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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: McInOvingham on Wednesday 22 January 14 14:54 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Whilst trying to further my Family History research I thought I would have my yDNA tested. The subsequent results for the 37 marker test show I am R1b1a2, but my matches have undoubtedly “thrown a spanner in the works”.
Let me explain. As previously posted my great x2 grandfather was William McIntosh born 1812 in Edinburgh. In the 1841 Census he was a Baker living with, and working for, James Haig at Slateford and later Colinton, both villages in those days near Edinburgh.
In 1842 William married Janet Hunter whose address, at the time of her marriage, was given as 4 Lyndoch Place, Edinburgh. It is assumed she was in service there.
However, previously in 1841 Janet had given birth to twins, David and John, who initially lived with her parents; William and Christina Hunter at 50, Causewayside Edinburgh (Census Record 1841). I have not been able to find their birth record.
In a later census (1851) William and Janet were living at Simon Square, Edinburgh with children David (b. 1841) and Christina (b. 1846). In this Census record Christina is said to have been born at Colinton which indicates that William spent more time in the vicinity of Colinton after his entry in the 1841 Census.
I find it strange that John, actually named Hunter like David in the 1841 census continued to live with his Grandparents after William and Janet had settled down at Simon Square. Perhaps he was ill at the time, as he sadly died on the 9th December 1851. He was buried at East Preston Road Cemetery in what appeared to be an unmarked Family Plot. This is because both William Hunter (John and David’s grandfather) and William McIntosh (their supposed father ) are both buried there also. The former on 29th March 1844 and the latter on the 30th July 1859. It is worth pointing out that William Hunter was 56 when John and David were born, so he was unlikely to have been their father.
Note also that John died at 2 Home Street where in the 1851 Census he was living with his widowed grandmother Christina Hunter who was a lodging house keeper aged 60 years. She would have been 50 when the twins were born!
So enter my yDNA results into the equation. Having uploaded my results to y Search I find that at a Genetic distance of 1 my closest match, with 25 markers compared, rather unexpectedly was with the Hayes family in the USA. There were no McIntoshs named on the list apart from myself.
So what can be the explanation for the lack of McIntosh matches. As I am undoubtedly descended from David it leads me to consider that the twins, David and John, were not William’s children.
Whilst I could not find Janet Hunter in the 1841 Census at 4 Lyndoch Place, or anywhere else for that matter, ironically I did find an Edward Hay and a William Hayes in a list of 100 soldiers at Canongate. (presumably Edinburgh Castle) ,or is this far too much of a coincidence?
So the search continues, were my ancestors named McIntosh or Hayes?
Any help or suggestions would be gratefully accepted.
G. McIntosh
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McInO, I would think it just indicates that not enough folk with that match-up have been tested. It's very fragmentory, particularly in Scotland. I don't personally know anybody who has had this done apart from myself.
Bests,
Skoosh.
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:) Hi,
I'd agree that it probably is most likely that no one with your name has tested.
My Uncle is in a similar situation - no one of his surname matched him when he tested last year, but several men of the same name, all in America, matched him - the men are all close relatives in one family so at first glance it looks like my Uncle is the odd one out but in reality he isn't.
I have now found reference to this other surname in old chancery bills concerning inheritance and am slowly beginning to make sense of them sharing my Uncle's y-DNA.
I know not everyone is in favour of DNA testing but this has opened up a whole new area of our family history. It's an exciting journey but definitely not an easy one!
Liz
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Hi,
Whilst trying to further my Family History research I thought I would have my yDNA tested. The subsequent results for the 37 marker test show I am R1b1a2, but my matches have undoubtedly “thrown a spanner in the works”.
Let me explain. As previously posted my great x2 grandfather was William McIntosh born 1812 in Edinburgh. In the 1841 Census he was a Baker living with, and working for, James Haig at Slateford and later Colinton, both villages in those days near Edinburgh.
In 1842 William married Janet Hunter whose address, at the time of her marriage, was given as 4 Lyndoch Place, Edinburgh. It is assumed she was in service there.
However, previously in 1841 Janet had given birth to twins, David and John, who initially lived with her parents; William and Christina Hunter at 50, Causewayside Edinburgh (Census Record 1841). I have not been able to find their birth record.
In a later census (1851) William and Janet were living at Simon Square, Edinburgh with children David (b. 1841) and Christina (b. 1846). In this Census record Christina is said to have been born at Colinton which indicates that William spent more time in the vicinity of Colinton after his entry in the 1841 Census.
I find it strange that John, actually named Hunter like David in the 1841 census continued to live with his Grandparents after William and Janet had settled down at Simon Square. Perhaps he was ill at the time, as he sadly died on the 9th December 1851. He was buried at East Preston Road Cemetery in what appeared to be an unmarked Family Plot. This is because both William Hunter (John and David’s grandfather) and William McIntosh (their supposed father ) are both buried there also. The former on 29th March 1844 and the latter on the 30th July 1859. It is worth pointing out that William Hunter was 56 when John and David were born, so he was unlikely to have been their father.
Note also that John died at 2 Home Street where in the 1851 Census he was living with his widowed grandmother Christina Hunter who was a lodging house keeper aged 60 years. She would have been 50 when the twins were born!
So enter my yDNA results into the equation. Having uploaded my results to y Search I find that at a Genetic distance of 1 my closest match, with 25 markers compared, rather unexpectedly was with the Hayes family in the USA. There were no McIntoshs named on the list apart from myself.
So what can be the explanation for the lack of McIntosh matches. As I am undoubtedly descended from David it leads me to consider that the twins, David and John, were not William’s children.
