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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Dimps on Wednesday 22 January 14 22:39 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone identify the dignitaries in the picture and where it might be. Everyone is looking very sombre and part of the word "opening" is at the bottom - the opening of a book of condolence, maybe?
All suggestions very welcome. It's from a friend whose family is from Woolwich, but it doesn't look like Woolwich to us.
Thank you.
Deborah
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I love these mystery photos - it is amazing what people can deduce.
First thing I noticed was the washing on the lines (behind the crowd) ;D I will keep looking ...
sign/plaque at the back below second window says MOTORLORRIEL?(or something) .... I can't make out the rest.
Anything on the back of the postcard? Who did this belong to and where did they live? (answers to these questions might give clues) Is the part with "openin" on it a separate piece of paper?
Time wise I will guess 1920s/30s.
PS. MOTORLORRIES makes more sense ... perhaps?
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There are houses and shops up above, and a signboard which unfortunately I can't read.
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Just wondering if it's some kind of subway as a street can be seen top right at a higher level.
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I'm finding the depth of field (or something) a bit confusing. Is the crowd below the line of the street? You can see the row of houses in the background? They look higher up to me ... :-\
Snap greensleeves - I see we are thinking similarly.
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Is the washing hanging below roofing or some sort of covering?
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It does not look like a civic affair when you would expect to see a Town Hall in the background. Perhaps the opening of a new factory having regard to the background ????
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Just wondering if it's some kind of subway as a street can be seen top right at a higher level.
Maybe the opening of a new rail line / underground extension? It would be nice to know where the person who owned this postcard lived. The pillar in the middle looks like something you might see on a rail platform.
The wooden boarding to the top left of the picture might be the back of an advertising sign which is facing the road at ground level?
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It is interesting that apart from the two young men to the right of the lamp post all seem quite miserable. The crowd do not look over joyed for some reason.The two young men are amused by something. Did young men have such long hair in the 20s and 30s ?
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I should have said three young men
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The two young men are amused by something. Did young men have such long hair in the 20s and 30s ?
Maybe they are ruffians. :) The ladies' hats and clothes say 20s/30s to me ...
(sorry DImps, I now see mention of Woolwich as possible location)
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Ruffians ;D
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Think it's motorlorries & ???? hire.
It seems to be a two tier street, the photographer on the upper tier opposite, but than why would there be a post in the middle of a street?
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Lamp post perhaps ?
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Think it's motorlorries & ???? hire.
It seems to be a two tier street, the photographer on the upper tier opposite, but than why would there be a post in the middle of a street?
Two way street, with lampposts in central reservation?
Underpass?
Tunnel?
Everyone looks miserable because their houses were knocked down to build tunnel/road/whatever ... ;)
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or perhaps Monday blues. I am assuming that washing was usually done on Mondays :)
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Just realised that sign in the background, upper storey reads
MOTOR LORRIES
********* HIRE
I think it might well be a subway, as I said earlier. Would account for the sad faces if a neighbourhood was knocked down.
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Just wondering if all the washing hanging there was a form of protest.
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The sign says "motor lorries cars for hire". Another sign - on the far right - says Cars Stop Beware Residents". The washing, upon closer inspection, appears to be stalls (on the far right, for instance, numerous pairs of braces and a couple of scarves are hanging with more scarves on a display table below). The structure looks like iron, but is made of wooden planks (which explains why an advertising hoarding is nailed/screwed to it). There are porches over the stalls, with corrugated iron on top. The houses and shop (canopies, pyramid of tins in window) are on a higher level. The photo is also taken from high up (from a second floor window, perhaps). From the closthes, I'd say it dates from about 1930. Most people are in "Sunday best" and are looking rather sombre. There is a pen on the table as well as flowers - could it be the opening of a book of condolence?
All comments and suggestions welcome. Thank you for those so far.
Deborah
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Yes, odd place to hang washing - so close to train tracks or road ... and people surely wouldn't leave their washing on the line whilst an official opening of anything was taking place. A protest sounds feasible.
I wonder if the event got a mention in the papers? (Especially if there was a protest surrounding it.)
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So Dimps, you think they may be shops/stalls rather than washing lines?
If the road or rail track or whatever was cut below ground level it might be that the photo was taken from across the road rather than from a higher story of a building opposite.
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It may have been cut at a lower level or a natural slope has been tiered. Really, though, I haven't a clue as I don't know where it is. I've sent a message to the owner. His family are from Woolwich - but there isn't anywhere in Woolwich like this. I've asked whether any of his family were from across the river and whether there is anything on the back of the postcard or the backing paper.
