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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: bantumi69 on Saturday 15 March 14 15:38 GMT (UK)
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Stuck!!! Hi, all i have is i am wayne martin in south africa my dad was born motherwell 1946 from parents Jack James Martin (b1916) and May Whittingham (b1920)
Mom was born 1953 from Leslie Short (b1911) and Loiusa Bothney Von Kerken (b1916). Leslie was son of Robert Galbraith Short (b1869) in scotland. There is mention of st Helena island and stuff but still confused. Would like some help on both sides if anybody can help, i will fill in any blanks i have. Thanks in advance.
Edited for living/possibly living persons
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Hi Wayne
This is the 2nd request for help with regards to your family, 1st request on the South Africa board is here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=662165.0
You mention births but no marriages or deaths and you don't mention when the family came to South Africa.
Have you purchased and birth, marriage or death certificates that will give you more information?
Have you found any families in the censuses?
Dawn
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hi apart from the information i recieved on here about robert galbraith short on here i have still been unable to obtain any other information further about either side. Unfortunately records here in south africa are very very few so i cant trace much here. Given that my family all orignate from scotland with the exception of my gran on my mothers side louisa bothney von kerken. I am a bit stumped. I will obviously need to spend some money now to get further it seems. I was hoping there might be more foir me to go on.
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Hi Wayne ,
Have you tried http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ for Scottish records(Paysite) ?
There are limits to what you can see online so likely certificates to get you started would probably have to be ordered.
Can't see a c1911 birth for a Leslie Short in Scotland.
ev
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hi i will give that a bash as soon as funds are available, the exchange rate for the south african rand kills me lol.
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Maybe , James Martin / Mary Whittingham marriage 1940 Dalziel , Lanark.
Mary Martin(other surname Whittingham) death 2006 , Motherwell Lanark , born c1920.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
ev
Added - the 1940 marriage certificate should give you the names of both sets of parents , however it will not be available online.
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it does seem to tie up, ok i will need to get funds to buy the stuff and confirm, thanks for everything.
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ok, just confirmed with my mom, that the james and mary do seem to be accurate, mae seems to have been a kind of nick name or shortening of name and was more commonly used. Also the dates do add up. How much will this all cost to get more details, sorry i am still new at this?
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http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&412
ev
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There was a George James W Martin born at Motherwell in 1946. It is on Scotlands People.
What you really need to tell us is when they went to South Africa. You see, the ships records only go up to 1960, so if it was any later than that then they won't be on the ships records at all.
Did Jack James Martin go to South Africa with Mary (Mae) Whittingham Martin when George James Martin was still a young boy? Did they go in the 1950's perhaps?
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My Dad being George James Whittingham Martin came to south africa on his own at the age of 18 by plane that would have been 1964 abouts i think. I have got accounts on acnestry and scotlands people, but i am finding it difficult to get any results when i search.
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doddsie: How did you find that record i cant find anything on scotlands people being new to this i might be searching wrong somehow.
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Hi bantumi69
Have you seen this post on the Robert Galbraith Short side of the family www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=639209.0
Quoting a little from there, they have a Robert Galbraith Short and Elizabeth Denton in St Helena. Some of the children:
Eleanor, b. Circa 1865. teacher
Amy, b. 9 September 1866, m. Frank Bateman
William, b. 11 April 1869
Amy, b. 9 September 1866, m. Frank Bateman
Emma Minnie, b 27 March 1871,m William Porter Firth, d. 4 June 1935
Edith Mary, b. 4 February 1874, m. Tom Aitken
Robert Galbraith, b. 13 July 1875. m....would this be the father of Leslie Short?
Mabel, b 21 March 1879, d. 5th April 1879
Robert Snr. appears to died in March 1911 having survived his wife by a few years.
Monica
Added: That's good :) Seems you have caught up with another of the threads on this side www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=372384.msg4862296#msg4862296
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i have read that yes and i responded a bit in there as well, it all ties up perfectly with my family side as well only the dates seem to be a bit off
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oh and yes that would be leslie's dad yes, my great grandfather robert would be.
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Grandfather Leslie William Short born c.1911 that you show. He wasn't born in Scotland was he? Nothing shows as a possible birth for him on Scotlands People. Maybe his line never returned to Scotland?
