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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: suemillie on Saturday 25 January 14 01:16 GMT (UK)
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I have returned to genealogy after many years of fruitless searching for an elusive birth record of my father. He was placed into an orphanage between birth 1918 and 1923 however there are no Government records – that I have managed to locate – of him being placed or paid to be in there, yet according to the history of this orphanage – Willard in Palmerston North, only urgent cases of destitute or parentless babies/children were placed there. He never knew the identity of his parents and there is no birth registration in his name.
How can a baby/toddler be placed into care and then on a farm as a helper later in life, but not be in any official records? I know things were covered up by certain people in those days, however I am sure he must be registered somewhere if he had no parents around him, and being in care for 14 years.
He may have been in another orphanage or home, possible in Palmerston North, between 1918 and 1923 however still no records that can be found.
Has anyone had the experience of finding that a child could be just ‘renamed’ after birth and put into an orphanage by a concerned person? He has always assumed he was illegitimate however there must be records somewhere.
Any suggestions please?
Sue
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Sue,
The child may have been registered as 'unnamed male' and later registered under the name he is known by.
He would have attended a school and it should be possible to view, or obtain, information that was given when he was admitted to a school. Many NZ libraries and branches of NZ Genealogy Society may be able to help with this.
Happy hunting
RajahNZ
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Hello Sue and welcome to Rootschat........ :)
With the wealth of experience that a number of Rootschatters have, I'm sure some help will be provided to sort out this conundrum.
In the meantime just to clarify the situation, I'm guessing your father is still alive?
Minniehaha.
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Hi, Unfortunately dad died many years ago, I was unable to find his parents before he died.
I have all the records from his school and just says care of orphanage. Tried looking under "unnamed male" but nothing obvious.
cheers
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Hi Sue,
Would you have a problem providing your father's name on this forum? Quite understand if you would rather not but by doing so, it might provide the "leg up" needed to set the ball rolling.........
Minniehaha.
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The name you know him by may not be the name he was registered with.
This especially happens in adoptions, and even sometimes with children placed in care.
Dawn M
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Hi Minniehaha
No problem - his name is John "Jack" Gray. Supposedly born 10.06.1918. Unfortunately such a common name doesn't help. I am convinced he was registered however no idea as who. Even in 1918 it would have been difficult to have not registered a birth. He may have been put up for adoption and it fell through but he should still be in some sort of legal documents if this was the case.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
And could you provide his date and place of death too, please? Any "crumbs" of information like this could be helpful............
Minniehaha.
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On the NZ BDM website index there is the death of:
Jack John GRAY died 1994, D.O.B. 10.6.1918. Your dad?
His birth will not appear on the index until 2018.
This will require a search of the birth indexes on fiche............
Minniehaha.
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Here's a picture of the Willard orphanage:
http://digitallibrary.palmerstonnorth.com/awweb/awarchive?item=4737&type=meta
Spades
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Sue isn't joking about the duration of her search: I see unanswered enquiries on both Ancestry and Rootsweb dating back to 2000. 8)
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Bless you Spades, believe me it is so upsetting to not even get off the ground in researching family trees. To have absolutely nothing to start with is really frustrating.
Sue :(
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Hi Sue,
During the period you mention New Zealand had a state-operated system known as Industrial Schools which did the same function, see: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/NewZealandIndustrialSchools.htm)
I wonder if he was in an Industrial School before ending up at Willard?
Perhaps the reason no records of him can be found is because he was entered under another name and was given another at a later date.
For records of the Willard orphanage have you eliminated any local library, family history society or archive?
What happened to the WCTU? If they still exist do they still hold any records?
Spades
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Yes, you're right, Sue. :)
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Hi Sue
Have you discounted 1918 GRAY Jack? I'm not sure where this birth was registered though - the reg number is 6755, but for 1918, the district keys go as high as 6631.
The entries on this fiche are typed, and every now and then a handwritten name has been added later, as is the case of Jack GRAY. After the reg number "sect 14" has been added. Maybe someone can help with what this means?
Cheers
Helen
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And blow me down, the WCTU is still in operation. :D
http://www.wctu.org.nz/
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The entries on this fiche are typed, and every now and then a handwritten name has been added later, as is the case of Jack GRAY. After the reg number "sect 14" has been added. Maybe someone can help with what this means?
Hello...
Twiggy posted the following about Section 14 in an earlier thread...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=555594.msg4084873#msg4084873 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=555594.msg4084873#msg4084873)
As I read it, sometime after 1951 Jack GRAY needed to present a birth certificate, possibly to claim a pension. There was no record of his birth so BDM NZ made an entry in the 1918 Births register under Section 14 of the 1951 Births and Deaths Registration Act.
