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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Oxfordshire => England => Oxfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: frothycoffee on Monday 20 January 14 19:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
Ok this is yet another beginner to the forum asking for direction or help. I'm stuck on my family research with one Theyer Townsend b circa 1809 (pp1861 census) 1803 (pp 1851 census) in Filkins, Oxfordshire. Can anyone find him for me? or point me in the direction of where to look? I have a fair amount detail from marriage to burial but "going back" at the moment is a bit of a brickwall for me. Any help welcome.
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Hi and welcome to rootschat
I can only see one theyer townsend on familysearch.org, christened in painswick gloucetershire
15 sept 1807, but this christening was a long time after his birth, shown as 1 april 1806, time there to travel from Oxfordshire to painswick.
Parents are Robert Lawrence Townsend and anne, but I cannot easily find a marriage for them.
mike
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Welcome from me too!
Mike's find looks like a good one - particularly bearing in mind the unusual forename and the fact that Theyer and his family were consistently living in Chedworth, Gloucestershire, between 1851 and 1881.
However, before you finally "claim" him you need to conclusively (as far as possible!) prove that he was not born in Filkins and, similarly, that the Theyer baptised in Painswick did not go on to have a different family.
The parish registers for Filkins only date back to 1864 - before that BMDs were recorded in the Broadwell parish registers. I would suggest that you start a new thread (headed "Broadwell Look-up" or similar) to ask someone to check the baptism records.
Pennie
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there is a will for the rev Robert Lawrence townsend of bishops cleeve 22 july 1830 on the national archives index, may be a pure coincidence.
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Hi
Welcome to Roots from me as well.
Pennie gives you good advice in her post about the need for proof.
I have the Broadwell PR's so will be back in while after |I have taken a look.
NDRFT
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Me again
Nope - no baptism entry in Broadwell (Bradwell) records for anyone suitable.
NDRFT
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Thanks to everyone for your responses. Theyer Townsend is as far as I can ascertain not the same person referred to in Painswick. That particular Theyer was clergy having matriculated at Cambridge and I believe he went on to have his own family. "My" Theyer, through all the census returns 1851 -1881 is enumerated as coming from Filkins. He became a farmer and local worthy participating in administering poor law payments and Surveyor of the parish roads, in Chedworth. He married an Elizabeth Cuss at St John the Baptist, Latton in 1833. The record indicates the groom's parish was Withington. I understand you only needed to be resident in a parish for three weeks (time for the banns to be called) and have not checked Withington parish records but hope to do so shortly, but have to get up to Glos. records office first.
Again. Thanks for the quick responses and efforts put in by everyone.
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Hi frothycoffee,
I've just looked into the marriage register transcriptions for Latton and have found these details most of which you are aware of;
Ex Wilts Marriage Licence Bonds CD (ex Wilts FHS) with permission;
#50824 Theyer Townsend of Withington, Glouce, Bac to Elizabeth Cuss, sp, of Latton, Wilts.
Licence dated 17-12-1833 Latton.
As you know the marriage did indeed take place, by Licence, in Latton on 26-12-1833
Not much info for you i'm afraid but hope it helps.
Alan
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Me again,
On FreeREG there is the baptism of Theyer Townsend as listed by Mazi earlier.
"That particular Theyer was clergy having matriculated at Cambridge and I believe he went on to have his own family. "
It is the father who is clergy and is annotated as "Rev. Robert Lawrence Townsend" and it could be the
son Theyer is the one you are looking for.
For info the FreeREG lists him as follows;
St.Marys, Painswick, Gloucs
Born 1-4-1806, Bapt. 16-9-1807 Theyer. s/o Rev. Robert Lawrence Townsend & Anne, abode; Steanbridge.
File Number 15329
Alan
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Hi Alan
How's it going?
That is a nice piece of work finding that - well done.
Nigel
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I think that one has been discounted because if you use fanilysearch for theyer townsend there are two of them in the 1851 census summary, I should have spotted that earlier. :-[ :-[ :-[
mike
added, I am puzzled that although he is certain about his place of birth as filkins he is not sure of his age.
I do wonder if he was born there but maybe baptised elsewhere, or there are some other reasons why he is so hard to find other than missing records.
