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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: f1rocco on Thursday 13 March 14 02:26 GMT (UK)
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Very interesting story with my great grandmother.. Sort of that family secret that nobody would talk and nobody would ever bring up.. Never
Here's what I know ..
Winifred Glanston female..
Was born about 1890 +\- 5 years..
Looks to be Glasgow area
I feel her b-date could be 1894
I have a gut feeling she came to USA at 16 not 20yrs old.. When she died in 1930 the newspaper says she was 36.. But marriage and ellis island says 1890 +\- 1..
I found her I believe ellis island from Glasgow Scotland in 1910 with nobody with same last name..
Ship was the " caledonia"
She traveled an settled down that same year in Rochester New York and married James Shields on December 6th 1910.. Kinda quick like 5 months in country..
She was shot and killed during a botched burglary attempt during the Great Depression on New Year's Day 1930... Her husband and two oldest sons were also involved in this burglary attempt..
She was then buried in an unmarked grave which only a few ever knew about..
I unlocked the secret thanks to all of you here and as well my mad skills..
I would love to find all I can about my great grandmother prior to the USA chapter.. Her life in Scotland or where ever.. I need her birthdate so I can give her a headstone with maiden name etc for others later..
Thanks again everyone..
Jason Shields
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Hi Jason,
If you go back to Ellis Island records, there are a few clues that may help you. On page 94, she gives her relative in Scotland as an Uncle Edward Bonar, 14 Broompark St, Glasgow andshe is no 27 on list, if you then go to page 95, the relative that she is going to meet is a sister, Mrs Cath Shields, 286 Reynolds St, Rochester, New York.
I think you may need to investigate her sister's marriage to a "Shields", it could have been an arranged marriage, arranged by her sister I mean, hence the quick wedding.
Tom
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Hi Jason,
I have found a family of Glanstons with a 29yo niece Jessie C Bonar staying with them in 1901 census.
James Glanston 51yo Shipyard Engineer b Glasgow
Margaret Glanston 46yo b Ireland
Mary Halliday Glanston 10yo b Glasgow, her BC is on SP, and there is the no Winifred Glanston birth registered on SP between 1855 and 2012. There is also no Mary Glanston in the 1911 census.
I have found the family on Edward Bonar in the 1891 census at 196 Rottenrow in Glasgow,
Edward Bonar 51 Bookbinder finisher Unemp b Glasgow
Jessis Bonar suspect 18yo daughter b Glasgow
James Glanston 41 Steam Engine Fitter b Glasgow
Margaret Glanston 36 b Ireland
Mary H Glanston 8 months b Glasgow
This seems to tie up with the details that "Winifred" gave to Ellis Island records. I think that "Winifred" could be Mary Halliday Glanston but how does one prove it now.
Tom
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Hi jason,
Gave it a little bit thought, why would someone so young travel to USA, thinking that parents died. Looked up the DC of widow Margaret Glanston she died November 1906 of Carcinoma of the Liver, Her parents were John Bonar ( Pattern Designer) and Mary Halliday (both deceased) and it was signed by daughter, Winifred. I wonder if she didn't like the Mary Halliday part of her name.
If you want a copy of the DC, please PM me.
Tom
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Wow, Tom! Great sleuthing there ;D
Jason, I think you have the marriage already as you have mentioned it, but just adding here for reference https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XVGL-BB9
Curious who the sister "catherine shields" living in Rochester is and included on the manifest was? Maybe the US directories may give you more answers for that. Only Mary/Winifred seems to show with parents in 1891 and 1901 from what you found Tom. Also, I think parents James and Margaret only got married in 1890 in Glasgow.
Jason, 5 months between arriving in the US and getting married is not quick! Many met and married in weeks ::)
Monica
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Adding this for background(from one of Jason's other posts) -
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19300222&id=ZWZQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Ew8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6964,4079210
ev
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Thanks all..
Awww shucks I have to go to work so I will be back in about 11 hours to read thru and start my sleuthing as well..
The address on Reynolds street in rochester is interesting.. Maybe Winifred's future brother in laws home.. James shields brother came to the USA prior to james.. I think if I remember correctly it may have been a Catherine .. Maybe those two were neighbors or related..