I don't think that purchasing this birth record will advance the cause as it's not from the time of the event (1918) but from at least thirty-plus years later (1951).
But that's just my opinion. Feel free to purchase a printout of the certificate if you think it's for the correct Jack GRAY and that it will help the search.
Regards
Beg
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Hi
Yes section 14 it was, just means it was a late registration - a very late one in Dad's case. Yes the WCTU is still around. I have researched them and have all their history, however they did not keep records of inmates. He simply did not exist in records until he was registered at school in Palm North.
I have researched Industrial Schools and yes all Orphanages had to be registered, through either the Hospital or Industrial Schools, however none of this has helped in his birth registration. I have searched all the birth registrations that are similar and anything that could be him, but just ended up with an awful lot of photocopies of records!
My research has been exhaustive regarding the orphanage and birth records but to no avail. I need to know how to research information in Government departments as I am sure he must be on some sort of files somehow!
sue
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Urk!
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Hello Sue...
If Jack GRAY has a male descendant have you considered, as a loooong term strategy, a Y-DNA test.
Regards
Beg
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The Women's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) didn't keep records of inmates?
I have to say I'm appalled.
But did they keep records which they later disposed of, or might they have sent them to National Library or another archive? I can't see anything on Archway.
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Hi Beg
Yes he had 6 of us - five sons - do you mean for future use?. I have often thought of pulling a few hairs from a number of people that look like him - but then I would no doubt be put in an institution myself!!! And I guess it does not help at this stage with his birth registration.
I am sure that if there was a genealogy site for family photos purely for lost souls it would be interesting to see any resemblance in families that might help in connecting the dots.
Spades – WCTU kept a lot of records but certainly not on inmates names - not the sort of thing done in those days and considering they were trying hard to prevent any kind of ungodly acts, illegitimate children were certainly hidden and not recorded in detail.
sue
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According to a report in the 'Dominion' dated 15.3.1920, it was at that stage plans were afoot to establish a home, the proposed name being "The Willard Home for Children".............
Minniehaha.
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Hi
Yes it was finally established in 1920 and only urgent case were accepted. Dad was obviously somewhere before this time for at least the two years but no trace. The home was run not only by the WCTU and the church but also the public. I learnt all about the home but they had a fire at some stage and all records were burnt. Just to add to my frustration.
I am sure he exists somewhere in government records but unfortunately they are not available to Joe public.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
I have two illegitimate children who ended up in an Industrial School in the 1880's, both were named in the lists of inmates submitted each year. Industrial School record-keeping was thorough as their charges were effectively wards of the state.
I'm sorry for you that the WCTU records have disappeared.
Spades
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A report in the 'Feilding Star' dated 28.5.1920-
"At present children from this Coast have often to be sent to Wellington or to more distant homes......."
[This as plans were still underway re the setting up of the Willard Home.]
Minniehaha.
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So do we need to look for an Industrial School for Boys in Wellington?
There was St Joseph's in Wellington but that was a girl's School.
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Hi Spades
I did quite a comprehensive search on industrial schools but unfortunately 1918 - 1923 seemed to have a lot of missing information. I think they were held at National Archives but I seemed to have come up against brick walls all the time. 1918 of course was the epidemic with many deaths in NZ and I think a lot of information was not accounted for at the time.
Sue
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If his birth was registered under another name, and his birthdate is correct, when the 1918 birth records go online (unfortunately still over four years away..), you might be able to find him by making a list of males born on that date. It would be time consuming, but you could go through the fiche and pull out the male births (starting with the PN region), and then check them on the BDMs online to see if any were born on that date. Even though only the year is listed online, the exact birthdate can be narrowed down using the "to" and "from" fields.
I hope you find him prior to this though :)
Helen
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Hello Helen
Thank you for this. Yes I basically did that when I first started. Although without the two and from fields of course. I ended up with an awful lot of extra birth records and of course too expensive to do that know. I have to assume that his birth date is correct as it was the only one he knew and I did search a year before and after. Interestingly there was three registrations for a birth, I think in 1923 and 25 if I remember (papers in storage at the moment) which I believe related to a 1918 birth. It seemed they were three failed adoptions. I was advised by the RGO to apply to the Courts to seek details on the file under a particular section of the Act, which I did, however the Judge decided it was the wrong section and to apply under a different one but the RGO refused to accept that one, so between the two of them arguing the section it came to a stalemate - a further brick wall and despite my affidavit and reasons given, being exceptional they couldn't be reasonable.
Because He could have been born anywhere in NZ I did extensive searches of other areas also.
So when the records eventually come online - will they be able to be narrowed down to specific dates?
Also is it possible for the public to go to the archives and look through the handwritten birth registration records individually and look at all the registrations for a particular date of birth in case the details have not been transferred to the fiche? I'm assuming not.
