. :)
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Would the animal in the circle of the badge be a Dragon suggesting a Welsh regiment ?
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Hi again,
I've just downloaded and enlarged the second photograph and it looks as if the tunic buttons resemble those belonging to the Scots Guards regiment. :-\
Frank.
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I've just had some more information back from my husbands relative, who i'm trying to help.
James' father was David Wilkie Clement.
She has a cutting saying "CLEMENT, Sgt. DAVID ALLAN. The younger son of Mr. D W Clement, he served in the Royal Engineers during the First world War. He was invalided home suffering from the effects of gas, and died on 19th March at East Pitkierie, aged 20. (March 1917)".
This would imply that the guy with the moustache was David Allan, but the stamp on the back of that photo reads "Newbridge February 1918" - Newbridge, Ireland, so the moustache must be James Wilkie Clement?
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Hi All
From the CWGC Site
CLEMENT, DAVID ALLAN
Rank:Serjeant
Service No:106485
Date of Death:19/03/1917
Age:20
Regiment/Service:Royal Engineers
Reserve Coy formerly Fife and Forfar Yeomanry
Grave Reference
CemeteryKILRENNY PARISH CHURCHYARD
Additional Information:
Son of D. W. and Agnes Clement, of East Pitkierie, Anstruther, Fife.
So who is in the photograph in a Artillery uniform
Yours Aye
BruceL
Added:- What makes you think it is Newbridge Ireland.
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Hi
Medal Card available to download here
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D1841671
Yours Aye
BruceL
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So who is in the photograph in a Artillery uniform
Yours Aye
Bruce
Hi, he certainly looks to be related to the Sergeant, same eye's, chin etc. :-\
Regards.
Frank.
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Hi All
David Wilkie Clement married Agnes Topping Blythswood Glasgow 1892
A look at the 1901 and 1911 census would perhaps give a clue as to who is in the Artillery uniform.
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Hi,
James F Clement is a possible, Born 1893, 8 years old in 1901.
Regards.
Frank
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Hi Frank
Could we perhaps be looking at the wrong generation.
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Hi, I'm wondering if it's Father and Son, James F Clement is shown on the 1901 census with Father David W Clement and Mother Agnes Clement.
There is also a James Clement born Abt 1893 Enlisted 1916 aged 23 into the "Res Battalion Arty"
Living at Sterling Street, Denny.
:-\ :-\ :-\
Regards.
Frank.
Need to pick OH up, will carry on later.
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Hi, I'm wondering if it's Father and Son, James F Clement is shown on the 1901 census with Father David W Clement and Mother Agnes Clement.
There is also a James Clement born Abt 1893 Enlisted 1916 aged 23 into the "Res Battalion Arty"
Living at Sterling Street, Denny.
:-\ :-\ :-\
Regards.
Frank.
Need to pick OH up, will carry on later.
Hi, I couldn't leave it alone ;D , on his enlistment paper he states his next of Kin as his Mother, "Mrs Agnes Clement".
Frank.
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That's brilliant!!!
Thank you.
Frank, where did you find this information please?
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Hi 2november78, I had a very quick look on A***stry but not in depth, hopefully the information ties in for you, ;)
Best regards always.
Frank.
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Ah. Just seen that. It can't be him. :-\ It say's he was 'killed in action'. James survived. It was his brother who died ???
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Hi, yeah, just found that myself, says his Father was called James as well :-\ :-\
Ah well, onwards and hopefully upwards, ;)
Frank.
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I've just had some more information back from my husbands relative, who i'm trying to help.
James' father was David Wilkie Clement.
She has a cutting saying "CLEMENT, Sgt. DAVID ALLAN. The younger son of Mr. D W Clement, he served in the Royal Engineers during the First world War. He was invalided home suffering from the effects of gas, and died on 19th March at East Pitkierie, aged 20. (March 1917)".
This would imply that the guy with the moustache was David Allan, but the stamp on the back of that photo reads "Newbridge February 1918" - Newbridge, Ireland, so the moustache must be James Wilkie Clement?
Hi, are you aware that David A Clements service record is available on Ancestry?
Also,are you sure that Newbridge is in Ireland? is this on the back of the photograph because there are many places called Newbridge, including one which is a suburb of Edinburgh.
Regards.
Frank.
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Hi,
Yes, it is definitely Co. Kildare, Ireland.
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hi all
just had a good read of service record of david allen clement re now its in a pretty poor state on most pages in fact well charred and some water damage but still a lot of info left .
david had a brother and 2 sisters .
james w clement 26
may s clement 26
elsie clement 18
davids death is well documented as being caused by diabetes this was also the reason he was discharged unfit for further duty , NO mention of gas at all
he was attended on the day he died by a dr Wilson .
there are numerous letters and correspondence from his father to the army and vice versa .
although as I say the record is somewhat burnt it would be worthwhile downloading it as an historical document , you can take out a free trial with ancestry for a fortnight but make sure to cancel the sub before it ends .
hope this helps all .
trevor
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Hi, it's pretty sad reading the short letter from his father and the physician confirming his death.
Frank.
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yes frank when you can actually read something like this it does bring home the futility of war and in this case it seems to me he shouldn,t have passed a medical in the first place if he had diabetes that bad , and the amount of times his father has to put pen to paper in answer to the bureaucracy from the army for form filling when he,s just lost a son is appalling .
regards
trevor
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Can anyone give me an clues / sites as to where I could do some more research and find anymore information on James Wilkie Clement please? ???
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what sort of thing do you have in mind ? military or civilian or both
trevor
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Both if possible please :)