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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: annandalan1 on Thursday 23 January 14 16:42 GMT (UK)
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I know Lily Smith was born Feb 1885 from Memorial cards on her death 17th Aug 1918, Herne Bay, Kent: she was born in England and had a sister, Ada (1911 Census of Ireland, Portobello Barracks, Dublin): she married Thomas John Smith (Corporal East Kent Regiment "The Buffs") on 16 Nov 1905 at St. Thomas' RC Church, Canterbury, Kent. They had 5 children - Josephine (1906), Thomas (1908), twins Harold and Kathleen (1910) and Billy, then Lily died Aug 1918 in childbirth. I know her father was William Alfred Smith - on her marriage certificate "deceased - Bandsman The Buffs". My 'brickwall' is I have been unable to find Lily's birthplace or her mother's name - part of the problem is a 'Smith' marrying a 'Smith'! Can anyone help please.
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat :)
There is this possibility in 1891 in Colchester, Essex :-\
RG12/1411 folio103 page 42
William Smith 42 occ Hawker bn Ireland
Annie Smith 30 bn England
Alice Smith 9 bn England
Lily Smith 7 bn England
Ada Smith 5 bn England
Grace Smith 2 bn England
William Smith 9 months bn England
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There is a William Alfred Smith born Colchester 1890 in The Buffs who gives his mother as Mrs Annie Radford which would fit the above family if the father had died and mother remarried.
It shows his uncle as A J Scragg serving in The Buffs and also mentions a brother Harry. :-\
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Thanks for that Rosie - I had been drawn to the 1891 Census return in Colchester, but couldn't take it any further. However with your addition of the name Radford I've found that Annie Smith did marry a William Radford in Colchester in 1898; I then found them on the 1911 Census in London - it gives Annie's birthplace as Rowhedge, Colchester and living with them is Harold Smith, age 17, boarder - but crossed out is 'son former marriage'. That's a strong pointer to being 'my' Lily's family as Lily had a son called Harold (my husband's father). Not proof but ticking a few more boxes! I'm now trying to find William Alfred Smith and Lily's marriage and where Lily and Ada were born; another positive is that William Alfred was born in Ireland (1891 Census) and my father-in-law always told us he was a 'quarter Irish'.
Thanks for your help :)
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Annie Radford is at Shorncliffe age 36 in 1901 bn Rowledge - can't see the children yet though
RG13 piece 851 f 93 page 45
Rosie
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It shows his uncle as A J Scragg serving in The Buffs :-\
If A J Scragg was born in India - he is the son of Samuel Scragg and Alice Smith
Marriage Sept qtr 1867
SCRAGG Samuel
SMITH Alice
Elham 2a 1331
At his marriage Samuel was 24 and a Sergeant in 3rd Buffs - his father was William Scragg a labourer
Alice Smith was 18 and her father was James Smith a private soldier
According to census Alice was bn in Colchester.
Rosie
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1891
24 Brock Street, Macclesfield
Samuel Scragg 48 bn Macclesfield, Cheshire
Alice Scragg 39 bn Colchester, Essex
Alfred J Scragg 16 bn Calcutta, India
Frederick C Scragg 13 bn Colchester, Essex
Lilly M Scragg 10 bn Macclesfield
Leonard Scragg 6 bn Macclesfield
Maude Scragg 3 bn Macclesfield
Alice Scragg 5 months bn Macclesfield
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Thanks again Rosie - Yes I found Annie Radford at Shorncliffe in 1901 and also William Radford (age 35). I can't find the children either, although I have found a William Smith (b. Colchester age 10) at Ongar Road, Brentwood as a boarder, but haven't followed that up yet. Also found Harold Smith's enlistment in the ASC in 1914 age 20, in London. Alfred John Scragg enlisted in the Buffs in July 1892 at Canterbury, but so far I haven't found a definite connection except for the fact that his mother was Alice Smith, born Colchester. I've searched the parish registers around Rowhedge, where Annie was born, but can't find anything definite, neither can I find any of the children's baptisms - I think this could be because they may have been Catholics - I know that Lily and Thomas John Smith married in a Catholic Church and Thomas wasn't catholic at the time, so it must have come from Lily's family.
