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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Petles on Tuesday 18 February 14 11:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to find the baptism of a Phillip Harman born abt 1824 in Stroud Gloucester , according to his marriage cert his fathers name was also Phillip occupation cloth maker .
I can't find either in the 1841 census and in 1847 he was married in St Pancras London , any help would be greatly appreciated .
Petles
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if this is him he was in prison 1839 found guilty of larceny by servant got 6 months age 16 trial middlesex
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sorry I haven't been able to find baptism or 1841 census for him :-\
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Hi,
Thanks for looking I think he was a non conformist from his death cert so maybe that is why there is no baptism record for him . Maybe if there are non conformist ones he would be in them .
Petles
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can't see him in the non conformist either
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Have been able to trace his family but surname is difficult to follow due to spelling variations.
In 1851 it states that Philip was 27, a Lithographic Printer, born Stroud, Gloucestershire and believe you must already have these details. He is with wife Elizabeth and son William 6mos. (They had an older son Philip Samuel born 1848 but I cannot locate him on the 1851 census).
Baptisms: Philip Samuel Harman b.19/6/1848, bp.12/7/1848 St. Giles w/out Cripplegate
William John Harman bp.15/9/1850
However, he does not appear to have been born in Stroud, Glos., or if he was he certainly wasn't baptised there. He married Elizabeth Rogers 30/8/1847 St. Giles w/out Cripplegate, London and was son of another Philip as you stated. The witnesses Mary Ann Buckle and George Buckle were his sister and brother in law. Elizabeth died (I believe 1856) and Philip remarried a Sarah Wickson, spinster, 6/6/1858 St. Pancras. (He possibly died the following year 1859 Shoreditch). This time his father is shown as Philip Harman, Tailor and the witnesses are the same ones who witnessed his first marriage i.e. sister/brother-in-law.
Have found his parents living in Heston, Middlesex on the 1851 Census - ref. HO107 - 1698 - 137 - 15.
Philip Harmon 50 Master Tailor (emp. 1 man) b. Westbury, Wiltshire
Hester Harmon 54 b. Trowbridge, Wiltshire
Philip Harman married Hester Webb 25/12/1817 St. James, Trowbridge, Wiltshire.
They had 3 children that I can find:
Mary Ann Harman bp.16/4/1820 St. James, Trowbridge, Wiltshire, dau. Philip/Hester (she married George Buckle 11/2/1839 St. Andrew, Holborn, London and witnessed both of her brother Philip's marriages).
John Harman bp.31/5/1829 ditto ditto
(John married Maria Hogan 4/1/1847 St. Mary, Lambeth followed by a remarriage in 1875)
Eventually found Philip's baptism although surname has been transcribed as Ormand!
Philip bp.26/12/1824 St. James, Trowbridge - son of Philip/Hester.
Since all 3 children of Philip/Hester married in London I think the family must have been in London/Middlesex by 1841 although I cannot find them on the 1841 census.
I then discovered an online tree for Philip and Hester but it only shows children as Mary Ann and John so the submitter obviously hadn't found your Philip's baptism (not surprising when it's listed as Ormand not Harman!) I'm glad I only found this tree latterly as it confirmed everything else I had found including that Mary Ann had married George Buckle.
I have viewed the original marriage certificates of Mary Ann, Philip (2) and John and this confirms I have the correct 3 siblings. Whether Philip was indeed born in Stroud and taken back to Trowbridge for his baptism (his mothers birthplace) I have no idea.
In 1861 Philip and wife (shown as Esther) are in Isleworth, Middlesex - ref. RG9 - 772 - 20 - 33. He is now a Woollen Draper. His wife died as Esther Harman in 1866. Three years later he remarries a far younger lady named Ann Roberts Dec.qtr.1869 Aylesbury, Bucks. He's become 4 years younger by 1871, acquired a young wife and is now a Wesleyan Methodist Preacher!
1871 - Waddesdon, Buckinghamshire - ref. RG10 - 1414 - 123 - 13.
Philip Harman 67 Wesleyan Methodist Preacher b. Westbury, Wiltshire
Ann Harman 37 b. Waddesdon, Bucks.
Martha Roberts 72 mother-in-law Pauper ditto
Looks like he died in 1875 so outlived his son of the same name.
Annette
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Hi Annette ,
Thanks so much for all your hard work , I stupidly missed the importance of the marriage witnesses and can only admire your dedication and helpfulness .
It has taught me to look beyond the stated fact esp with the place of birth once again I am extremely grateful for all your help.
Petles