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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: ejandrews on Tuesday 11 February 14 14:34 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
This is my first post here, so let me know if there's a better way to ask this. :-)
I have attached a snipped from 1861 census and want to need help with a last name and occupation.
Starting third line down is:
Ralph
Eliza
Kate P King
Transcribed census shows Ralph's last name as Hannth but I'm wondering if it could be something else? Also he is Secretary to ???.
Thanks!
Census image is from Ancestry.com. 1861 England Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2005. Original data: Census Returns of England and Wales, 1861. Kew, Surrey, England: The National Archives of the UK (TNA): Public Record Office (PRO), 1861.
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Ralph is Secretary to a Glass Company.
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Not sure on the last name :-\
I was thinking Ralph would be easy to trace on another census but not so far. Perhaps he was obligingly at the same address in 1871?
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I read Ralph Hassath - Secretary of Glass Company.
Ancestry has this:-
11 Historical Documents and Family Trees with Hassath on Ancestry.co.uk
8 Census and Voter Lists
1 Immigration Records
2 Birth, Marriage, and Deaths
Member Family Trees
Military Records
I've never heard of the name before, the only similar name would be Hesketh/Hasketh spelt incorrectly as Hascath.
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The little girl was born Glos as was Eliza. Maybe try tracing the name that way.
Could be Kate Potter King born Cheltenham Jun 1854. Maybe Eliza was a King and could find a marriage to Ralph?
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The little girl was born Glos as was Eliza. Maybe try tracing the name that way.
Could be Kate Potter King born Cheltenham Jun 1854. Maybe Eliza was a King and could find a marriage to Ralph?
I've just been looking at Kate I think her mother's surname may have been KING
KING Kate P mmn KING 1854 Cheltenham she marries 1892
ANDREWS Matthew to KING Kate Potter parish Charlton Kings district Cheltenham
1891 Kate King is with her mother Mary Ann King
also two gd/ children of Mary's Harry A (Augustus) & Robert A (Alexander) mmn King
There this marriage 1849 Stroud MATHER Ralph to KING Eliza
info. from Gloucestershire BMD http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/
I think Eliza is the sister of Mary Ann King born c1829 Twyning Gloucestershire
Not sure it's the same Ralph from the 1861 census
Eliza & Ralph MATHER on the 1851 HO107; Piece: 2061; Folio: 609; Page: 20
living Dartmouth Street Warwickshire
Ralph 29 pob Glasgow occ Pin pointer
Eliza 27 Stroud Gloucester
Thomas 1 Stroud (mmn King see Gloucetershire BMD)
found her death
Eliza Mather age 45 (1822)
Burial Date: 22 Oct 1867 Burial Place: St Peter & St Paul Aston, Warwick
Spouse: Ralph Mather
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There's a Ralph and Elizabeth Mather in Birmingham in 1861: RG09 piece 2146 folio 88 page 28.
I agree that Kate P King is an important clue but am not sure her mother Mary Ann's maiden name was King. Mary Ann had with her in 1861 a son Henry, 16. This may (or may not) be his baptism: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J3D5-SG4.
Edit: sorry, having checked 1861 again he is supposedly Mary Ann's unmarried brother, though she claims to be a widow ???
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I agree that Kate P King is an important clue but am not sure her mother Mary Ann's maiden name was King. Mary Ann had with her in 1861 a son Henry, 16. This may (or may not) be his baptism: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J3D5-SG4.
Edit: sorry, having checked 1861 again he is supposedly Mary Ann's unmarried brother, though she claims to be a widow ???
from Gloucestershire BMD
KING Henry
father name KING
mother name KING
mothers former name GREEN
1844 Cheltenham Tewkesbury
possible marriage 1837 St Mary (The Abbey) Cheltenham Tewkesbury
George KING
Mary GREEN
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Have you considered East Londoners' funny penchant for putting haitches where they shouldn't be and dropping them from where they should be?
