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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: forestfloor on Wednesday 26 February 14 13:51 GMT (UK)
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Hello,I am trying to find any information about my G Grandfather,Frederic Scofield Smith who was born in Todmorden in about 1849?.I only know he moved to Matlock in Derbyshire when he married my G Grandmother Kate Burcumshaw in about1880s. I have not been able to find neither his birth certificate or their marriage certificate. Thankyou.
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Hi,
Welcome to Rootschat. Could Fred have been a nickname? There are a few family trees online that have him dying on 13th October, 1909. Would this be correct? The only death I could find was for an Edward Schofield Smith registered Bakewell Dec. Qtr. 1909 and a burial of Edward Schofield Smith in Darley on 16th October, 1909. This may explain why we can`t find on any early census.
I will go and see if I can find an Edward.
Mo
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And welcome from me, too.
1901 - RG13/3266 folio 47 page 5
Rycroft, Darley, Derbyshire
Fred Smith 52
Kate 36
Ernest 18
William 11
Percy 6
Bertha 4
Lily 3 plus William Bircumshaw 66 = Lodger
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A bit iffy, but:
Kate Bircumshaw and Thomas Frederic Shipman appear on the same page - Nottingham Registration District 7b page 659 - December quarter 1882 page number for Kate has been mistranscribed, so ignore that.
In the same quarter, and District, on page 559 Kate Bircumshaw appears with Harriett Beedham/Bedlham, Frank Hardy and William Rasin.
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1881 - Heanor, Derbyshire RG11/3324 folio 125 page 9
William Bircumshaw - 45 widower
Joseph 22
Kate 15
William 14
Albert 11
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1871 - RG10/3480 folio 38, page 28 - Longley Mill Road, Heanor
William Bircumshaw - 35
Ann - 35
Joseph 12
Kate 5
William 3
Albert 1
June quarter 1865 - Basford Registration District, 7b page 115 - birth of Kate Bircumshaw
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There was a Frederick Smith baptised at St Paul's Church, Cross Stone Todmorden on 29th September 1851, child of a Jonas Smith ( a weaver) and his wife Lydia -oddly enough they seem to have lived in Accrington, a fair walk away as the valleys wind. Could that be anything to do with your Frederick?
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There's also a census entry for 1851 in Todmorden for a Frederick Scholfield, born in 1851, son of an ironmoulder, Richard, and his wife Elizabeth Scholfield, living in the Salford area of the town, where there was at least one forge. that may be a possibility for you?
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I wonder if this marriage is significant:
28/1/1821 Todmorden
John Smith = Sarah Scholfield.
Possibly parents of Jonas or Richard.
jim
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for info. here he is on the 1891 census
RG12; Piece: 2775; Folio: 105; Page: 5
Fred Schofield SMITH 35 Todmorden York occ Stone Mason
Kate 25 Langly Mill Derby
Ernest B 8 Radford Nottingham
Edward A 4 Yorkshire
William H 1 Ripon Yorkshire
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Could Fred have been a nickname?
There are a few family trees online that have him dying on 13th October, 1909. Would this be correct?
The only death I could find was for an
Edward Schofield Smith registered Bakewell Dec. Qtr. 1909 and a burial of
Edward Schofield Smith in Darley on 16th October, 1909.
This may explain why we can`t find on any early census.
I wonder if this is the same Edward Schofield Smith
Bapts 19th May 1896 St Marks Cromford Derbyshire born 1892
Edith Ann parents Edward Schofield Smith & Kate
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JS7Z-GHJ
Cromford is in the registration district of Bakewell
Edith Ann Smith Mar 1892 Bakewell vol 7b page 726
Edith Ann Smith died age 4
Jun 1896 Bakewell Derbyshire Volume: 7b Page: 407
Edith Ann Smith Burial date 30 Jun 1896 Burial Place: Darley, Derbyshire
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Nice find Ladyhawk :)
Mo
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Could he have changed his earlier occupation to become a stone mason? The nearest I seem to be able to find appears in Todmorden area in his younger days as a machine making apprentice, or similar?
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... If this is he, in 1881 he's living in Todmorden, as a machine maker apprentice, as I said, with various siblings and parents William and Ann Smith, in Myrtle Street. He's at the same address in 1871 and 1861 aged in this last 2 months old. No trace of a "Scholfield" in his name there, through, really. Any use?
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Thankyou,to all that replied to my quest regarding my Gt Grandfather,Frederich Scholfield Smith of Todmorden.The information has been helpful and given me lots to follow up.Forestfloor
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Do you need any further information?
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My great grandfather was also Fred S Smith my grandfather being William.I believe he may have taken the maiden name of his mother Sarah Smith. There is no marriage cert for him and Kate who was married to a Frank Hardy . I have their marriage cert . He also styled himself Edward which he is registered as in 1909 .Please Get in touch
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Thankyou CatherinetheGreat.It was a shock to read your message,but it looks like you have solved a mystery for me.Please could you send me any information especially about your family and how we are related. The only info i have on Fred is only from his life in Matlock and his children with Kate which includes my Grandfather Percy Scofield Smith. regards ForestFloor.