I am still puzzled why the Rev Robert Lawrence Townsend christened his son 18 months after the birth
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I do wonder if he was born there but maybe baptised elsewhere, or there are some other reasons why he is so hard to find other than missing records.
I am still puzzled why the Rev Robert Lawrence Townsend christened his son 18 months after the birth
[/quote]
Mike
I agree that it seems he was born and baptised in separate locations - not unusual in my findings over the years.
Like wise leaving a child until 18 months is equally not unusual except it is because his dad was a vicar
Nigel
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Why get married by license when on the face of it a normal marriage by banns seems perfectly possible, did he want to avoid having banns read in the parish where he was living.
mike
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Hi Mike,
I find there are several reasons why people married by licence; On this occaision I can only think
it was because Theyer was from Withington, Gloucs. and Elizabeth was from Latton, Wilts.
Across county borders and different Dioceses.
I didn't find any "Theyer" Townsends on FamilySearch but using A...y did find him once only in the 1851 census born about 1803 Filkins with his family which includes a son Theyer.
Is that who you are referring to when you said there were two of them?
Alan
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Hi to all who are helping me,
I'll dig around to try and track the Rev Robert Lawrence Townsend. There are quite a lot of records showing up on the Ancestry website and they all seem to be related so I've some work to do to pull together a family tree for him. The will mentioned by "Mazi" Is the earliest reference so far for the Rev RTL (1830) It details property etc in Steanbridge so it's not a coincidence, it is the same family. However he names only two sons Robert Lawrence, William Lawrence and a daughter Elizabeth no Theyer so it doesn't look on the face of it helpful. However I've also found a reference on the website British History Online referring to combining a bequest of Theyer Townsend who by will dated 1801 left £100, the interest to be distributed in bread on St. Thomas's day. Now I've just got to find the will.
With regard to the comments about marriage by license the thoughts by Alan were the same as mine, Theyer was from a different parish and diocese to his bride to be, but as always open to suggestions.
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A few odds and ends which may be connected:
Before Filkins had its own church, the inhabitants often used the parish church at Broughton Poggs.
There is only one TOWNSEND baptism at Broughton P. in the time frame 1790-1820. This is Sophia, baptised 13 April 1806 d/o Daniel and Elizabeth Townsend of Filkins.
Sophia Townsend married Edmund Lane at St Mary de Lode, Gloucester 20 June 1822 (by banns)
Sophia Lane, born Filkins c 1808/9 shows up in censuses living at Chedworth (1841), Sevenhampton (1851) and Cheltenham (1861). She is recorded as married in 1851, widowed in 1861, but Edmund doesn't show up with her at all.
A Daniel Townsend aged 66 was buried at Withington 27 December 1826. (Gloucestershire Burial index)
Theyer and Elizabeth Townsend had a son named Daniel baptised at Chedworth on21 May 1837 (familysearch.org). A 3 year old Daniel Townsend was buried at Chedworth 16 April 1840.
Daniel seems to have been their eldest son. Their eldest daughter is named Elizabeth.
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Hi Mike,
I didn't find any "Theyer" Townsends on FamilySearch but using A...y did find him once only in the 1851 census born about 1803 Filkins with his family which includes a son Theyer.
Is that who you are referring to when you said there were two of them?
Alan
I may have misled myself but a search o familysearch for theyer townsend, any event, place England 1790-1860 produces two death entries
theyer townsend
b 1809
d 1887 northleach
theyer Lawrence townsend (likely Roberts son)
b 1807
d1879 stratford on avon
mike
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Hi
Is this relevant to your search?
http://postimg.org/image/gyc2at1nj/
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I wondedr if the 1801 will mentioned by frothycoffee was the will of Thayer Townsend christened, painswick in 1725 according to familysearch, and whether he was gt/granfather of both families.
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The Will of Theyer Townsend of Steanbridge, Gloucestershire is a PCC will which can be viewed on Ancestry, or downloaded from The National Archives site:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/wills.htm
He directs that he should be buried at the church of St Michael Bassishaw, London. The burial register shows Theyer Townsend Esq. aged 75 buried 22 February 1802.
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Amongst the beneficiaries is a Robert Lawrence. Google books throws up this information from The History of the County of Gloucester Brought down to the year 1803 - Thomas Rudge
Stroud-end Tything. Steanbridge-house is the property and residence of Robert Laurence, A.M. who has taken the name of Townsend, to whom it came by decease of Theyer Townsend Esq. the late proprietor. It is situated within a mile of Painswick.