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I'll be interested to see what he says - anything at all might give us a clue. It may not have been Woolwich itself but you might expect it to be in Greater London somewhere. ;D
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It may have been cut at a lower level or a natural slope has been tiered.
I haven't got a clue really, but to me the level the photographer is standing looks to be the same level that the woman opposite is standing.
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I have looked and looked and I can't see a sign which says 'Cars stop beware residents'. Could anyone point it out to me please?
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It is a very small sign, on the upper level, on the right-hand side.
The postcard is on a card backing. It was given to my friend amongst a collection of Woolwich pictures - thus the assumption it was also of Woolwich. However, neither of us (nor anyone else in the area) know of anywhere that looks like this. There is nothing on the back of the card backing and he does not want to steam it from the postcard - which is likely to be blank as it was especially mounted.
On a hunch, I have been looking at various Bridge Places, Bridge Streets and Bridge Roads in London (although it could be anywhere) on Google Maps/Street View. No luck, so far. In all likelihood, the wooden structure was temporary and the area has been redeveloped since in any case.
I was hoping that someone would recognise one or more of the dignitories and the location worked out that way. I'm assuming that the one standing up is the chairman of an organisation, as he is wearing some kind of medal of office.
The mood of the scene does not tally with a demonstration to my mind.
Thank you to everyone. I have seen Rootschatters doing the most amazing detective work to identify locations. Fingers crossed!
Deborah
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I don't think it is an higher level at the rear. From the way the people in the forefront of the picture are looking up and the view of the top of peoples heads it looks like the photographer was at a height above the proceedings.
The height of the fencing and the angle of the picture obscure the width of the road and pavement of the street behind but the house/shop fronts are visible, because of the angle and the resultant view it looks like these houses are at a higher level, which they are not.
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I agree with youngtug. The high fence behind the crowd has a hoarding on it right of centre. To the left of this is a lady outside a front door, on street level I should think, much smaller because perspective.
Perhaps the opening of a market?
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I disagree - to me it looks most definitely that the row of houses and the adjacent streets are at a higher level. As observed the street at that level is bounded by a wooden fence with stalls below. the photo clearly has been taken from above which would suggest that there were properties on the other side of a similar level, with the central area lower than elsewhere. This to me would suggest an under-pass, tunnel or somesuch. I have checked out the Blackwall Tunnel but the photos of that don't seem to bear any relevance to this photo.
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to me the vase of flowers and the tablecloth look a bit out of place, like they have been hastily borrowed from someones front room. Are they about to make a presentation to a local lady,
head teacher? midwife? who is retiring, how they are going to get thro' the crowd is another matter.
mike
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http://www.britishpathe.com/video/stills/a-rapturous-reception
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Love the old newsreel.
Our 'opening' is not nearly so rapturous though. ;)
I think the table, cloth and vase of flowers was de rigueur for the opening of anything in those days.
In my first post I also wondered about the strange effect and was confused about the height of houses etc, however I am now convinced that there are two levels - the street above and the scene of the festivities on a lower level.
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I agree with Ruskie about the two levels - and I think these can be seen in YT's newsreel pics; excellent bit of sleuthing there, YT.
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Beresford square is on one level. http://www.plumstead-stories.com/photos%20-%20Woolwich,%20Beresford%20Square.htm
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I'm still convinced that the photo in question is on one level
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I don't think that the newsreel opening of Beresford Square is the same 'opening' in the photograph.
If so, why take photos of the event and sell as postcards, without including royalty in it .... :-\
The crowd would also be much larger - the top level would be heaving with people - as it is three is only a lone woman overlooking proceedings.
Also, visible buildings around Beresford Square are a lot larger and grander whereas in the postcard the houses look like domestic dwellings and very small local style shops.
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Unfortunately, it isn't Beresford Square - we would have spotted that immediately (we're local). The newsreel was taken from an upper storey of a building on the "High Pavement" - a pavement which is only slightly raised above the main square. There was no fence around the square and certainly no houses or shops of that style around the square.
By squinting, I can both agree and disagree about the level beyond the fence. It still seems to me a pretty sombre occasion and one that people have dressed for (most people are formally-attired and, despite the flat caps, not one of the ubiquitous white scarves that were almost part of the working class uniform of the time can be spotted). I am still convinced it was a gathering to pay respect - for either a much-respected local worthy or a tragedy.