I've sent to the GRO for 3 certificates which I hope will give me Annie's maiden name.
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Let me know how you get on once you have the certificates
Rosie
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Will do - thanks :)
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Thanks for your input Rosie - I've received certificates from GRO and am almost certain this is my Lily and her family. Birth certificate of Harold Smith (b.Dec 1893) shows Annie's maiden name as Allen, and that Harold's father, William Alfred was deceased at the time of his birth; this ties up with the death certificate of William Smith (d.Nov 1893); on both certificates William Alfred is 'Barrack labourer' 'Army Pensioner'; the family were living in married quarters at Colchester. The marriage certificate of Annie Smith and William Radford in Oct 1898 also shows Annie's father as Alfred Allen (deceased) and I'm in the process of searching/finding her family in East Donyland/Rowhedge, Essex - all seem to have been mariners/fishermen.
I still haven't been able to find the birthplace of William and Annie's first 3 children - Alice (abt 1882) Lily (abt. 1885) and Ada (abt. 1887) but will keep working on that.
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Thanks for letting me know. :)
There is a possibility for Annie Allen in 1881, Colchester - age 21 bn Rowhedge but she is not with family
RG11 piece 1787 folio 16 page 25
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Thanks Rosie -
Yes I found that 1881 Census record - which does also link with everything else as Annie was recorded there as living in Mersea Road, Colchester, which I know is in the same area of Colchester, and also very close to the Army Barracks there. She looks as if she's added a year to her age, but I expect that's probable if she was living alone. If I have the correct family, her mother, Rachel, had died in 1877 and I can't find her father, Alfred Allen, on the 1881 Census.
However also in the 1881 Census all the children were living away from family - Alfred and Harry (Annie's brothers) were in the Union House, Stanway, Colchester; sister Kate Allen was General servant in the St. Botolphs area of Colchester (also very close to Mersea Road, the Barracks and also Cannon Street, where Annie was with William Smith and their family in 1891 Census: sister Rachel Allen was at Rowhedge, East Donyland as 'niece'.
I do need to double-check some facts in the Essex Registers, but it all seems very probable at the moment :).
I'm still searching for William Smith & Annie Allen marriage and also for birthplaces of Alice (1882); Lily (1885); Ada (1887) and Grace (1889) - wonder if they are related to an Army placement for William between those years. Does anyone know how best to search within the Military for these? It's possible that William was stationed at Colchester Barracks, but there's also the Kent/Dover/Canterbury connection?
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There are pages of W Smith's with no ages or places of birth on the indexes listed on findmypast military records but no way of isolating most of them.
I keep looking back at this ;) Sorry I am no help at the moment.
Rosie
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I have found a Lily Smith birth in 1885 in Army Births and Baptisms/Regimental Birth Indices 1761-1924 - Hounslow - father in 7th Foot - but that's a bit vague: I don't know how to take that any further other than send for the birth certificate - which I might do.
I need to understand more about how the Army regiments/battalions etc worked. I don't know whether Lily's father, William Alfred, was always in the EKR 'The Buffs' or whether he transferred to another Regiment - did they do that?
Thanks - I wouldn't have got to this point without your help :)
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Hi
I have no idea about Army records, you could always try a separate post on the 'Army boards' for advice as to where the Buffs might have been around that time.
There is a christening in Hounslow in May 1885 for a Lily Smith whose father is in the army but he is Charles Henry with wife Eliza and is in 5th Battn Royal Fusiliers.
The next entries to this are Joseph H & Florence Maud Carpenter whose father is reportedly in the same battalion as Charles Henry Smith. I have just looked these two up on Regimental indexes and they give the Regiment as 7th Foot like your Lily Smith. I am thinking that the birth reg you have found is the one that matches the christening I have found. ???
Rosie
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Thanks Rosie -
Yes I think you're right - the baptism in Hounslow doesn't look like 'my' Lily -
I posted on the Military Forum and got some advice, so will try and follow that up
Ann
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I will watch your other post with interest. :)
Rosie