Sue
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Hi Sue
The births come online after 100 years, so on his 100th birthday you could start comparing the births on the fiche to the online records. If you enter a surname and restrict the "to" and "from" fields to 10 June 1918, only people born on that date will show up. Alternatively you can determine an unknown birthdate by narrowing the "to" and "from" fields until you hit that date (I also learnt this from a helpful Rootschatter).
It sounds like a very frustrating battle to find out about the 1918 birth. :( As far as I know, as long as the birthdate was recorded, then you should be able to determine the exact date when the 1918 entries go online. I'm not sure about looking through handwritten records.. I'm sure someone else will jump in and advise :)
By the way, I have the births fiche up until 1920, so if there is anything you want looked up, feel free to ask.
Helen
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A very quick trawl through Wellington newspapers on "Papers Past" published between the years 1918 & 1920 revealed these three orphanages:
1.St Joseph's Roman Catholic Orphanage, Upper Hutt.
2.Wellington Presbyterian Orphanage & Social Service Association, the Superintendant of which "can be contacted at Berhampore, Wellington".
3.North Island Methodist Orphanage. I did not follow up as to where this was situated.
Minniehaha.
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Yes he had 6 of us - five sons - do you mean for future use?
Hi again...
I've had no first-hand experience with so-called Genetic Genealogy but from what I've read I'm fairly convinced it's a valid option in a search such as yours. Having said that, there's only a very small chance - but a chance nonetheless - that it will pay dividends in our lifetime.
I can easily see that within two or three generations genetic screening at birth will be a standard procedure, if not mandatory. Two or three generations after that the searching of genetic databases will be as common for our descendants as the searching of the BDM website is for us.
The "serial number" written into a) your father's Y-chromosome, b) his father's Y-chromosome and c) your brother's Y-chromosome is pretty much identical. For the next two hundred-ish years any male born with that "serial number" will most likely be a descendant of your father's father. Or at least share a close common ancestor with your father's father. If this newborn male is not known to your family then he may be the one who breaks the brick wall for your g-g-g-g-genealogist-descendant... and all because you had the foresight to do a Y-DNA test of your brother two hundred years earlier.
Matching Y-Chromosome DNA Results
http://www.smgf.org/pages/yinterpretation.jspx (http://www.smgf.org/pages/yinterpretation.jspx)
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Unless you can find a sample of your father's DNA then unfortunately DNA testing won't help in locating your father's mother. She did pass on her "serial number" to your father but it stayed with him. A father doesn't pass on his mother's "serial number" to his children.
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None of the above will help in your search for a birth certificate but two things I've learnt in my short time genealoging are...
1) B, M and D certificates aren't worth the paper they're written on
and
2) We're all going to end up as a name on a list and I really wish some of those names on some of those lists from a few hundred years ago had left me a DNA sample.
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The births come online after 100 years [...]
If it's still necessary and if you remind me and if I'm still around in June 2018 :-) I can do the search of the BDM website suggested by FireFly. Theoretically it should only take 48 hours or so to find everyone born on 10 June 2018.
Regards
Beg
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Hello Beg and Helen
Thank you for this, it is fascinating and is something I have thought about so will follow up on DNA testing, if only for future use.
What I find confusing is that when the BDM do eventually go online and I can search for his birth, if there is no registration there now, why would there be any more information online, or is it because I can view all 10.06.18 births and try and narrowing it down - which I thought could be something that can be done now at RGO or is it because of the 100 year rule now? searching was so much easier and fruitful before this changed!!
Sue
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Hi again...
I don't know about searching the registers in person but I suspect that nowadays the 100 year rule would stop you from doing that. You could always contact BDM NZ and ask.
Personally I can't see the reasoning behind the 100 year rule as the fiche make a mockery of it. Obviously some bureaucrat with an eye to the dollar.
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If you want you can search through the 1918 births fiche for all births registered in the Manawatu region. But you don't know for certain that his birth was registered in the Manawatu region so it could be a waste of time.
Whereas you know that his date of birth was 10 June 1918. All births on that day can be found on the BDM website 100 years and one day later, namely 11 June 2018. There is software which will search for births on that specific day. The search normally takes a couple of days to complete.
By my reckoning you'll end up with about 50 names to look at, all of them born on 10 June 1918 (35,000-ish births, half of them male, divided by 365 days)
Of course, if 10 June 1918 is simply a made-up birth date then it's all just gigo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out) :-)
Regards
Beg
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Well after all these years and resuming my search, I have now come to another brick wall, my dad was definitely not registered anywhere official. Unbelievable that an orphan baby/toddler/teenager can exist in an orphanage, school and sent to a farm and yet no one official had responsibility of him. I have exhausted all the Archives, Churches and Social Development records and nothing to report.
