RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Lorri Stute on Wednesday 12 March 14 16:44 GMT (UK)
-
I am looking for Decendants of these 2 brothers they both were born in Hackney London Fred 1862 and Albert 1859, in 1873 they migrated to Canada through Annie Macphersons home they have a brother Jesse born 1857 died in the US-1899 these 2 brothers were in New Zealand at the time of Jesse's death one of them married I have a photo of there children no names just that it was taken in Blenheim NZ, their parents are Jesse and Ann Martin, Ann died in 1867 in London, I have 1861 England census with all the siblings except Fred since he wasn't born yet.
-
Hi Lorri and welcome ro RC
Did the brothers have middle names?
there is this death that fit the age
1917/8296 Martin Albert 57Y
Cheers Janette
-
Hi Lorri,
Welcome to RC and the NZ Board.
That 1917 death is at Karori. Seems the deceased was a surgeon.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yez/
Putting it up for elimination purposes.
Cheers
KHP
-
Is there any more information you can give on these chaps?
Do you know their occupations?
It may be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack :o :o
Cheers Janette
-
I have no idea what there occupations were. Albert is a total mystery I cannot find any censuses on him except for 1861 in Hackney London, As for Fred this is really confusing, I have a 1885 census for Minnesota with him on it in the same household with his Brother Jesse, then there is nothing after that, I found a letter written after 1885 from Jesse's wife stating Jesse and Alf were at the skating rink but Jesse had just received a letter from Fred in NZ. talk about confusing been trying to figure out if Fred and Alfred are one the same but how can they with what is said in the letter. I have a photo taken in Blenheim NZ of about 4 children that I know are one of there's but no names no date. No middle names that I could find
-
Albert is a total mystery ...
I found a letter written after 1885 from Jesse's wife stating Jesse and Alf were .... trying to figure out if Fred and Alfred are one the same ....
Hi Lorri
Can you clarify please ? Albert or Alfred ???
You have "Albert" in the topic heading ... then you talk of "Alf" and Fred and "Alfred". ???
~ Lu
-
As for Fred this is really confusing, I have a 1885 census for Minnesota with him on it in the same household with his Brother Jesse,
Hi Lorri
* Are occupations for Fred and brother Jesse, listed on that 1885 Minnesota census ??
* Regardless of 1885, do you have an occupation for Jesse ? (which might give us an idea of the type of work his brothers were engaged in. e.g. Were they occupied in trades ...were they labourers ... etc. etc. )
~ Lu
-
There is a birth on FreeBDM's for
Births Jun 1862
MARTIN Frederick William Thomas Hackney 1b 385
and a NZ death
1940/20097 Martin Frederick William Thomas 78Y
Cheers Janette
-
Can see a Frederick MARTIN in 1896 residing in Blenheim ?
Following up on this.
~ Lu
-
He was in Timaru for the latter part of his life
Frederick William Thomas Martin 1928 Timaru Canterbury
Frederick William Thomas Martin 1935 Timaru Canterbury
Frederick William Thomas Martin 1938 Timaru Canterbury
Cheers Janette
-
A marriage
1895/1826 Georgina Jane Holland Gibson to Frederick William Thomas Martin
Cheers Janette
-
I can see 2 children to this couple
1896/3235 Martin Cyril Jesse Gibson to Georgina Jesse Holland and Frederick William Thomas
1898/19272 Martin Vera Goullee to Georgiana Jane Holland and Frederick William Thomas
Cheers Janette
-
A marriage
1895/1826 Georgina Jane Holland Gibson to Frederick William Thomas Martin
Cheers Janette
Georgina is at the same cemetery as mentioned in my Reply #2 Died 1946 aged 73.
Cheers
KHP
-
a death for Frederick's wife
1946/31495 Martin Georgina Jane Holland 73Y
Cheers Janette
-
1896 - Marlborough - Wairau electoral roll
MARTIN - Georgiana Jane Holland - Warwick Street - domestic duties
MARTIN - Frederick* - Saddler - Blenheim ???
This was the Frederick I'd found earlier in Blenheim.
~ Lu
-
Various listings > Georgiana / Georgina J H MARTIN on electoral rolls.
1911 - Wairau
GHT MARTIN and Frederick William (carrier) residing at Dillon's Point Road.
-
Cyril Jesse Gibson MARTIN - died 29 April 1918 - (KIA) Somme, France. :(
S/o Frederick and Georgina MARTIN of Islington, Blenheim
NoK : Mrs G. Martin (Mother) Dillon Point Road, Blenheim.
-
:) you are all amazing I have printed it all so I can research and see if it is my Fred,
-
Lorri ... I see the 1861 UK census (South Hackney) has the child named as "Albert".