A friend of my mother's told me he was from Ackney :)
Just a thought. Maybe not a very good one :P
Cheers,
China
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I wonder whether the original poster ejandrews (welcome :) ) knows any more about these people (even provisionally) which might give any leads. The census entry is poorly written both as to Ralph's surname and his birthplace, so on its own it is a tough starting place.
Even if the enumerator had better handwriting, it wouldn't be conclusive as to Ralph's surname as it would only be the enumerator's interpretation/transcription of what appeared on the household schedule.
Is there anything more to go on, & why are they the subject of interest?
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I've tried all my tricks. Couldn't find a thing :(
I don't think those are S's though...the N in King looks just like them.
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Does this help :-
Regards
Malky
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What about Hannath - and the enumerator forgot the second 'a'?
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Could it be Hasenth?
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What about Hannath - and the enumerator forgot the second 'a'?
I agree with Josie..Hannath/Hanneth
Carol
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Wow, all of you are amazing!
I've been in homework help crises all day yesterday with my son so didn't get a chance to answer any post - will go through then today.
I do have a bunch of information and I can't wait to correlate everything you found with what I have so far.
I'm attaching a txt file that is a summary of some of the research I have on the Kings. Like I said I can't wait to go through all the post so to add to my information!
Thanks to everyone!
-Kate's mother is Mary Ann King b 1825 Twinning, Gloucestershire
-Kate has at least two siblings, Robert L King b 1843 in Cheltenham, and Henry King b 1844 in Bristol
-Kate has 2 sons, Robert A King b 05 Dec 1886 and Harry A king b 10 Oct 1886 both in St. Mary's, Gloucestershire, at some point she marries, most likely Matthew Andrews, and the boys last name changes to Andrews
-Kate dies around 1893 in Cheltenham and the her sons live with their cousin Mabel King (their Uncle Henry's daughter) in London
-Kate's brother Robert L King has immigrated to Little Rock, Arkansas, US sometime before 1870
-Kate's sons immigrate to Little Rock, Arkansas, Us in 1903 and live with Robert's daughter Minnie and her husband John Hodges
-Kate's brother Henry had moved to St. Leonard on Sea and started a very successful school, St. Leonards Collegiate School, later changed to King's College (after their last name)
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There's a Ralph and Elizabeth Mather in Birmingham in 1861: RG09 piece 2146 folio 88 page 28.
I agree that Kate P King is an important clue but am not sure her mother Mary Ann's maiden name was King. Mary Ann had with her in 1861 a son Henry, 16. This may (or may not) be his baptism: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J3D5-SG4.
Edit: sorry, having checked 1861 again he is supposedly Mary Ann's unmarried brother, though she claims to be a widow ???
I think Henry was misidentified on that 1861 census. He is her son. You can see him and his brother Robert on the 1851 census for Cheltenham, St. Pauls district. Henry is pretty consistently identified as having been born in Bristol in 1844. He later 1868 taught at Orphan Working School, Haverstock-hill, London and then moved to St. Leonards-on-sea, Hastings and founded the St. Leonards Collegiate School. He married Louisa Acton.
I'm pretty excited about the baptism record! I'll pursue George as Mary Ann's husband and see if it fits!
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Ralph is Secretary to a Glass Company.
Thanks!
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I wonder whether the original poster ejandrews (welcome :) ) knows any more about these people (even provisionally) which might give any leads. The census entry is poorly written both as to Ralph's surname and his birthplace, so on its own it is a tough starting place.
Even if the enumerator had better handwriting, it wouldn't be conclusive as to Ralph's surname as it would only be the enumerator's interpretation/transcription of what appeared on the household schedule.
Is there anything more to go on, & why are they the subject of interest?
Thanks!