Monica
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Have you had a look at Family Search? https://familysearch.org/search
Possible entry for Eleanor born c. 1865 from above on a shipping manifest 1940 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/24LS-8V9
Your great grandfather Robert possibly back in England for 1891 as a 15 yr old student https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/QN5W-F2M
You mentioned earlier in another thread that you weren't sure whether Elizabeth wife of gg grandfather Robert was a Denton or Patton. This entry from the 1881 census, with one the Short girls staying with an aunt in England points to Denton. Emma Denton's occupation also fits well with that of her sister's Elizabeth before she married Robert in St Helena from other's research into this https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3F5-692?cc=1321821
One further 1881 census entry for another Short girl also looks to be a student in England https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQ9L-3TK
Monica
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WOW, lots for me to start going through, thank you so much. According to my mom her dad leslie was born in scotland in 1911, i know that they dropped the Galbraith and it just become Short as a surname and that he died around 1976 or so in south africa where they moved to. They moved to south africa in november 1959 by ship and docked in Cape Town. I hope that helps, his full name was leslie william short
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Can't see a Scottish birth for him at all. Ev too looked before and nothing showed for her either :-\ You can do free general searches yourselves on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk You only have to pay/use units to view search results or images. There are four entries in Scotland for the births of a William Short between 1910-12. You would have to view the actual image to see the name of parents.
I can't see a marriage either for your grandparents Leslie and Louisa in the UK either. Do you know when or where they married?. You say your mum was born 1953. Was this in the UK or in South Africa. It is only because you mentioned your Short family arriving in SA in 1959.
Monica
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I don't think you have mentioned elsewhere, and might help hopefully in trying to find anything further back. What was the name of Leslie's mother?
Monica
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On Scotlands People, if you type in George Martin and make the birth range 1946 to 1946, then for county, it is Lanark. The district is Dalziel. That gets it. If you are looking for anything else for Motherwell, try making the district Dalziel. Let me know if you still can't get it. Only drawback is that this is such a recent birth that you can't open up the certificate on screen. You have to buy it and get it sent to you.
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guys i really appreciate all your help on this. From what i gather the mother of leslie ties up with whats here being elizabeth denton, some people thought it was paton, but all that dates and stuff add up. My mom says she was born in the UK in motherwell, but i dont really believe her at the moment and am now thinking she might have been born here in south africa. S. E. S edited. is her full name. and again thank you guys so much. I tried the search but it comes up saying i have to pay 7 pounds to view the results and there was only one result for george martin, tried the same thing with james jack martin in 1916, but got nothing at all when i tried glasgow city, glasgow cause thats where i was told he comes from.
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Memories sometimes get confused over time...You may not find people's BMDs where you have been led to believe you might find them.
You naturally have two lines to follow up on:
Your father's side - Martin & Whittingham.
This seems much more straightforward. Ev and Doddsie have added lots of details here already:
- Their marriage: James Martin / Mary Whittingham marriage 1940 Dalziel , Lanark.
- Likely Mary's death: Mary Martin(other surname Whittingham) death 2006 , Motherwell Lanark , born c1920.
- George James W Martin born at Motherwell/Dalziel in 1946.
- Your Dad, George James Whittingham Martin, came to South Africa on his own, at the age of 18 c. 1964
Given the years involved, you cannot view any of these certificates online due to data protection/privacy issues. See these help notes for guidance on availability of records on SP www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&413
Scottish marriage certs are really informative and include full names of parents for bride and groom. Once you have confirmed the details from the 1940 marriage for your paternal grandparents, you should be able to work back to next generation with that info. Gets easier to find details the further back you go, but bear in mind there will still be cut off for viewing material online for births during the last 100 years.
I will do a separate post below on your mum side...
Monica
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thank you, all this is going into a couple of docs and then i can try from there, so the most obvious step would be to maybe get my mom and dads marriage cert., then my grandparents and so on i think then at least i can get names, follow the names up with birth certs. and death certs, i hope thats right at least. No way around me having to pay obviously which i will do, rand to pound is a massive jump though haha.
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Your maternal side is a lot more tricky all round isn't it.
From what I have read of everyone's research, some of it added as links to this thread, you have the names Galbraith and Short.
In essence, question mark on the birth of Robert Galbraith born in England c. 1839 (not Scotland, according to 1841 and 1851 censuses for him and adopted family/Uncle Richard Short and wife). He was given the surname of Short by his Uncle Short. This line then became Short, although Galbraith was used as a middle name for children down the line. He may have been illegitimate and the issue of a Sea Captain father just a story. It is thought that Aunt Short might have been Galbraith and there is a Scottish link to her. He left for St Helena to live and trade there (likely died there too?).