I know about the juicy newspaper article below I haven't read it but I know all the details from our local newspaper.. I sleuthed that one years ago...
It was during the great depression and from traveling from Glasgow through New York City and then to rochester in a 2 year period and no jobs .. Well probably toughens up a woman a little bit..
Thanks all I will be back later gotta go to work..
Jason
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I couldn't resist I had a few minutes left before work.
Interesting with Winifred's parents and name.. Has me thinking .. Did they live in bad neighborhood.. Criminal past .. Maybe winifred already married maybe even children in Scotland.. Maybe the slight name change..I believe she was one tough street smart gal.. Everyone that would not want me to find out has passed now so me knowing isn't going to upset anyone..
Gotta take the good with the bad.. Our family has been a terrific family to me and all.. I have no regrets..
I have numerous other post on here I'll have to search james shields brother who came over the year before and where he lived.. I believe he came to USA from Scotland twice and who he was married to..
I believe my good post was
Shiels Ellen nute
5 years ago I knew every name and year.. But now my dates and names are off.. I have to read my post again to get my sleuthing thoughts back..
Thanks again
Jason
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Jason, it has been a while since you started...2008 www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=280255.0 That was a fun search with Ambly's help too.
Added: also adding this link to further link! www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,278748.0.html
Winifred sounds a fascinating character ;) Wish I had one of those ancestors in my lines ::)
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I found one of Jason's posts August 2004 on Genforum, a genealogy website, see
http://genforum.genealogy.com/shields/messages/2826.html (http://genforum.genealogy.com/shields/messages/2826.html)
so it has been a long trail for Jason.
I have been searching newspapers in Scotland, looking for evidence of housebreaking events in Glasgow by Winifred/Mary Glanston and James Shields but no luck so far.
Tom
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Hi Tom
I am with James Shields on this one (having read the newspaper report added by Ev earlier). Winifred looks positively formidable!
For the times, with people trying to survive and raise their families, life was tough wasn't it. Likely no different to Winifred/Mary and James Shield's early years growing up in Glasgow at that time.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Yes, type of lady that you hand over the pay packet unopened. Yes, Glasgow at that time had its share of crooks etc, it was quite rough. I wonder if they met each other in Glasgow and had arranged for her to come out.
Tom
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The Death Registration of James Glanston (Engine fitter Journeyman) in 1905 has his address as 37 Sydney Street Saltcoats and from the Valuations Rolls of 1905 his neighbours included an inspector of weights and measure, lecturer on Botany, ironmonger, insurance agent, artificial limb maker, painters and a flesher. So not a poor and rough area, 'twas only after his death that things appear to get a little bit harder even more so on her mother's death. However things did happen Saltcoats:
"June 23, 1905
A procession consisting of 23 prison-bound tramps and 11 policemen went along Princes Street, Ardrossan, on Friday. The local police had been making a raid on those who sleep out o'night."
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All adds background here, Unë kthimi i papenduar :)
So, James died in 1905 in Saltcoats Ayrshire. Tom, Margaret died where?
Monica
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There is an entry in Wills & Testaments on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk which fits with what you have found, Unë kthimi i papenduar:
James GLANSTON, 4 August 1905 at 37 SYDNEY STREET, SALTCOATS, D. 12/06/1905 at GLASGOW - INTESTATE. KILMARNOCK SHERIFF COURT INVENTORIES ref. SC7/28/2
It looks to be an inventory of effects so may not include anything that may add to the family details really, other than interesting background.
Monica
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Hi Monica et all,
Margaret died Coventry Drive, Glasgow.
Saltcoats was (is) a lovely place in the Victorian era, up until 30 to 40 years ago, Clydesiders flocked there during the holidays. Now the Spanish Costas take all the Glasgow Fair crowd.
My Great Grandfather was born in Salltcoats, married in Old Ardrossan Parish church, and stayed in Stevenston, which is the Three Towns area.
Tom
PS changed from Coventry Street to Coventry Drive. It looks like the tenements of Coventry Drive have been replaced with modern housing.
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I wonder if they met each other in Glasgow and had arranged for her to come out.
Tom
Or I wonder if he was running away from her but not fast nor far enough..
Lol..
