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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Leanne. on Wednesday 19 February 14 10:42 GMT (UK)
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Following on from my other thread.
I got a copy of my grand parents marriage certificate, so it has opened up a lot of info and searches for me. If any one is willing to help me more I will take any help I can get.
I'm stuck on the 1901 census. I think it is my family because on the marriage record it states address as Main street, Shettleston. Census has same address.
William is correct age. His son George is correct age ( don't know any info on siblings at this stage) There is another daughter listed as Agnes and both William and Mary have a mother named Agnes.
The only thing is Mary's ages don't match. On the marriage record in 1878 she is 17 so birth is c 1861. On the 1901 census age is 37 so born c 1864. Which means she was 14 when she got married and lied about her age. Could that be possible? Did stuff like that happen?
I will post my line of research so far ( in the next post ) just incase anyone is bored and wants to check my work to make sure It's all correct so far.
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Sorry if this thread is in the wrong spot.
Start of research my grand parents marriage record
William Taylor(20) married Elizabeth Raeburn(18) 1938 - Leith Edinburgh
William Taylor's parents are : George Taylor and Rebecca Walker? ( Writing is hard to read )
marriage of George Taylor(20) to Rebecca Walker(19) 1911 Dysart, Fife.
George's parents are : William Taylor and Mary Collins.
Marriage of William Taylor (20) and Mary Collins (17) ( Very hard certificate to read ) 1878 Shettleston, Lanark.
William's parents : Charles Taylor and Agnes ? Cooper ? ( This certificate is even harder to read )
Can't find a marriage record for Charles Taylor
Would it help if I posted all the certificates ?
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The only thing is Mary's ages don't match. On the marriage record in 1878 she is 17 so birth is c 1861. On the 1901 census age is 37 so born c 1864. Which means she was 14 when she got married and lied about her age. Could that be possible? Did stuff like that happen?
I just found Mary on another tree on ancestry and they have her birth date as 1864 and marriage age as 14 !
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Found Mary Collins birth record. b 17th May 1863 so she turned 15 a few months before her wedding.
Census asks for age at last birthday so that all adds up now.
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Mary Collins, according to death certificate, was daughter of William Collins and Ann Hendry. (Marriage certificate states that mother was, what looks like, Agnes Henry!!)
William Collins and Ann Hendrie married 30/12/1859 High Church, Glasgow. Census shows both of them were born in Ireland.
Mary Collins was born 17/5/1863 Shettleston, dau. of William Collins and Ann Hendry.
This makes Mary 15 1/2 when she married William Taylor on 27/12/1858. I believe this perfectly legal in Scotland.
As to William Taylor, b.1858 son of Charles Taylor and Agnes Cooper.
According to 1861 census in Hamilton they were not married. I am only able to view transcripts and it says:
William Steven 41 Silk Weaver b. Hamilton, Lanarkshire
Elisabeth Steven 58 Tambourer ditto
Agnes Cooper stepdaughter 32 unmarried Tambourer b.Hamilton
Alexr. Taylor grandson 8 b. Hamilton
William Taylor grandson 2 ditto
This seems to be an accepted thing in Scotland - that children born illegitimately more often than not would grow up with the surname of their father. Sometimes you will find that both parents are named on a birth certificate even though not married, sometimes not.
In this instance, William's birth is registered under mothers maiden name and his father is not named:
William Cooper b.1/11/1858 Hamilton, son of Agnes Cooper.
As you can see from 1861 census, it looks like Agnes had had an earlier child by said Charles Taylor too.
Annette
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Mary Collins, according to death certificate, was daughter of William Collins and Ann Hendry. (Marriage certificate states that mother was, what looks like, Agnes Henry!!)
Yeah on the marriage certificate I have it looks like Henry, but on Mary's birth certificate that I have it looks like Hendry.
Thank you so much for all that info, just going through it now.
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William Collins and Ann Hendrie married 30/12/1859 High Church, Glasgow. Census shows both of them were born in Ireland.
On Mary's birth certificate it says parents are William Collins and I think it says Agnes or could be Ann it's so hard to read. marriage details 1861. ( June 1st ? ) I don't know Scotland very well so I can't even take a guess at the place listed, it's so hard to read.
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This makes Mary 15 1/2 when she married William Taylor on 27/12/1858. I believe this perfectly legal in Scotland.
1878 ?
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Hi Leanne :)
Would it help if I posted all the certificates ?
In short , no , if they are copyright images they will be removed.
You may post small portions of any cert. if you are having difficulty reading the writing.
ev
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Yes, sorry Leanne - marriage should read 1878 not 1858.
Annette
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The marriage date looks like 1st Jan. 1861 Tollcross Manse and you'll note that the birth entry above also shows that parents married at this place.
Think that sometimes people just couldn't remember exactly when they married. Dates didn't seem to have the significance that they do nowadays.