~ Lu
-
Yes Albert is totally different from Fred I was thinking maybe Fred's name might have been Alfred
-
:) you are all amazing I have printed it all so I can research and see if it is my Fred,
I told you :)
Welcome to Rootschat Lorri. Glad to see you are getting some great help with your Martin family
Karen
-
Cyril Jesse Gibson MARTIN - died 29 April 1918 - (KIA) Somme, France. :(
S/o Frederick and Georgina MARTIN of Islington, Blenheim
NoK : Mrs G. Martin (Mother) Dillon Point Road, Blenheim.
A photo of his headstone
http://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=2800218
Cheers Janette
-
Hi Lorri
No doubt that this Frederick is your man. :)
Marriage Notice
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Marlborough Express" - 19 April 1895 - Marriage
MARTIN -HOLLAND GIBSON
... third s/o late Jesse MARTIN of London.
~ Lu
Edited to amend surname.
-
Lucy how do I pull up that paper?
-
This looks like the parents marriage
Marriages Jun 1855
GOULLEE Ann Shoreditch 1c 362
MARTIN Jesse Shoreditch 1c 362
The district Shoreditch spans the boundaries of the counties of London and Middlesex
One if Fred's children has the Goullee name
Cheers Janette
-
Yes those are the Parents
-
Here is the search page for PapersPast
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=q&q=&e=-------10--1----0--
Cheers Janette
-
I tried searching the date and paper but its not showing me the info on the wedding
This all so amazing I have been searching for ever on Fred and you all got this info so fast I am so grateful and I cannot say Thank you enough now maybe I can find the rest of them in NZ and put names to the photos that I have.
-
Here is a link to the marriage notice
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0yf4/
It is Martin -Gibson not Holland
Cheers Janette
-
Hi Lorri ... this too at PapersPast. :)
"Otago Daily Times" (Dunedin) - 20 March 1919 - page 1 / column 5
MARTIN - Will Frederick and ALbert MARTIN (sons of Jesse MARTIN) who left England about 28 years ago communicate with Thomas MARTIN, No. 1 Lampeter Street, Islington, N1, London, NE
~ Lu
-
Whooops ... sorry my mistake Lorri, yes marriage notice was for MARTIN - GIBSON (and not Holland).
~ Lu
-
Lorri ... any idea who Thomas MARTIN in Islington, London, is ?
~ Lu
-
Yes I think he is there half Brother Jesse remarried in 1876 to a Mary Harrington Metson and they had a Thomas and Richard
-
NZ Death
1990 - MARTIN - Vera Goullee - date of birth - 12 January 1898
Would seem that daughter Vera did not marry and so there is probably no issue from her.
-
She is also at Karori, link given in Reply # 2
Cheers
KHP
-
According to a tree on Ancestry, Frederick William Thomas Martin died before 18 May 1946.
Cheers
KHP
-
Another son : [Source: NZ BDM online ]
1907 / 11502
MARTIN - Lindsay* Chessington
Parents: Georgina Jane Holland and Frederick William Thomas
~ Lu
[Name in NZ records, often spelt as "Lindsey" . ]
-
BURIAL at Karori Cemetery, Wellington :
MARTIN - Lindsey Chessington
78 years
Occupation : Retired
Burial : 20 March 1985
-
Lindsey Chessington MARTIN ... had earlier found him living in Wellington with his mother and sister. His occupation on most electoral rolls is given as, painter.
Just rechecking his Karori burial record ... he is buried with sister Vera.
Have a feeling he too did not marry (but will check further).
~ Lu
-
Are there passenger lists for arrivals into New Zealand?
Karen
-
Hi Lucy2 is there anyway I can get copies of what you have found I am making a Family History book and I would like to add all this info to it. Thank you Lorri
-
Hi Lorri ... thanks for your messages (and those via PM). Yes, I will have a look and see what copies can be made available. Bear with me a little while. ;)
~ Lu
-
Thank you :)
-
According to a tree on Ancestry, Frederick William Thomas Martin died before 18 May 1946.
Cheers
KHP
Blowed if I can find that tree, KHP. ??? (And I've polished up me specs. ) :D
Is it annexed to another Ancestry tree ??
~ Lu
-
is it the hobbs/wells tree? I have a tree also Martin/Bradbury take a look i have quite abit of info
-
Cheers Lorri ... will have a look at that. ;)
-
Blowed if I can find that tree, KHP. ??? (And I've polished up me specs. ) :D
~ Lu
It is there Lu :D It isn't your glasses, but the new changes to Ancestry. ;D You need to have the forenames and surname exact.
