RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cavan => Topic started by: andarah on Monday 03 March 14 14:19 GMT (UK)
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I'd like your opinion and to know what you would do.
I am helping someone do some research, and they just gave me copies of all the documents they have filed away. In the file is
1914 WWI registration (with `discharged' written across them, so the copy isn't from the original day of registration)
an 1851 census from Cavan
marriage from the 1923 which was extracted in 1956.
1885 birth from Cavan, extracted in 1925
1923 marriage, from 1923
1902 birth, from 1902
1939 death, from 1939
1927 birth, from 1927
This is obviously a family that kept their records! Would you trust the 1851 census? The census is for the mother who is mentioned on the 1885 birth, and in the 1851 census, she is 3 years old (not an uncommon name). I don't have any other documentation on her, and can't find her in the 1901 or 1911 census. I don't know her age, the age of her husband or her parents' names. So, it's near impossible for me to verify the information on the 1851 census.
The census paper is very old, but would people have been given copies of the census in 1851? Would a family seriously have kept it through everything they went through in life and carried it to Glasgow when they later moved? Why would they have kept the census, but not their birth, marriage and death records? The next date that I have for a record this family kept is 1902 (1885 birth was extracted in 1925).
If this was you, how would you proceed?
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If someone kept the actual census paper it wouldn't have been recorded!
Also the actual documents for 1851 census for Ireland were destroyed so only some records exist
Was she just from Cavan or "in Cavan" in 1851?
She obviously was born c1848 if then aged 3
So you are looking for a lady approx 53 in 1901 who could be married, and remarried even or perhaps died by that time and hence the reason she was not found.
Presume other dates do not all refer to her! ;)
Do you wish to share her name and supposed location in 1901/1911 for us to search for her?
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The 1851 census was destroyed in the 1922 fire in Dublin. However it was accessible in certain circumstances prior to that. For example, the state pension was introduced in Ireland in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. They needed proof of age but of course birth certs had only been introduced in 1864 so unless born outside Ireland, they wouldn’t have one. There were various solutions to overcome this eg baptism certs and military discharge docs which normally record the persons age. Another, prior to 1922, was to go to the 1851 census and get a duplicate copy of the entry recording the applicant and family that year. It’s possible therefore that the census document you refer to is a copy obtained for pension application purposes, presumably between 1909 and 1921.
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Interesting! Thank you!
The Catherine in this census would have been 70 in 1918, which is before the documents were destroyed. It's definitely a copy, and not an original, because it says `Public Record Office of Ireland' at the top.
What I also find interesting is that the 1885 birth was extracted in 1925, and the 1914 WWI record is a copy from after 1914. The 1885 birth is for the same person who registered for WWI in 1914. Maybe that man was trying to get a war pension and needed to prove his birth, war record and the age of his parents??? All 3 documents are from approximately the same time period, and collecting documents at that time would not have been a typical action for most people, unless there was a reason.
My problem is that I have nothing concrete to confirm this census is actually the census of this man's mother. However, if he extracted it, or his mother did, then the names of the parents must be accurate. His mother was still alive in 1923 when he married, so was definitely alive when the census was copied for the family, and she would know her parents' names and where they lived.
Thank you for weighing in and for the information! I think I can trust this census is them.
What I definitely know, is that I wish I had an 1851 census for my ancestors!!!! :)
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Myluck!, I would love some help finding them. I can't find them anywhere.
This is the family I am searching for:
John Fee…died before 1923, but I don't know how long before 1923
Catherine Fee (nee Murray), 1848, born Cavan
Peter Fee, 1869, born Swanlinbar, Cavan
Mary Ann, 1871, born Swanlinbar, Cavan
Patrick, 1874, born Swanlinbar, Cavan….this man went to the US in 1897
John, 1876, born Swanlinbar, Cavan
Charles, 1885, born Swanlinbar, Cavan….this man went to Glasgow at the age of 12, in 1897; he registered in the military in 1914 in Scotland and he married in 1923 in Glasgow
There are more children in this family, that I can't find, and I know that 4 brothers went to the US, and 2 went to Glasgow. Supposedly, the parents were left behind in Ireland. I can't find any of them, except for Patrick, in any census anywhere.
Thank you for the offer to look!
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I just found Catherine's death registration on Scotland's People. It says she was 79 when she died in 1932, which is pretty close to a date of birth in 1848 (dates aren't always exact), and the parents match the parents on the census.
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However, if he extracted it, or his mother did, then the names of the parents must be accurate. His mother was still alive in 1923 when he married, so was definitely alive when the census was copied for the family, and she would know her parents' names and where they lived.
That the census record is stamped Public Record Office strongly suggests it was needed for age verification purposes. And you seem fairly safe in assuming it's the right family. Why would he ask for someone else's family? Don't worry too much about age discrepancies. Few people bothered too much about accuracy in those days.
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Have you checked out the Irish Prison register on Family Search there are a few Fee's from Swanlinbar on there.
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Dont know if these are of use may be related some how
On the calendar of wills
James Fee shop keeper died 18 Oct 1881 aged about 60 from Swanlinbar to Anne the widow Swanlinbar.
Anne Fee a widow died 7th May 1898 Swanlinbar to Rose Anne the daughter.
birth Rose Anne Fee 1 Aug 1874 Swanlinbar dtr of James Fee and Anne Leonard.
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That James may be connected and so might the Stephen from the prison records, but I can't connect them right now. Thank you for finding them! I'll definitely write them down for future reference.