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I think CatherinetheGreat will have to do a couple more posts in order to pm you.
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Hi Forest Floor
Good to make contact with a second cousin once removed.
Further to my post I need to say that I have based my assumptions on the following:
Kate had a child Ernest in 1883 . She was young so I presume got married when pregnant to Frank Hardy who lived near her in Langley Mill, he was a coal miner like her father William.
How she got together with Fred I do not know but it obvious from census returns that he moved about being a stone mason(as was my grandfather William) settling eventually in Darley Dale . The problem is compounded by his change of name , being registered as Edward at death and in a census record. I have traced who I think were his parents to the 1861 census. They could have been Amos Scholfield and Sarah nee Smith. They moved from Todmorden to London see census records. Why I think they are his parents is because Amos was a builder and Fred is more likely to have folowed this kind of trade than being a mill worker as most others were in the Rochdale area at the time. Why Fred was known as Smith is a mystery but I do know that on my grandfather's death my grandmother got cross with my mother for inscribing Schofield( William's second name) on his gravestone , why that was she never knew! No one asked the right questions in those days!
My grandparents lived in Drabbles Road Matlock from 1926. As a child I knew my great aunts Lily and Bertha but there was never any mention of anyone else.
Any info you have would be great.
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Further to my post I need to say that I have based my assumptions on the following:
Kate had a child Ernest in 1883 .
She was young so I presume got married when pregnant to Frank Hardy who lived near her in Langley Mill, he was a coal miner like her father William.
How she got together with Fred I do not know but it obvious from census returns that he moved about being a stone mason(as was my grandfather William) settling eventually in Darley Dale .
The problem is compounded by his change of name , being registered as Edward at death and in a census record. I have traced who I think were his parents to the 1861 census. They could have been Amos Scholfield and Sarah nee Smith. They moved from Todmorden to London see census records.
Why I think they are his parents is because Amos was a builder and Fred is more likely to have folowed this kind of trade
For info. for anyone looking
here are Fred & Kate on 1901/91 c
1901 RG13; Piece: 3266; Folio: 47; Page: 5
Fred SMITH 52 Todmorden stone mason
Kate 36 Lanley Mills Notts
Ernest 18 Radford Notts stonemason
William 11 Yorks
Percy 6 Darley Dale
Bertha 4
Lily 3
William BIRCUMSHAW lodger 66 Saleston Notts
1891 RG12; Piece: 2775; Folio: 105; Page: 5
Fred Schofield Smith 35 Todmorden stone mason
Kate 26
Ernest B 8
Edward A 4
William H 1
Kate widowed by 1911, dau Ellen Smith born 1907 Darley
and here is Amos & Sarah marriage & census detail
27 Sep 1847 St John the Baptist, Halifax Yorkshire, England
Amos SCHOLFIELD 22 no father named
Sarah SMITH 19 father John occ painter
Both single both res. Langfield
Witnesses John Holden (x) & John Thomas
1851 HO107; Piece: 2289; Folio: 229; Page: 29
Amos SCHOLFIELD 25 Walsden Lancashire Joiner & Builder
Sarah 22 Langfield Yorkshire
Sidney 2
Sarah Ann 5 mths
1861 RG 9; Piece: 3234; Folio: 92; Page: 7
Amos Scholfield 35 Walsden Lancashire Joiner & Builder
Sarah 35 Todmorden Yorkshire
James E 8
FRED 5
Emily 5
Mary Ann Winsley 20
1871c RG10; Piece: 636; Folio: 9; Page: 12
Bermondsey London
Amos Schofield 45 Rochdale builders foreman
Sarah 42
Sarah A 20 Halifax
James E 17 Halifax Clerk
Emily 15 Halifax
FRED 15 Halifax boy in office
John 4 Hackney Middlesex
1881c Bermondsey London
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK6Y-ZVHH
Fred is no longer at home
family search have these christening entries surname
SCHOLFIELD parents Amos & Sarah
Walsden Lancashire
Fred 1855 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NF7J-GFZ
Emily 1855 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7JY-1PP
John 1877 born 1867 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NTHR-J6Y
Baptisms parents Amos SCHOLFIELD occ Builder/Joiner & Sarah
Stone Cross Todmorden, Sidney 26 Aug 1848 born 3 Jul, abode Stack Hill in Langfield
Christ Church, Sarah Ann 3 Nov 1850, abode School Lane
James Edward 7 May 1854 abode York Place
St Peter Walsden Emily & FRED 25 Nov 1855 abode Todmorden in Langsfield
John 5 Aug 1877 born 21 Feb 1867
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Hello Catherine the Great,I tend to agree with you about Amos and Sarah being Freds parents,I have exausted the info on Ancestry after searching for 4 years.I have Freds sons as my Grandfather Percy,your Grandfather William Henry Smith,Edward,Ernest,and sisters Bertha who married Arther Hawley in 1921,Lily who married Reginald B Scothern in 1919 and Ellen(Nelly) who marrield Ernest Batten in 1917.Hope this information is correct.Sorry ,I have just found another bit of the puzzel and that is that Edward A Smith died in1896 reg Bakewell aged 9.Do you know where any of the family is buried. thanks Jane.