Quick search of my notes
Catherine shields might have been married to alexander shields.. Possibly.. 3/27/1910.. I have alexander marrying but no name..
I'm still on my phone no PC at home but my notes might say ellis island shows his wife or someone of interest..
Too bad there wasn't a search of this location on Reynolds street I'm thinking it was a Scottish safe house in rochester for everyone else connected to come to..
Appears both james and brother alexander married in 1910 my guess same address I think was
286 Reynolds street
Rochester , New York
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Jason, likely wife for Alexander was a Catherine. I couldn't easily see them in 1910, but this looks like them in 1920. They show as having married in 1910. The address I think shows as 35 Jefferson Avenue, Rochester Ward 11, Monroe, New York:
Alexander B Shields 36, constructor (building) b. Scotland
Catharine Shields 35 b. Scotland
Margaret Shields 9 b. Pennsylvania
Mary Shields 7 b. NY
Arthur Shields 4 b. NY
Catharine Shields 2 b. NY
The 1910 census was on April 15 that year. If you have a possible marriage date for Alexander of 3/27/1910, likely they are there somewhere in 1910...just mislaid for now ::)
Monica
Added: Just found the census links from Family Search. 1920, as above, https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MJGQ-6CL and 1930 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/S5HL-H3Z
Ahh...the sheer joy of Family Search! 1940 here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VTZ6-M99
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Hi Jason,
I have Alexander Shields arriving in New York 27th March 1910 on the "Columbia" so not sure if he would get married on that date. His oldest child, Margaret was born in Pennsylvania, that must have been in 1910 as well, on the ship's manifest, he gave final destination as Pitsburg, Pa., so they may have set up there at first then moved to Rochester, shortly after.
I was looking for a Catherine on the "Columbia" only saw 1 from Row, Dumbartonshire. A Catherine McDonald, when you click on her name on ships manifest the wrong record comes back, so unable to accept or reject her.
Did you ever find the marriage certificate for Alexander and Catherine?
Tom
PS Was reading your old post, "Shiels Ellen Nute", I was born 100 yards from Myles farm in Tranent, its a small world.
PPS * destination not detonation.
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I find it interesting that Catherine shields has two daughters named Mary and Margaret .. Same names as in Winifred's / Mary. Family..
I was told alexander went to Florida to help build the new cities.. I guess Florida was just starting to become what is now in the 1920s ...
Just like james I believe alexander was a carpenter.. Earned his degree in Scotland .. I have james parchment paper from Scotland like 1909 I believe ...
Here in rochester james obit noted he helped build some of the cities buildings..
Also based on Florida census know makes sense that Alexander was in Florida with Catherine in 1930 when tragedy struck my side of the family with James and winifred .. Or the kids might have stayed with alexander ..
Jason
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Hi Jason,
He must have stayed in Pennsylvana first then New York, before going to Miami, Florida.
Margaret Shields F 20 Pennsylvania
Mary Shields F 17 New York
Arthur J Shields M 14 New York
Catherine Shields F 12 New York
Unless he was travelling to Miami but keeping his family in NY.
Tom
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There's two ship logs from ellis with alexander first is Pennsylvania then a year or so later he left Scotland again on a ship to stay in rochester.. He was a busy bee...
Jason
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Hi Jason,
I only see the 26 yo Alexander Shields on the Columbia arriving 27 March 1910. The other ones are either Irish or the wrong ages.
Did you ever get Alexanders marriage certificate, to get Catherine's name etc?
Tom
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Nope haven't tried hunting the marriage certificate .. I do all my searching through google.. No pay sites for me so far.. I like the hunt..
My computer broke so all my favorites etc are gone.. Doing everything through the iPhone..
Thanks and sorry... I may get another PC I love this stuff.. My new hobby might just do what all you nice people are doing for me.. It's fun to hunt and paint the picture ..
Thanks
Jason
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So just for roundness:
When James (son of Peter and Ellen) came over on the Furnessia in May 1910, he gave his "home" contact as Mother, Ellen SHIELDS of 84 John St Glasgow - and his destination contact in Rochester NY as Brother in Law, Wm. Reid. All ties in rather lovely.