No more credits left so can't check on the marriage certificate of William Collins and Ann Hendrie 30/12/1859.
Annette
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If you google Tollcross Manse you'll find a site come up that list lots of photos. Was at Parkhead, Glasgow and a bit about the vicar states 'his manse at Parkhead was for many years a busy marrying centre'.
Annette
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The marriage date looks like 1st Jan. 1861 Tollcross Manse and you'll note that the birth entry above also shows that parents married at this place.
Think that sometimes people just couldn't remember exactly when they married. Dates didn't seem to have the significance that they do nowadays.
No more credits left so can't check on the marriage certificate of William Collins and Ann Hendrie 30/12/1859.
Annette
I've got credits I'll check that one.
On the Birth certificate is does say father is the informant, so it is possible date is totally wrong ;)
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I'm viewing the certificate, how can I prove that Ann Hendrie is Agnes Hendry / henry
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1871 Census shows family living in Shettleston - William's wife shown as Annie - with children Mary 7, William 5 and George 2.
George's birth certificate shows he was born 16/12/1868 Old Monkland, son of William Collins and Annie Hendry - again William is informant but this time correctly shows marriage as 30/12/1859 Tollcross Manse. Marriage date agrees with marriage found of William and Ann Hendrie.
Think this proves it.
Annette
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In this instance, William's birth is registered under mothers maiden name and his father is not named:
William Cooper b.1/11/1858 Hamilton, son of Agnes Cooper.
As you can see from 1861 census, it looks like Agnes had had an earlier child by said Charles Taylor too.
Annette
Thank you, how did you know to look for him as William Cooper and not William Taylor ?
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According to 1861 census in Hamilton they were not married.
With no marriage record, is there any other way to keep tracing the family tree back ?
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I simply looked for him on census 1861 - found him and it showed Agnes as Cooper and unmarried.
No birth listed for William in name of Taylor so searched under Cooper (knowing she was unmarried in 1861) and there he was. There is also no marriage, as you'd already stated, between a Charles Taylor and Agnes Cooper.
As to tracing back Charles Taylor - now that really is a poser. His occupation, according to William's marriage certificate, is Pattern something - looks like Maker or Weaver.
Unless one is able to find something that seems to fit this you are kind of up a gum tree, so to speak. At this time, Agnes was born and living in Hamilton so one would suppose Charles was in that area too but cannot find anyone who seems to fit.
Annette
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Have been doing some more digging. Charles Taylor's given occupation doesn't make much sense as I read it and I now think it could be a badly written Cotton Weaver.
Have found a candidate that fits this bill - find him in 1841 and 1851, born and living in Hamilton too, but by 1861 he has vanished and cannot find a death for him. Could have emigrated - who knows?
1841 - Young Street, Hamilton
Alexr. Taylor 50 Cotton H.L.W. (H.L.W. stands for hand loom weaver)
Bertha Taylor 20 Tambourer
Matthew Taylor 20 Cotton H.L.W.
John Taylor 15 ditto
Charles Taylor 12
Jean Taylor 10
Alexr. Taylor 7
William Taylor 5
1851 Census - 15 Young Street, Hamilton
Alexr. Taylor 60
Elizabeth Taylor 33
Charles Taylor 22 Weaver
Alexr. Taylor 17
William Taylor 15 - all born Hamilton
The Scottish naming tradition is quite helpful when identifying families. If you google you'll find out how it goes - suffice to say 1st son is usually named after their paternal grandfather and first daughter is usually named after maternal grandmother (which is why my own mother was given the 2 names Margaret Ingram and she had 3 cousins that had these Christian names too).
So, although not married, it makes sense that if this Charles Taylor is your man (right age, right area, right profession) then his first child would be named Alexander and Agnes Coopers eldest son on 1861 census is Alexander Taylor.
At best this is only a theory but seems a pretty darned good one to me.
Agnes Cooper eventually married (as a single woman) to a William Fleming (quite a bit older than her) 1/1/1863 Hamilton. They had a son Robert b.6/7/1864 High Church, Glasgow.
Hadn't previously found William Taylor in 1871 Census but have now found the family - couldn't find on Ancestry but found on FindMyPast.
1871 Census - 30 Sylefield Street, St. John, Glasgow
Wm. Fleming 55 Wool Weaver born Hamilton
Agnes Fleming 42 born Hamilton
Alexander Tylen (?) son in law 18 born Hamilton
Wm. Fleming (?) 13 born Hamilton
Robert Fleming 6 born Glasgow
Can only view transcriptions of Scottish census so quite what is written on the original I don't know. Presumably 'Tylen' is actually Taylor but whether William is actually shown as Fleming
have no idea. However, this is clearly the right family group.
Agnes Fleming died 1892 in Shettleston - informant son Robert Fleming.
Hope this helps.
Annette