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Hi Forestfloor
First of all I am interested as to why you think William' s second name was Henry as we have always known him as Wm SchofieldSmith and this is on his gravestone with his wife Alice in St Giles churchyard Matlock. True, it does give the initial H on the 1891 census but I have always taken this as a misprint.
I believe that Fred and Kate are buried in the old churchyard at Darley Dale but I don't think there is a stone , I have looked. Ernest married Annie in 1910 and their son was Victor born 1911.
I am confused about Ellen as she was only born in 1906 so could not have got married in 1917... ???I found her birth at the Derbyshire Record office. There was also Edith who was born around 1904 but died 1908. I also believe Edward was buried at St Helen's Darley Dale but have not looked for his stone if there is one. Over to you !
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I have just found another bit of the puzzel and that is that
Edward A Smith died in1896 reg Bakewell aged 9.
Do you know where any of the family is buried.
On the original entry for the 1891 census Edward Smith's middle initial is 'A'
Edward Albert Smith Age at Death: 9
1896 Jan-Feb-Mar Bakewell Derbyshire Volume: 7b Page: 433
Edward Albert Smith Burial Age: 9
Burial Date: 13 Mar 1896 Darley, Darley, Derbyshire, England
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Hello ladyhawk Thankyou for the information you have kindly found for me.Its a great help and to Catherinthe Great. After going through my research ii have found some glaring silly mistakes.William i hope married to Alice Eyre in 1918. their daughter Margorie was born in 1921.Now i hope this is right but my Grandfather told my mum that Kate remarried in1914 to another Smith, Thomas Smith and that Kate died in childbirth to twins in 1916.Have you any information about Ellen.I know Matlock very well so will seek out the churchyards when weather improves. regards jane.
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Hello again Catherine the Great,hope you can help me with this,Mum once told me about a cousin she had in Matlock called Lesley Smith.He was a milkman?...and there was talk about a Postoffice.Mum died in 2011 so I wished I had took more notice. Regards Jane.
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Hi forest floor
Well the plot thickens . Yes your facts re William are correct. You did not mention Ellen and her marriage ...
As regards Kate this is news to me but I vaguely recall something about dieing early but if Percy said that , it must be true as she was his mother. More stuff to research!as regards The post office the only link is that my mum was a telephoning at the post office in Matlock and that Bertha's son was called Leslie Hawley. Don't know if he was a milkman. Let's know if you have any other info or queries.
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Now i hope this is right but my Grandfather told my mum that
Kate remarried in 1914 to another Smith, Thomas Smith
Their marriage certificate should confirm if she was a widow and her father's name, this looks to
be the marriage entry on FreeBMD
Jun 1914 Bakewell vol 7b page 1918
Kate SMITH to Thomas SMITH
Kate died in childbirth to twins in 1916.
Is this the death entry you are referring to?
Mar 1916 Bakewell 7b 953
Kate SMITH age 49 (born c 1867)
I can't see any twin births Mar 1916 with mmn Bircumshaw
there are these birth entries
Basford Sep 1914 A SMITH (male)mmn BIRCUMSHAW
Chesterfield Mar 1915 W SMITH (male) mmn ''
Chesterfield Dec 1916 C SMITH (male)mmn
Basford Sep 1917 E Smith (male)
Chesterfield Jun 1919 M Smith (female)
Basford Mar 1922 E Smith (female)
The above birth entries may relate to this marriage
Basford Sep 1913 Thomas E Smith to Lois Bircumshaw
the only way to confirm parents names would be to obtain a b/c of one of the children
I did find a twin birth (male & female)
Basford Mar 1916 vol 7b page 429 mmn ALLCOCK
There is this marriage entry
Basford Mar 1911 Fred SMITH female name on same page Mabel ALLCOCK
there are many Smith mmn Allcock birth entries in Basford between
Dec 1911 - 1922 see FreeBMD http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
have not entered full names for Smith/Bircumshaw as I do not know if they are still living
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Thanks Ladyhawk the Bakewell entry will be the one as Kate was resident in Darley Dale
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Hi Forestfloor I think I am back to square one . I have had a
look at Edward Albert 's birth certificate which I had. It gives Father as Edward Smith which makes me think this was his registered name as his death certificate also gives Edward. Young Edward was born in Robin Hoods bay and my feeling is he was called Edward as he would have been Edward seniors first born . Ernest being not his son as far as I can surmise. So basically still searching for Edward senior's parents. Any more info gratefully received sync from you Ladyhawk thanks C the Great.