Was Alexander B's wife already in US in 1910 when he came in - I note he is in the Census in Dade, with wife Catherine and a daughter born 1910....?
The above was a post from another topic related to my family here..
I started searching for a Catherine Reid .. Ellis island .. Brother in law...?
So if alexander and james are not married but Hugh Reid a brother in law.. And neighbors in Scotland ..
Hmmm.. Street addresses..
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Hi Jason,
He must have stayed in Pennsylvana first then New York, before going to Miami, Florida.
Margaret Shields F 20 Pennsylvania
Mary Shields F 17 New York
Arthur J Shields M 14 New York
Catherine Shields F 12 New York
Unless he was travelling to Miami but keeping his family in NY.
Tom
This above where is this from.. I look at kids age and different cities and think census prior to 1930.. Something is here .. I feel it..
Thanks Jason ..
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Catherine had to be in pa in 1909..
Or
Just has to be or another shields I dont know about in PA..
I found an older alexander shields in pa on ellis ..
Cool thing is the alexander and Catherine combo we are talking about has I think the middle name blackie.. Alexander b. shields .. That was Alex's fathers peters shields grandfathers last name in his mothers side..
It isn't totally proven but all the census show his name going from Peter blackie to peter shields... We believe alexander and james shields dad peter was born during the Myles farm era with a farmhand Janet blackie..
There's a boat load of info on this forum with my family and links and only possible with good people like you all.. Thanks everyone ..
Monica here remembers all about that other believed family oopsie.. George shiells 1851 with Janet blackie .. Farmhands at Myles farm.. Peter was born and raised by the blackies alexander blackie the grandfather..George and Janet were not married at this time..
I just gotta tell everyone here..I love my Monica .. Thanks Monica for all the help you have given me here..
Jason
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;D It is always a team effort here on RC, Jason. We love you being here too and your family is soooo interesting to research... ;)
Monica
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The power of the internet. I am in a big rush as I am out of town for a couple of days so was just checking some stuff for Catherine and Alexander....and up pops this:
http://obits.dignitymemorial.com/dignity-memorial/obituary.aspx?n=Catherine-Williams&lc=2325&pid=153255613&mid=4786895
Now, I wonder if this is mother Catherine's death (given the middle name ref of Deary). From the index:
Catherine Deary Shields d. 3 Jan 1985 at Dade, Florida. Age 99 (nearly got to the century!). White and birth date: 13 June 1885.
Monica
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This above where is this from.. I look at kids age and different cities and think census prior to 1930.. Something is here .. I feel it..
Jason, in case you missed it. We have census details now for Alexander and Catherine for 1920/1930/1940 (see post # 17). It is 1910 that is outstanding yet.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Just searched SP for birth of a Catherine Deary around 1885, and nearest is born 1892 far too late for our purposes.
Tom
PS Jason, I used a Paysite to find this info.
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Nope haven't tried hunting the marriage certificate .. I do all my searching through google.. No pay sites for me so far.. I like the hunt..
Just be aware
1. It is impossible to research accurately in Scotland without using www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, which is a pay site.
2. Be very, very wary indeed of anything you find by googling, and especially anything you find on any online family tree. Never believe anything you find online unless and until you have tracked down and checked the original documents to support it.
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Hi Monica,
Revisited SP with wildcards in the surname, used de*r*, and got about 5 or 6 possibles. I will check ancestry for 1891 and 1901 census for possible catherine deary and possible spelling variations.
Tom
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The link to Catherine Williams obit is amazing.. 100% connected.. What's amazing as listing of Blackie for Alexander's middle name which was actually his fathers Peters 1856 aprox given last name prior to taking the name Shields. Due to unwed birth..It appears also to be Shiells prior to Peter.. It's connected for sure peter was just the new branch
So if blackie is a middle name is Catherine's name Deary a middle name as well..
The obit seems very detailed like someone knows a great detail about the family so I'm thinking Deary is a maiden name.. But maybe not..
So the other question is a brother in law Hugh Reid in rochester ny .. It doesn't appear so far to be neither Catherine's or Winifred's so far..
I'm thinking a dead end or was to be a brother in law but maybe winifred won james over..