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Why would you hold such gathering at that spot (underground) though Dimps? Also unsure about the table, cloth and flowers and whether it would fit with your theory? Also below the photo is/was the word "opening". :)
But yes, it does not look like a celebration, or maybe the speech is very boring and everyone is fed up.
PS, is that an umbrella on the table?
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I posted the film in answer to mazi's question
how they are going to get thro' the crowd is another matter.
mike
It is interesting though that the view of Beresford Square was thought to be on two levels has well.
Better if I had posted the link to the film ::) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/a-rapturous-reception
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I don't think it is underground - there is what appears to be a lamp post in the middle of the picture and no-one's in shadow. I assumed it was on two levels - although I agree with one of the earlier comments that it is possible that the camera angle means that the shops and houses on the other side of the fence can be seen in their entirety and are actually on the same or similar level. I think that the photographer is likely to be at an upstairs window rather than something that mirrors the fence and level to the rear of the picture.
I was wondering about the opening of a book of condolence - there is a pen on the table. Having said that, there's no book. Everyone looks too serious for the opening of something new.
It's certainly a puzzler.
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I posted the film in answer to mazi's question how they are going to get thro' the crowd is another matter.
mike
Better if I had posted the link to the film ::) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/a-rapturous-receptionIt is interesting though that the view of Beresford Square was thought to be on two levels has well.
Looks like a street scene on one level to me .... :-\
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I posted the film in answer to mazi's question how they are going to get thro' the crowd is another matter.
mike
Better if I had posted the link to the film ::) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/a-rapturous-receptionIt is interesting though that the view of Beresford Square was thought to be on two levels has well.
Looks like a street scene on one level to me .... :-\
I posted the film in answer to mazi's question how they are going to get thro' the crowd is another matter.
mike
Better if I had posted the link to the film ::) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/a-rapturous-receptionIt is interesting though that the view of Beresford Square was thought to be on two levels has well.
Looks like a street scene on one level to me .... :-\
[ I agree with Ruskie about the two levels - and I think these can be seen in YT's newsreel pics;]quote
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Thanks for that youngtug. I've changed my mind about where the camera was placed (high vantage point) - it could be the top of the Arsenal main gate, rather than the High Pavement.
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But for the avoidance of doubt, the photograph is not of Beresford Square.
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It looks to me as if it is on two levels but not a tunnel or underpass. Behind the crowd are stalls, you can see the canopies or roofs above the clothes hanging up. Is there anywhere in Woolwich where you would look down onto a square?
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Not like this. Beresford Square is the market place in Woolwich, but the buildings surrounding it are very different and it hasn't had a fence round it with corrugated iron covered canopies over the stalls - that would have impeded the thousands of people who went through the Arsenal gate every day - not to mention the trams, buses, post office wagons and other motorised traffic that used to go through. Apart from a slight incline to the "High Pavement" (which used to be at the top of two - three steps and is now at the top of a very gentle and barely discernible slope), the square is on one level.
It is highly unlikely to be in Woolwich. I was hoping someone would recognise the place or one of the dignitaries to help pinpoint the location.
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Not the correct place but is this the right sort of structure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Cross_and_Rows,_Chester,_Cheshire,_England,_ca._1895.jpg
As there is a sign for cars to take care than more a road on the top level rather than a walk way
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The houses/shop beyond the fence are of the ordinary Victorian terraced brick variety, typical of those in this area or, indeed, almost anywhere in London. You can just make out more round the corner (extreme top right of photo), with their front tiny garden, low walls topped with railings. From this, it can be ascertained that there isn't a lower floor.
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Chap standing up appears to be wearing a medalion with ribbon attached around his neck. Lord Mayor or is that too low key for a Lord Mayor to wear? Maybe something more 'local' to a particular area.
Also there is something on the table behind the flowers which I originally thought was an umbrella, but I've had a closer look and can't fathom what it might be.
I suppose there is a possibility that whatever this is, it may have been a casualty of bombing during WW2 and may not have been rebuilt, (at least in this form), so may not be recognizable to anyone today .... :-\
(Just looked again and maybe the 'umbrella' is a walking stick?) chap on the left looks like he is holding something rather tall on his lap? Too dark to see what it is unfortunately.
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That kind of medallion on a ribbon/sash is usually a medal of office, such as a chairman, club captain, etc. The object at the back of the table, upon closer inspection, is curved in the middle and flattens out at either end with a light-coloured 'handle' on the right. There is a gap below the curve but, if you look to the left, the standing man's leg is obscured by something rectangular and flat, which appears to be attached to the curved part. The lighter 'handle' is matched with a glint of something on the left-hand side of the curve - so I suspect it is ornamental, brass perhaps. Could it be a picture, plaque, coat-of-arms or somesuch commemorating the "openin"?