Cheers
KHP
-
is it the hobbs/wells tree?
Yes :D
Cheers
KHP
-
Thanks KHP. :)
Lorri ... found your MARTIN / BRADBURY tree but it doesn't seem to take me beyond one "Sylvia Bradbury" ??
I'll have a another go at seeking these out. :D
~ Lu
-
wont it let you search the Martins in the tree
-
Ah ... now found the Frederick William Thomas MARTIN (HOBBS/WELLS) tree.
[Thanks again for the "sideline" coaching, KHP. ] :)
Tree is something of a disappointment though, isn't it ? It only confirms that Frederick and Georgiana had three children (not named). And I do fear that with the demise of son Cyril, and what appears to have been "no marriages" for the children Vera and Lindsey, we are looking at the "ending" of this family. :(
~ Lu
-
there are 4 children in the photo 2 girls 2 boys think we are missing a child the youngest is a girl
I will post the photo to Frederick posted
-
Delighted then to hear that there might be another child (youngest daughter). :)
Lorri ... meant to say that I'm happy to look in our local repositories for death / funeral, notices for Georgiana / Vera and Lindsay, who are buried in Wellington. Might be a few days hence, but can do those look-ups for you. It may (hopefully) shed light on any remaining family members.
~ Lu
-
Thank you Lu that would be great.
-
Hi Lorri ... don't suppose you know the name of this youngest daughter ???
~ Lu
-
So sorry no there are no names on the photo you have given me the names of the children so far i did nt even have that Well I am off for now message me whatever you need :)
-
That's ok. Fingers crossed that the death / funeral notices offer up some information. ;D
-
Also found this archived message >
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/MARTIN-UK/2009-06/1245618435
-
This is the original "MARTIN" tree that was quoted on Ancestry. Please note that it is only my direct line ancestors and I have other branches on my tree on my computer so I will look at some of your MARTIN ancestors Although my mother obviously knew the Blenheim MARTIN family, I never checked back on them when she was alive (head hung)
Jim Payne
-
Hi Jim,
Glad you found your way here,
Cheers Janette
-
I am in so much awe of all of you , this is just amazing I have been beating my head against a wall trying to find info on Fred and Albert and you all in just a few hours find all this info, Like i said I cannot thank you enough for what you have done and are still doing, I sent Jim a email and will send the photos over to him to see if he identify them, will be awesome if he can. thank you all so much again :D
-
Well done Ladies as usual! I'm so happy for you Lorri!
Karen
-
Janette
I have been reading all the entries again as I intend to tidy up my tree before I send an expanded branch to Lorri
I had Frederick William Thomas' death as before 18 May 1964 as Georgiana's probate gave her as a widow while her will of 19 October 1921 gave her as married woman (He was not mentioned at all in her will so now I suspect that they must have separated about that time)
Looking at your reference for his death as 1940/20097, I take it that he died in NZ but I cannot find his burial at the Timaru Cemetery or my NZ Burial Locator
Jim
-
Hi Jim
That is the entry on NZ BDM's
1940/20097 Martin Frederick William Thomas 78Y exact date is 17/9/1940
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Ddeaths
Cheers Janette
-
Janette
Thanks very much for the date. I checked through their database and I am certain that this is it
Record Details
Reference 11856
Surname Martin
Forenames Fred W J
Occupation
Address
Age at Death Unknown
Date of Death Wednesday, 18 September 1940
Date of Interment Wednesday, 18 September 1940
Cemetery Timaru Cemetery
Section Free Ground
Block
Plot
Beam
New Row 0
New Plot 62
Clergy Name
Funeral Director
-
Hi Lorri
I have some information for you for Frederick's family ... and I'll post this shortly.
But just while you're currently online, could you tell us please, from the photo you have, does it include adults or just the children (of Frederick) ??
[Just got my son trying to fix my jammed printer at present ::) and have had to clear my desktop so when that's done, will find my MARTIN notes. ]
~ Lu
-
Hi Lucy. The pictures is just of children, thank you again Lorri maybe i can figure out a way to post it
-
Hi Lorri
Herewith, the death notice for Georgiana (Georgina).
"Evening Post" (Wellington, NZ) - 18 May 1946
MARTIN - on 18 May 1946 at her home, 48 Darlington Road, Miramar, Georgina, dearly-loved mother of Vera and Lindsey and the late Cyril Martin (killed in France 1918). So loved, so mourned. Private Interment.
---------------------------------
So, just the three children (and no mention of Frederick.)
In respect of Lindsey and Vera, I searched both Wellington newspapers of the time ("Evening Post" and "Dominion") for several days either side of their deaths, and sadly found no notices for them.