He married an Elizabeth Denton, school mistress from Hull England, on 23rd June 1863 in Jamestown, St Helena and had children. Not clear when Elizabeth died. I found potentially an additional daughter, Jane born c. 1890, not listed in that earlier list of children for Robert and Elizabeth. If correct, maybe Elizabeth died after this year.
One of their children, named after his father, a Robert Galbraith Short born on 13 July 1875 in St Helena. This we think is your grandfather (although you thought he was born closer to 1869 - the dates quoted look specific and likely to have been researched from St Helena registers - you would need to double check these sources really to satisfy yourself on dates etc).
We have your Grandfather showing in England as a student in 1891 - linked above from the English census/family search.
At this point, I cannot see any more trace of your grandfather, nor his son, your father Leslie William Short's birth or marriage.
When I asked if you knew the name of your grandfather Robert (b.1875) Galbraith Short's wife, you are getting confused with your gg grandfather Robert (born c.1839). We know it was Robert (1839) who married Elizabeth Denton and is your gg grandmother on your mother's side. She was mother to Robert b. 1875. So we have:
Robert Galbraith Short b. 1839 m. Elizabeth Denton in 1863 St Helena
Robert Galbraith Short b. 1875 in St Helena m. who/when/where?
Leslie William Short b. circa 1911 but where? and married Loiusa Bothney Von Kerken but when and where did they marry?
That is as far as I can see!
Monica
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its a really huge help to have it all summerized like this and gives me a bit to go on, the only way forward is to get some legal docs which i will have to pay for and take it from there. You have bean an amazing help, if you were in south africa i would have treated you to dinner lol.
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;D Let us know how you get on with your searches please - everyone loves to hear how searches work out in the longer run.
Monica :)
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sure will. :D
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ok already a developement i sent out the info to family and i was told that first my great grandfather Robert married Sarah Elizabeth Jones from st helena. Also she sent me this info via email:
Hi,
The Robert Galbraith Short below that was born in St Helena (? Would that make us saints and not Scots? LOL) in 1875 could very well have been my grandfather because the dates fit. He died at the age of 84 in Alberton when I was 6 which was in 1959, which counts back to 1875.
The only Jane Short we have turned up so far was one of the children mentioned in the email attached.
So i see how difficult this can be now, its a good challenege i suppose ;D
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oh and Alberton is a town in south africa.
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...and i was told that first my great grandfather Robert married Sarah Elizabeth Jones from st helena...
Guess you mean grandfather Robert b. 1875? If so, Leslie William Short was the son of Robert Galbraith Short b. 1875 and Sarah Elizabeth Jones?
So Robert Galbraith Short b. 1875 married a girl from St Helena? They could have married there perhaps? Gone on straight to SA?
Monica
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i believe they were married first before coming to SA, its me then my mom sharon, then my grandfather leslie and thereafter my great grandfather robert. This could maybe explain why leslie birth cannot be found in scotland or st helena maybe he was born here in SA.
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See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,372384.msg4862264.html#msg4862264 for my thoughts on the mother of the illegitimate Robert Galbraith b 1839, later known as Robert Galbraith Short after he was adopted by his mother's sister
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I don't like to leave loose ends dangling, so here's an update on the Galbraith family. A visitor to St Helena recently sent me photographs of the wills of Robert Galbraith who died in 1868,and Robert Galbraith Short, his nephew born 1838, who died in 1911.
In the earlier will Robert Galbraith consistently referred to his nephew as Robert Galbraith Roper, then ruled through Roper and added Short above and initialled the alteration. There's a birth registration in Berwick-upon-Tweed in the Dec quarter 1838 of Robert Galbraith Roper (don't ask; no idea how I failed to spot this three years ago!). The birth cert arrived last week and his parents are shown as John Roper, shoemaker, and Jane Roper formerly Galbraith. The informant was Jane Roper. One problem: I can't see a marriage between John Roper and Jane Galbraith. I can find John Roper shoemaker and Jane Galbraith in subsequent censuses, but are unmarried and not living together. But no John and Jane Roper. Cynical old codger that I am, I suspect that Jane Galbraith registered the birth as Roper to hide the illegitimacy.
Jane Galbraith was the sister of Robert Galbraith on St Helena, and of Eleanor Short née Galbraith who adopted Robert Galbraith Roper.
bantumi69 - Robert Galbraith Short married Elizabeth Denton in 1863 in St Helena, and had a son Robert Galbraith Short in 1875. Did this Robert Galbraith Short move to South Africa at some time after 1896 (when he was initiated into the Freemasons in St Helena)?