Thank you all for your suggestions. Something’s are just not meant to be found.
Sadly I will now put it to rest!
Sue
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I have just come across this and wondered if you know about Derek Griffis private collection -
I found it via the newsletter online of "Waikanae Family History Group News"
ILLEGITIMATE BIRTHS These situations arise all the time so we were quick to remind members about Derek Griffis’ 25,000 plus database of names, assembled by Derek from Police records, has proved valuable, proved a surprise to many, proved there were family members we did not know about and some we may never find. Having been with Derek when he showcased his database in recent years it has been fascinating to see the reaction of some members when his data revealed a new find, an exciting find – one female member at one meeting performed a new dance, she was so excited about her find. Derek can be contacted here at Waikanae on (*) or you can look him up in the phone book. All births of this nature were reported to police and included the fact that unwilling males were called upon to pay maintenance of “7/6 pence a week” for example.
Hope this helps, Good luck in your search
Maureen NZ
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi Maureen
Thanks for your post.
Although this is an old post, Sue should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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Thanks Dawn, much appreciated
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Thank you Maureen, I have just had a reply from Derek and unfortunately he has nothing even remotely like my dads details in his file - why does that not surprise me! his details are well hidden.
Kind regards
Sue
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Oh Darn, has someone looked at the BDM fiche already for you? If not I would be willing to go through them to see on the chance if I may possibly find something, It would take some time of course, but I'm looking to try and find someone anyway, so if you would like me too, you can message me
Cheers
Maureen NZ
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Hello.
Just come across this thread.
As the 100 years are up, I've had a quick look, and as assumed [by Beg] above there are 52 GRAY births registered for 1918 and only one in the month of June. That one being the 1980 retrospective entry for Jack GRAY in June 1918.
There were no GREY hits for June 1918 and only a total of four for the year.
Also no GAY hits for 1918, and only two CRAY hits.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search?Path=querySubmit.m%3fReportName%3dBirthSearch%26recordsPP%3d30#SearchResults
The 52 entries cover two on line pages. On the first page there are several late registrations, but none at first glance, appear to indicate possible siblings for the said Jack.
Alan.
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Did you ever take a DNA test? With the numbers who have now tested it may hold some answers.
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I agree with Bearcat even connections with a mutual great grandparent. or.3rdcouisins could lead to clues when you see a surname or region occurring which does not occur on your mothers side.
My mum found a half cousin who had no idea that his father had a half sister
His DNA matches with long distant people on the mutual grandmother's side but of course not with.
The grandfather or her other set of grandparents .
Then there's a lot of elimination work and cross referencing to find the family the adopted child relates to .
You have more chance of identifying his parents of they had other children afterwards and IF they or their descendants have taken the test .good luck
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Hello.
Just come across this thread.
As the 100 years are up, I've had a quick look
Hello Alan...
I think Sue has found the relevant birth. If she sees your post I'm sure she'll update this thread.
Regards
Beg
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Hello all, Wow it's amazing how postings can ignite so many years later. Thank you so much for your replies regarding my father - John "Jack" Gray.
Yes, one of my brother's, my half-sister and myself did our DNA and we are now officially a Robertson from Scotland and McCallum and can trace my tree back to the 15th century.
Beg was wonderful and found a rogue birth registration in the name of Skinner, nothing like I had imagined nor researched in the past, and bingo - it is almost certainly my dad with McCallum being his mother, this all tying up with our DNA.
So DNA opened up a minefield of information and family. However I am now in the situation as to whether I inform relations of my generation that their grandfather almost certainly had an affair with my grandmother and Dad was the result. I have read some interesting articles lately on the merits and downfalls of DNA discoveries and while it is wonderful for my family to finally discover our roots and family members, do I contact them and broach the subject - let alone ask if they are interested in doing a DNA sample? I will have a think.
Just why my father who was registered as a Skinner being his mother's married name at the time with NR for father, then became a Gray when put into the orphanage. There a three registrations for a Jack/John Gray later in the years which were failed adoptions so I wonder if that was my dad but unfortunately that information is not available to me. Otherwise that aspect will perhaps always remain a mystery.
I hope to contact the archives for social welfare records and see if there are any records for John Skinner now as opposed to John Gray (which they could not find anything for - hence Dad not existing).
So there you go. I would definitely advise DNA testing but caution with the results.
Kind regards
Sue
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Genealogy + DNA testing can be wonderful that's for sure. However the results can bring heartbreak too. I came across this Rootschat post just recently from someone who unfortunately opened up an unexpected can of worms......
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813840.0
Minniehaha.
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I'm really pleased that you found your origins.
DNA is a great addition to paper research but it can throw up some surprises. Good luck with your dilemma.