[I get the feeling that they were probably very private people ? ]
~ Lu
-
Lorri ... as mentioned earlier, there were no apparent (NZ) marriages for either Vera or Lindsey.
It would seem that they lived with Georgiana until her death, and then later, also shared a residence.
By 1963, Vera and Lindsey were residing at # 117 Cashmere Avenue (in the "rather-well-to-do" Wellington suburb of Khandallah). Lindsey is listed at this time as an interior decorator and (in the only "occupational" listing I found for her) Vera is shown as a "clerk-typist". They remained at that address until 1981 at least.
~ Lu
-
They must have been, I wonder who the fourth child is then, I have another NZ photo of children it is 2 Girls,I think I saw another post where they think Fred and Georgina split up
-
you know Lucy you think it might be the end of that line?
-
HELP please : :)
Could someone please check NZSG disk just to make sure there is nothing for >
* Lindsey (or Lindsay) Chessington MARTIN - died Wellington - March 1985
* Vera Goullee MARTIN - died Wellington - May 1990
Thanks.
-
Hi Lorri
Yes, I sort of got the feeling earlier on in this thread, that Georgiana (Georgina) and Frederick probably had no grandchildren, and I think now that that has been confirmed in Georgina's death notice. Rather sad. :( [I do feel sure that they would have been mentioned in the notice had there been any. Also, as deceased son Cyril had been named, I think had there been another child of the couple, then that too would probably have been noted ? ]
As to the photo (photos) you have, (and a real shame that they're not labelled in anyway :( ), it's possible that the fourth child (or the other girl) is a neighbour or playmate of the MARTIN siblings ??
Have more to add here for Frederick ... see following posts. ;)
~ Lu
-
Hi again Lorri
Yes, it would appear that Georgiana and Frederick parted company, but exact date is a little difficult to determine. My guess is around 1914 ... he's still on the electoral roll at Blenheim then, and although I've checked to see if his name was removed from that roll (before the election date), unfortunately the scanned copy of the roll is v. poor quality and I can't decipher the numbers of persons removed. :( [Could not find him on a 1919 roll ].
He next appears in 1922 at Timaru > as Frederick William MARTIN, labourer ... and in 1925 is listed (at Timaru) as Frederick William Thomas MARTIN, labourer.
[Georgiana and daughter Vera are still listed as living in Blenheim in 1922 and 1925. ]
Continuing next >
-
Why I thought about 1914 was a possibility for Georgiana and Frederick parting company, was due to the following notice.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Marlborough Express" - 27 June 1914
[To help with finding this - use the "more search options" link at PapersPast, put in date of newspaper and use "Martin" as search term. 2 results returned ]
... The management of the business of F.W. MARTIN and CO., general carriers, has been taken over by Mr. E. M. GIBSON ...
Then view the second result > same newspaper and date (page 5 / column 6) to bring up the notice of change of management which contains statements from both Frederick MARTIN and E.M. GIBSON.
~ Lu
-
Cyril MARTIN's death - 1918 :
"Marlborough Express" - 21 May 1918 - Personal Notes
... Advice was received yesterday by his mother, that Pvt. Cyril MARTIN, the eldest s/o Mr. Fred MARTIN ...
(Cyril) ... was employed by firm MARTIN and CO., carriers.
---------------------
Well, my guess at 1914 might be astray for Georgiana and Frederick's separation ??? But above notes his mother received the advice [as she would as she was listed on his army attestation form as next-of-kin] ... but it doesn't state whether Fred. MARTIN was still residing in Blenheim.
[I'm guessing Cyril was probably employed by his uncle E.M. (Eadly) GIBSON ?? ]
-
Are there passenger lists for arrivals into New Zealand?
Karen
Sorry Karen ... missed answering your question (way back in thread). ;D
In short, the bulk of New Zealand Immigration records (passenger lists) are for persons arriving (under sponsorship of NZ provincial governments) from the UK and Ireland. Very few lists to be had for those arriving direct from other places (USA / Canada incl. ). :( Sometimes we get lucky if emigrants went via Australia before coming on to NZ ... and occasionally, if precise dates are known, we can often find people in the shipping lists published in local newspapers. [Haven't unfortunately spotted anything for these MARTIN brothers. ]
~ Lu
-
Adding ... we know from the newspaper notice (27 June 1914) > change of management of F.W. MARTIN and Co., > that Frederick MARTIN had been in business in Blenheim for 26 years (from c. 1888).