Or more likely alexander and james lived next door to Hugh Reid in Glasgow prior to coming over to USA and named Hugh Reid as a brother in law rather then a best friend..
Winifred's exact birthdate would be great... Then we can get her a headstone for proper burial..
I was told years ago I could probably get the arrest and homicide report from our local police on Winifred..
I'm just not ready to see what's in there.. I could open it up to see morgue pictures etc.. That's a little too much...
Thanks Jason
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This above where is this from.. I look at kids age and different cities and think census prior to 1930.. Something is here .. I feel it..
Jason, in case you missed it. We have census details now for Alexander and Catherine for 1920/1930/1940 (see post # 17). It is 1910 that is outstanding yet.
Monica
I can't seem to open link.. iPhone troubles I guess.. I will try at my mothers house tomorrow..
Also that Hugh Reid in rochester USA that could even be a brother of a brother in law from Glasgow... I don't believe the investigation is worth while.. Now anyways.. It can go in so many directions..
Thanks
Jason
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Hi Jason, back now. Brother in law's 50th Birthday party in a big country hotel....crazy ;D
Hopefully you can access the LDS/Family Search census details for Alexander, Catherine and family elsewhere.
I love American obits! They are the full blown genealogy bible. The UK stuff is insignigicant compared to the US for this.
I did see a couple of Catherine Dearies births in the Glasgow area on Scotlands People yesterday but showing as 1886 not 1885. Corresponding census entries too I thought for 1891/1901. Hard to say more for now... I would guess for now that Dearie/y is Catherine's maiden name in terms of common practice and how maiden names were used for Scottish women (regardless this was in the US). But, needs to be confirmed really.
Would Catherine Deary Shields's death at the age of 99 (not confirmed, but likely the right entry from what we have) have merited an OBIT...very likely. We had from earlier:
Catherine Deary Shields d. 3 Jan 1985 at Dade, Florida. Age 99 (nearly got to the century!). White and birth date: 13 June 1885.
Not sure or confident as always about US sources, Jason. Perhaps you can have a look around there for a possible obit for Catherine Snr?
Monica :)
PS: Guess your family line has not had anything to do with the descendants for Alexander & Catherine Shields in Miami over the years?
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Winifred's exact birthdate would be great... Then we can get her a headstone for proper burial..
I was told years ago I could probably get the arrest and homicide report from our local police on Winifred..
I'm just not ready to see what's in there.. I could open it up to see morgue pictures etc.. That's a little too much...
If you, I would follow up on the arrest & homocide report. Get someone to vet this for you in terms of tricky photographic material if relevant... This is likely to give very pertinent key facts, which often newspaper reporting glosses over.
I did this type of research for someone not too long ago (you know me..I get obsessed ::) ;D) at the National Archives in London. A criminal case, "the Merry Widow of Windynook" who rat poisoned her husbands 8) and the last woman to be sentenced to death in the UK for murder in 1958 (sentence commuted...the end of the death sentences in the UK in the late 1950s). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Elizabeth_Wilson Mary Elizabeth Wilson (c. 1893 - 1963), was the great grandmother of the lovely Andria :-* here on RC who has some of the most interesting ancestors I have ever come across ;D
The point is, whilst working through boxes at the National Archives, I came across photos (evidence) which disturbed me...so I understand :-\ But, you have worked so hard on this history and Winifred (good and bad) is part of it, so this is all part of the full picture. But...you can filter out unpleaseant visuals along the way always.
Monica
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Was trying to find a death online for Alexander B Shields online. This may his indexed entry:
Alexander B Shields, died Jun 1969 in Dade, Florida.
Jason, remind me, where does Hugh Reid step in... You have mentioned him in the last few posts. Trying to find where mention of his starts.
Monica
Added: This fits with the post Tom mentioned earlier here http://genforum.genealogy.com/shields/messages/3001.html
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Hi Jason,
I have Alexander Shields arriving in New York 27th March 1910 on the "Columbia" so not sure if he would get married on that date. His oldest child, Margaret was born in Pennsylvania, that must have been in 1910 as well, on the ship's manifest, he gave final destination as Pitsburg, Pa., so they may have set up there at first then moved to Rochester, shortly after.