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I've obviously been looking at the picture for far too long. It is clearly an umbrella. ::)
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I've obviously been looking at the picture for far too long. It is clearly an umbrella. ::)
That was my original thought as I could see the curved handle and pointed end, but then I noticed that it seemed curved/bowed in the middle and I thought I could see below it between table and 'umbrella' to some white areas behind it .... or is that an illusion?
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A bit of a breakthrough here. I'll post a picture a bit later that needs dating accurately. A Mayor wearing the same medallion, but attached to the mayorial chain, is opening (re-opening, it would appear) the Globe Cinema in Plumstead Common - and it is possibly the same man. The ladies are wearing clothes that are very much of the latter half of the 20s.
Anyway, it confirms that the mystery picture is definitely in the borough of Woolwich.
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Look forward to seeing the picture! :)
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Motor lorries and hire, one post said. There cannot have been many of those in Woolwich, I wonder if a trade directory of the time would narrow the street behind to one of maybe a dozen at most.
mike
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Thanks, Mike. Good thinking!
Are the two men the same (with and without glasses)? The mayoral badge is. It is in the shape of a Tudor Rose with a depiction of The Great Harry on its face. I'll put the whole picture on the photo dating board.
Deborah
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Here's a list of Mayors of Woolwich, it may help track him down
http://london.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Mayors_of_Woolwich
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Are the two men the same (with and without glasses)? The mayoral badge is. It is in the shape of a Tudor Rose with a depiction of The Great Harry on its face.
Does it matter that in the original photo the badge is on a ribbon, but in this other one it's on a chain?
Arthur
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If they are the same man, then it doesn't matter whether the badge is on a chain or a ribbon. Also, the badge does show that the location of the original crowd photo is in the borough of Woolwich.
We have been using the list - but not all the mayors are pictured on the interwebs. My friend is going to the Town Hall later in the week, where they might have photos of them all. However, if both men are one and the same and we can date the picture (it's on the photo dating board), then we can identify him sooner.
He will also be visiting Greenwich Heritage Centre, too and will hopefully find the lorry hire place. I'm having a look online in the meantime. All help appreciated.
Thank you.
Deborah
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I agree with Ruskie that maybe they are all just bored, is why they look so sombre.
Fellow who may be the Mayor has been sprouting too long ??? ??? ::) ::)
What's the long thing on the table near the vase of flowers?
And look at the woman just down from the smiling lads - the bemused expression on her face!
:P :P :P :P
Dawn M
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interesting to compare the two photos. Despite the lack of glasses and the different angles, I feel fairly sure that they are the same chap (though I expect lots of chaps looked like that in the 20s/30s). ;D I think it is the (cleft) chin that is the clencher.
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Dawn. Her clothes are so much older in style than everyone else's. Look at the eyes of the boy to the right of her, with the fringe. He seems to be wondering why the bald man has more hair in his ear than on his head.
Most people think the object on the table behind the flowers is an umbrella. It looked like a curved handle type thing on a board on my computer, but an umbrella on my dad's. The thing in front looks like a pen.
Ruskie. We think it's the same man, too. If we can date the first picture, then we can match the mayor with the list of mayors. I've now heard that the Town Hall doesn't have any pictures and that there are lots of pictures at the Heritage Centre, but with no names or dates. :(
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I have no idea of fashion (so my daughter says) or how to date it, but right from the beginning those wide flat caps that a couple of dozen of the men are wearing drew me to a picture I have that’s thought to be 1917 just across the river in Silvertown/North Woolwich. Might help.
It’s the last picture on this page www.mawer.clara.net/portraits.html (scroll right to the bottom).
(I’ve been trying to place Lyles or Tates in the picture, but not yet.)
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Thanks Sugarbakers. My dad worked at Tate and Lyle in Silvertown for a while whilst serving his apprenticeship. Unfortunately, those wide, flat caps remained de rigueur for several years. The ladies hats, on the other hand... Not close enough, yet. Those hats became fashionable around 1925 and remained into the 30s. We have, though, found another picture of the man who seems to be speechifying. He was indeed a Woolwich Mayor and was pictured elsewhere with the same mayor's badge - but attached to the chain. My friend is going along to the Town Hall tomorrow to photograph the regalia. The badge was a Tudor Rose with a depiction of The Great Harry on the front.