[Obviously the information published in the newspaper article 1920 (asking Fred and Albert to contact Thomas MARTIN in London) was a little curious in suggesting the boys left England about 28 years ago (c. 1892) ??? ]
~ Lu
-
Yes I would say a bit curious will have to look into that, Thank you again Lu for all your help, I will not be able to post pictures they only allow 500 kb and these are a lot larger than that, I have no Idea how to shrink them , the only thing I can do is add them to my ancestory tree under Fred and see if anyone recognizes them. I am in contact with Thomas brother's line maybe they can shed some light on some of the brothers info that we have found. also I think Albert might have died here in the US am researching that,
-
Hi Lorri
There are a number of interesting snippets re: Frederick MARTIN which you might like to browse in the newspapers when you have time ?
ALL the following appear in the "Marlborough Express" :
[Found using search terms "F. W. MARTIN" / "F. MARTIN" / "Fred. MARTIN" ]
- 14 October 1903 - page 3
... Mr F. MARTIN, carrier, with Mrs MARTIN, has been on a holiday trip to Sydney ...
- 5 November 1908 --- 4 February 1910 (page 4) -- (and other years also)
[Advertisements for the business of F.W. MARTIN and CO. Carriers at Blenheim. ]
- 14 August 1900 - page 4 - Assault Case
[re: GOODMAN v. Frederick MARTIN ... and counter claim by same parties. ]
- 7 February 1919 - page 1 / column 4
[For Sale: ... Cooking apples, apply Mrs F. MARTIN, Islington. :D ]
- 5 September 1888 - page 2
[Res. Magistrate's Court : Insulting language - G. ROBINSON v. F. MARTIN ]
- 20 November 1911 - Local and General News
[A runaway ... a pair of horses belonging to Mr Fred. MARTIN ... ]
- 16 December 1909 - page 7
[Marlborough Acclimatisation Society - Fishing Licence Holders : Fred. MARTIN / C. MARTIN ]
~ Lu
-
Hi Lorri
Good to hear you have contact with the line of Thomas MARTIN. :)
And I was about to address the issue of Albert MARTIN being in New Zealand.
-
Hi Lucy thanks again I will being checking those out as soon as I get done working. and Albert has been in NZ but I dont know for how long I think he might have gone with his middle name I am assuming it was Alfred just by what I have found here, havent found a whole lot just a census from 1885.
-
Albert MARTIN
Very possibly he was in New Zealand (but probably only for a short time ? )
I've looked in all sorts of places for him (eliminating others of the same name along the way).
He doesn't seem to have gone to Australia either. So I think your follow up of US records is probably the way to go. ;)
Only one other Albert MARTIN who died in NZ, had a birth year of c. 1859-60 ( we've of course already ruled out the Albert who was a surgeon and died in 1917).
[An Albert MARTIN - 67 years [bc 1860] died at Dunedin, NZ, in 1927 and is buried with his wife Laura. Fortunately there was a marriage notice for the couple in 1893, which revealed he was the son of a Robert MARTIN, of Kent, England. So NOT your man. :D]
~ Lu
-
yes I think you are correct also will continue my search in the US for my Albert and thank you so much again Lu for all that you have done. :)
-
Hi Lorri
That's okay ... happy to have helped. ;)
Just meant to ask, did you ever find the MARTIN boys on the 1871 UK census ???
I can see (what I think is) Jesse, the father in 1871 (widower), a lodger living in the household of a Mary HOLLAND ?
* Were the sons in a school or some kind of institution before they went off to Canada ??
~ Lu
-
I have to go for a bit I will tell you what I have found on them when I get back I think you will be quite amazed
-
Great .... look forward to hearing further. ;)
I'm just logging off now too.
~ Lu
-
Just another record you might want to view (perhaps there's correspondence on this file ? ) is the WW1 Army file for Cyril.
The file has been digitised and is available for viewing on the Archives New Zealand website "Archway".
http://archway.archives.govt.nz
In search box type in "Cyril Jesse Gibson MARTIN".
~ Lu
-
HELP please : :)
Could someone please check NZSG disk just to make sure there is nothing for >
* Lindsey (or Lindsay) Chessington MARTIN - died Wellington - March 1985
Thanks.
Only the cemetery inscription:
ILMO Georgiana J. H. MARTIN dearly loved mother of Cyril, Vera and Lindsey, peacefully sleeping 18 May 1946.
Cheers
KHP
-
Lu, I think I already told you about the way they went to Canada thru the British home children homes. I did find a 1871 census that there sister Mary Ann she was in the home of her grandmother, but I never did find a 1871 census with the brothers so maybe they were on the streets or with another relative, but I dont think so, if they were why would they have gone to the Macpherson home. will do some more research or maybe Thomas's line might know something, when I find out will let you know. Thank you again for all your help. Lorri ;D
-
Many thanks, KHP. :)