I am amazed that my cousin's family has this census, which is so rare to have, and then on the other hand, I can't find any of them in another census! How many family trees have the 1851 Irish as their only census?
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Myluck!, I would love some help finding them. I can't find them anywhere.
This is the family I am searching for:
John Fee…died before 1923, but I don't know how long before 1923
Is this Catherine's husband or son?
What would the approximate age be?
Couple of suggestions for John if not already looked at (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajohn%7E%20%2Bsurname%3Afee%7E%20%2Brecord_country%3AIreland%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1835-1845%7E&death_place0=8)
There is a John born 1876 with possible death in 1878 aged 2 (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajohn~%20%2Bsurname%3Afee~%20%2Brecord_country%3AIreland%20%2Bbirth_place%3Abawnboy~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1876-1877~)
Catherine Fee (nee Murray), 1848, born Cavan – I cannot locate a marriage
Peter Fee, 1869, born Swanlinbar, Cavan Bap 01.Aug.1869 Civil Birth Record (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYTN-VM6)
Mary Ann, 1871, born Swanlinbar, Cavan Bap 15.Sep.1871 Civil Birth Record (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYB8-63D)
Patrick, 1874, born Swanlinbar, Cavan….this man went to the US in 1897 Bap 11.Mar.1874 Civil Birth Record (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBMV-Q47)
John, 1876, born Swanlinbar, Cavan Bap 29.Nov.1876 Civil Birth Record (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBS7-DNY)
Charles, 1885, born Swanlinbar, Cavan…. Civil Birth Record (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBC3-X6B)
This man went to Glasgow at the age of 12, in 1897; he registered in the military in 1914 in Scotland and he married in 1923 in Glasgow
There are more children in this family, that I can't find, and I know that 4 brothers went to the US, and 2 went to Glasgow. Supposedly, the parents were left behind in Ireland. I can't find any of them, except for Patrick, in any census anywhere.
As all of the family you mentioned are registered in the Civil Register in BAWNBOY, I would suggest that you ask the GRO in Roscommon for a search between the years 1865 and 1890 for possible siblings, giving as much detail as you have on their address and parents; especially as you seem to have move information that others existed.
I think that this is a possibility for one of them:
Joseph LEE 23.Sep 1879 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGV7-T2Y)
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Thank you! The John I mentioned at the top is the husband of Catherine. I don't have any information on him, other than his name on the birth registrations of the children. I would assume he was born between 1830 and 1850, and he was married (probably) to Catherine, who was born in 1848. I know he died before 1923 because that's when Charles married, and it's listed on his marriage registration.
I think Joseph may be another child of this couple. I found a potential 1901 census in Glasgow, listing:
Joseph Fee, aged 20, born Ireland, telephone labourer
Catherine Fee, aged 50, born Ireland (mother)
Catherine Fee, aged 17, born Ireland, machinist (sister)
Charles Fee, aged 15, born Ireland, box maker apprentice (brother)
Peter Fee, aged 18, born Ireland, telephone labourer (cousin)
The only thing holding me back is that my cousin knows that Charles went to Glasgow when he was 12, to work be a labourer digging roads (that's what my cousin has been told about her ancestor), and the Charles in this census, at 15, is a box maker (apprentice). When he married in 1923, he was a grocer. I don't know what a box maker is, but woodwork makes sense to me. Nobody in the above family was involved with road construction or groceries, unless maybe the telephone labourers were laying telephones along the roads???
I can't find any of these individuals in 1911, so I'm having trouble verifying them.
Thank you again! My cousin is very grateful!
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No problem - sorry not to be much more
If only it were easy!
I would consider the search at the GRO which could yield more
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Thank you for the suggestion to look to GRO in Roscommon for more births/possibly the marriage! I'll pass that along to my cousin.
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I would love for it to be easy!
I was at PRONI last summer and I asked why they don't have more records online (to make it easier). Scotland's People is amazing! I would love to have something like that for Ireland. The employee said they'd never fight for that because it would mean they'd have fewer jobs. I disagree because if records were easier to find, they'd have more people researching. Scotland's People in Glasgow was full to capacity when I was there, and there were only 5-6 people at PRONI when I visited. I would think frustrated researchers would mean fewer researchers. PRONI has so many records available - in person.
Sorry - that's my vent for the day.
I should add that I live in Canada, and that was the only time I've been at either record office (and probably my last :( )
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I would love for it to be easy!
I was at PRONI last summer and I asked why they don't have more records online (to make it easier). Scotland's People is amazing! I would love to have something like that for Ireland. The employee said they'd never fight for that because it would mean they'd have fewer jobs. I disagree because if records were easier to find, they'd have more people researching. Scotland's People in Glasgow was full to capacity when I was there, and there were only 5-6 people at PRONI when I visited. I would think frustrated researchers would mean fewer researchers. PRONI has so many records available - in person.
I heard the current Director of PRONI touch on this recently. She explained that their priority is to conserve existing material and to acquire new records. They don’t have the resources to put all their records on-line (there’s over 3 million holdings and so it would be a mammoth task anyway). PRONI have a much wider range of material than you get on Scotlandspeople so they are not totally analogous. She did say that some records of major interest will go on-line, at the rate of one project a year. This year’s is a batch of about 20 more years probate files (c 1944 to 1965).
And the NI statutory births, death and marriages will be going on-line (on the GRONI site) very shortly
similar to the Scotlandspeople set-up. So that should help a bit.