I was looking for a Catherine on the "Columbia" only saw 1 from Row, Dumbartonshire. A Catherine McDonald, when you click on her name on ships manifest the wrong record comes back, so unable to accept or reject her.
Did you ever find the marriage certificate for Alexander and Catherine?
Tom
Hi All,
After getting in touch with Ellis Island records, they have corrected the record, and it now shows her relative in Scotland as a sister in Yoker, but the destination is given as her Aunt, a Mrs Hampden, Carnegie Street off 57thSt (actually off 53rdSt), Pittsburg, Pa. So that is a Catherine McDonald, 26yo born in North Uist, looked at SP, and there are about 8 Catherine McDonald's born in North Uist in 2 years, 1884 and 1885. Got no results for Catherine Dearie McDonald either.
Tom
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Hi Tom
That was a quick response by Ellis Island records. Always good to see that they do respond efficiently and promptly to comments by users.
I do get the feeling that Catherine's maiden name may well have been Dearie/y. It is used consistently for Catherine on records we have so far, as Blackie was used as a middle name for Alexander (and we know the reasons why for that).
The 1915 census for Rochester (381 Sawyer Street?) also shows both daughters with the middle initial of 'D':
Alexander B Shields 30 partner/builder b. Scotland
Katherine Shields 29 b. Scotland
Margaret D Shields 5
Mary D Shields 2
Jason, with the mention earlier of the surname Reid....At the same address in 1915 is this family:
William H Reid 38 motor cycle salesman b. Scotland
Janet B Reid 35 b. Scotland
Helen N Reid 10 b. Scotland
William Reid 2
A William H Reid married a Janet Shields in 1902. This fits now with what you posted earlier (When James (son of Peter and Ellen) came over on the Furnessia in May 1910, he gave his "home" contact as Mother, Ellen SHIELDS of 84 John St Glasgow - and his destination contact in Rochester NY as Brother in Law, Wm. Reid. All ties in rather lovely.).
Monica
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The Reids may well have stayed on in the NY area. This looks a possible marriage for daughter Helen https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KZ9W-2QX
...Helping also to reconfirm the Shields surname for mother Janet :)...without looking at original sources etc....(and all the usual health warnings we have for this all ;D).
Monica
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Supporting material for the Dearie surname for Catherine, wife of Alexander. From the US 1925 census in Rochester we have:
Alexander Shields 54
Catherine Shields 37
Marguret Shields 15
Mary Shields 12
Arthur Shields 8
Catherine Shields 7
At the same address are.... ;D
Mary Deerie, 56 mother b. Scotland - house helper
Annie P Deerie, 29, daughter b. Scotland - Kodak worker
Not sure on addresss. Looks like 162 Calidonia ?....maybe you can figure out better Jason.
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Hi all,
I seem to have found a Mary and Catherine Deary/Deery in the 1891 and 1901 Scottish census, and also got an Annie P Deery in 1901, too.
1891 - 80 Cambridge St, Glasgow
Patrick Deary 30 Spirit Merchant
Mary Deary 29
Edward Deary 7
Catherine Deary 5
James Deary 4
Mary A Deary 2
Marget Deary 1
and in 1901 at 20 Maitland Street, Glasgow
Mary Deery 40
Edward Deery 17
Katie Deery 15
James Deery 13
Mary Deery 11
Daniel Deery 9
Anie P Deery 7
Henry Deery 4
It must be one of the most mis-spelt surnames ever. Makes it difficult to pin them down.
Tom
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In case you're not familiar with it, www.fultonhistory.com has lots of old upstate New York newspapers. There is a 1922 article that mentions Winifred Shields abandoning her husband and children other than one daughter. There are a number of mentions of real estate transactions in the 1914-1916 range involving Alexander B. Shields.
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Hi All,
Went back on Ellis Island records, I found Mary and Ann Deery on the "Columbus" arriving 13 Jun 1921. Their intended destination Mr Alexander Shields, 181 Troup St, Rochester, N.Y.
Tom
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Shelly, that is great. Lots for Jason to follow up on....Didn't think from what went on to happen with Winnifred that life would have been easy ::)
Tom, that must be the Dearies (however the variants come through!). That all makes sense and helps closing the questions on Alexander, James' brother.
Monica