Whilst I could not find Janet Hunter in the 1841 Census at 4 Lyndoch Place, or anywhere else for that matter, ironically I did find an Edward Hay and a William Hayes in a list of 100 soldiers at Canongate. (presumably Edinburgh Castle) ,or is this far too much of a coincidence?
So the search continues, were my ancestors named McIntosh or Hayes?
Any help or suggestions would be gratefully accepted.
G. McIntosh
Are you a member of a surname project?, if not that's the best place to start, there's one for McIntosh here:
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/mcintosh/
More chance of matching someone there I'd imagine as people from other DNA companies also post their results, you should however consider a NPE so there is also this Hayes Surname project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/hayes/default.aspx?section=results
By comparing results with those you will at least see if you share common markers and perhaps ancestry. Plus your more likely to find a match as new people join all the time and you can ask questions, most project administrators are very helpful.
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Hi,
Many thanks for the info. Yes I am a member of the McIntosh Group and I am in contact with an administrator in NZ who thinks my results are 'odd'. The Hayes group is new to me so I'll investigate. My yDNA is R1b1a2.
Many thanks,
Gordon McIntosh
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Hi,
Many thanks for the info. Yes I am a member of the McIntosh Group and I am in contact with an administrator in NZ who thinks my results are 'odd'. The Hayes group is new to me so I'll investigate. My yDNA is R1b1a2.
Many thanks,
Gordon McIntosh
What is your genetic distance with the Hayes person at 37 markers?, a GD up to 4 is considered a match across 37 markers.
http://www.familytreedna.com/faq-markers.aspx
if it's within the distance of 4 you can see that it can be up to 14 generations ago.
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What is your genetic distance with the Hayes person at 37 markers?, a GD up to 4 is considered a match across 37 markers.
No this is an unfortunate misunderstanding of GDs and STRs. A 37 marker calculation of GD is a much simplified one and relies on assumptions, the main one being that the two people being compared have the same surname. It is no more than a rule of thumb.
If you use a 37 marker GD across people of different surnames the error margin becomes much greater, i.e. several thousand years. Do not rely just on GD calcs against people of different surnames.
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Hi , Thanks for your help.
My matches for 37 Markers are :-
Steps
2 John Hayes
3 Terry Lee Hayes
3 James Herbert Hayes
I have also uploaded my results to y search and have compared my results with a Hayes result ( user 2ZSC6) and my results over 25 markers match exactly with his apart from marker DYS 385B, where my result is 15 and his is 14. Again compared with another Hays ( TZBVB) this time over 37 markers I again match exactly, except for marker DYS 385b, where my result is 15 and and his is 14.
All of the Hay(e)s Families are in USA and I have emailed them. My ysearch ID is GWE3M and password is Clement.
What do you advise?
Regards Gordon
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You need to take a higher level of test to improve the reliability of the match. From a probablity point of view you could probably take either a higher resolution STR test (preferably 111 markers but 67 would be much better than what you have got).
Note that you will need to get a Hayes to upgrade if none of them have a higher level of test.
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Hi, Thanks for the input. I'll consider upgrading to a 67 marker test. Perhaps I should ask to join the Hayes Project Group as they seem to have many more participants than the McIntosh Group. One of the Hayes I was matched with had taken the 67 marker test. How significant is it that I match so closely with a Hayes? Only a slight difference on one marker seems a good match to me!
Regards Gordon
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A 36/37match for two people who share a common surname would be very significant as the FAQs
section of FTDNA states i.e.
1 genetic distance, Tightly Related, A 36/37 match between two men who share a common surname (or variant) indicates a close genealogical match. Very few people achieve this close level of a match, and it is within the range of most well-established surname lineages in Western Europe.
It's most likely that they matched 24/25 or 25/25 on a previous Y-DNA test, and the mismatch will be found within DYS576, DYS570, or CDY.
Now I know you have a difference of surnames with Hayes and McIntosh. I agree that it would be a good idea to join the Hayes group seeing the close matches you are getting out there. It is not without the bounds of possibility that there is an illegitimate Hayes line into your McIntosh line some way back and this is why you are getting the close matches. To this end the 67 upgrade may be well worth it to see if the close match continues. What you could also do is contact the Hayes matches and ask if they have done a family finder test, if they have then you could do one too and see if there is a cross over in your results.
Another thing I thought is if you can identify a proven McIntosh male line descendant of William McIntosh, one of his brothers , uncles etc is try and persuade them to test to see if their results match yours – as they should if you are a true line descendant of William McIntosh
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How significant is it that I match so closely with a Hayes? Only a slight difference on one marker seems a good match to me!
You need to take a 67 or 111 or 300 marker FGS test to compare across surnames. Period.
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Hi,
As you can gather I am a novice regarding DNA, so thanks for your assistance. Note I live in Ovingham Nothumberland.
Thanks again.
Regards Gordon
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Hi,
Re William's siblings and parents. For many years I had thought that William's parents were James McIntosh and Isabella Nisbet. They married in Dunbar in 1794, whilst James was in the East Lothian Cavalry. They had children James (b. 1807), David (b. 1809), William (b. 1812) and Jean Brown McIntosh (b. 1816), all born in Edinburgh. Whilst I was unable to trace the parents, and brothers James and David, I was able to trace Jean Brown, as she married Robert Roycroft, a Waterloo Veteran, and the Family sailed to New Zealand in 1847 to start the Roycroft Dynasty there. I am in touch with many of them and James McIntosh is No.1 in their Family Tree!
The proof that William was James' son is rather nebulous, so I was advised by a paid researcher to discount it. Hence I know of none of William's earlier relatives. I suppose this 'brick wall' led me to have my DNA tested. When the Hayes match turned up and this lead me to be 'suspicious' of the Jessie's children born prior to her marriage to William.
Regards & Thanks, Gordon McIntosh