I'm just getting round to each post. I do have a ton of other information. I was working on a post for the general Gloucestershire board to ask for help with more information on Kate King's family and in doing that had realized I didn't know where Robert or Kate King was in 1861 and found the 1861 census of Kate visiting Ralph and his wife and was trying to trace down Ralph and couldn't figure out the name, so ended up posting it here.
I added a post just a bit early with a text attachment with much of what I have pieced together on this King family in Cheltenham. This is my husbands family and my father-in-law had a professional due some work years ago and has a death certificate for Kate but hasn't been able to send it to me (the papers are all packed away). I'm excited about some of the new leads! I was hoping to find out Ralph's occupation and now I may know Kate's mother's maiden name and her fathers name, which had been eluding me! :)
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-Kate has at least two siblings, Robert L King b 1843 in Cheltenham, and
Henry King b 1844 in Bristol
-Kate's brother Robert L King has immigrated to Little Rock, Arkansas, US sometime before 1870
-Kate's brother Henry had moved to St. Leonard on Sea and started a very successful school, St. Leonards Collegiate School, later changed to King's College (after their last name)
You probably have this info. on Robert but just in case
Robert L King age29 born England occ Carpenter
1870 US census
1880 Little Rock Pulaski Arkansas
Robert 39 Carpenter married Mattie 27 dau Minnie
Robert L King born 29 Jan 1843 Age at Death: 53
Death Date: 1 Jun 1896 Burial Place: Little Rock, Pulaski County, Arkansas, USA
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0y14/
Robt L King age 34
Arrival Date: 23 Aug 1875
Port of Departure: Liverpool Port of Arrival: New York, United States
Ship Name: Baltic
I checked Gloucestershire BMD again to see if I could see Robert L Kings 1842 birth entry Cheltenham there’s not one with a middle initial of ‘L’ but there is a Robert King 1842 Cheltenham but NO mother’s maiden name
The Cheltenham birth entry I posted for Henry King born 1844 mmn Green
your Henry King was born 1844 BRISTOL (there are two entries on FreeBMD 1844 Bristol)
his marriage cert to Louisa Susannah Acton would hopefully confirm his father’s name
just in case you don't have these
Henry King of Alexandra House Ellenslea Rd St Leonards on Sea died 20 Mar 1933 probate to Charles Rowbotham Andrew Manager Effects £3553 18s.
Louisa Susannah King died 19 Jun 1938 of 74 Avenue Road Harold Wood Essex widow died 10 Jun probate London 25 July yo Mabel Frances Kings spinster Effects £337 7s 4d
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For info.
possibly the Henry King born c1844 Cheltenham son of George & Mary may not be your Henry
See what you think found these two censuses and other baptisms mmn GREEN
1841 census Twekesbury Cheltenham
George King 25
Mary Ann King 25
Willm King 3
All born in this county
1851 census Sheffield Yorkshire
George King 35 Police Constable
Mary 36 (possible death of a Mary Ann King Sheffield 1855)
William 13
Sarah 9
HENRY 7
Mary Ann 5
George 1
All born Twekesbury Glost.
1838 bapts William https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NP1R-6HW
1838 mmn Green (see Gloucestershire BMD)
1843 bapts. Sarah https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J7M5-XFZ
1841 mmn Green
1844 bapts. Henry details already given mmn Green
1846 bapts Mary Anne https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NB96-75V
1846 mmn Green
1849 George mmn Green (see Gloucestershire BMD)
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-Kate has at least two siblings, Robert L King b 1843 in Cheltenham, and
Henry King b 1844 in Bristol
-Kate's brother Robert L King has immigrated to Little Rock, Arkansas, US sometime before 1870
-Kate's brother Henry had moved to St. Leonard on Sea and started a very successful school, St. Leonards Collegiate School, later changed to King's College (after their last name)
You probably have this info. on Robert but just in case
Thanks for all of that! I do have it but it's nice to get confirmation that we are lead to the same places. I do need to look into the birth certificates in Bristol, just hoping to narrow it down before I start spending money on certificates!