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A few more bits of information ...
Robert Lawrence TOWNSEND appears on the Clergy Database - Theyer TOWNSEND does not!
The Theyer TOWNSEND who died in Painswick in 1802 was the son of William TOWNSEND and Elizabeth THEYER (according to an online family tree).
If Robert Lawrence took the name TOWNSEND after his marriage to Anne, then it will be difficult to find the marriage because it will be recorded under a difference surname.
Pennie
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Hi,
Have a look at this entry, if you've not seen this before;
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/OXFORDSHIRE/2006-06/1151343826
Born Robert Lawrence s/o Robt. of Shurdington, Glos and assumed the additional name of Townsend
about 1795 and became rector of Alderton.
Alan
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A big thank you for all the help and "pointers". I'm working through trying to establish how the Townsend of Steanbridge/Painswick area are related to Theyer Townsend of Filkins. It would seem that the name Theyer was carried on by the family and is the strongest hint/nudge that they must somehow be related. My first foray into their world gives me a William Townsend marr. Elizabeth Theyer circa 1723 (no positive ident as to when and where). William has four children between 1724 - 1730 in Painswick (Henry Tyndal, William, Theyer & John).
A quote from British History Online "Paradise Farm, a gabled house of the later 17th century with a classical east front and suitable internal improvements added in the early 18th century when William Townsend lived there." Paradise is smaller than a hamlet and is near to Painswick. Same references mention an estate at Steanbridge, Slad. Perhaps Gloucester Records Office will have some further documents which will untangle the family tree.
As to why Robert Lawrence changed his name to Robert Lawrence Townsend is a question I may have to put to one side for a while. Anyway, I've now somewhere different to (re)-start my researches which hopefully will bear fruit.
So to sum up I've more to work on now than previously. Contacting this forum has made me revisit information I'd discarded and hopefully some connection will be made. It may well be I end up asking for help on the Painswick/Gloucestershire forum but To end on a pun...Hopefully it's no longer "Paradise Lost" but "Theyer Found".
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I can help you here and it is a confusing subject. The Theyer Townsend born Filkin was the seventh child of Rev Robert Lawrence who was left a very generous bequest by cousins and he added Townsend as a family name and his seventh child was name Theyer in honour of the benefactor,Not only did Rev Lawrence get money he also got estates in Painswick and, it would seem, Cowley.
The Theyer Lawrence Townsend born 1806 was baptised at Painswick 1807. He came to Chedworth in Gloucestershire after his mothers death in 1833 and bought Pinkwell Farm which is just south of the village. Of 12 children 6 are in a tomb in Chedworth churchyard next to their parents. I am sure this is enough to get you going. Do look on the Gloucestershire Archive database. Happy to help moreb if needed
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Well everyone, I still think that I am right about the Rev Robert Lawrence (later Townsend) being the father of Theyer Townsend later of Chedworth.
Observations:
Rev Robert and Mrs Ann Lawrence died at Bishops Cleeve 1830 1833 respectively. He was rector there and one of his sons seems to have continued there.
Interesting item in Gloucestershire Archive database about changing a trust concerning Ann Walbank and Robert Lawrence. Worth looking at should the archives ever open again to the public.
The 1807 christening took place in Painswick and the parents are resident at Steanbridge. It is only just over a year between birth and christening - this is not unknown especially if the child seemed healthy.
Theyer Townsend married in 1833 which is the year that his mother died (father died earlier) and I think he bought Pinkwell Farm in Chedworth about that time (using an inheritance maybe?). He is in Chedworth for the 1841 census and birthplace of children in later census adds to length of time at that place.
I am going to throw this recent discovery into the pot:
https://www.bookdepository.com/Reply-Mr-Borthwicks-Lectures-on-Colonial-Slavery-Theyer-Lawrence-Townsend/9781275811720?ref=grid-view&qid=1613136423784&sr=1-1
I have ordered the book - it is dated just before he got married.
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Just found the 1830 will ref prob 11/1774 of The Rev Robert Lawrence Doctor of Divinity. Its going to take some time to transcribe (4 hand written pages).
Robert Lawrence married Ann Walbank at Badgeworth, Glos 3 Nov 1795
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Theyer Townsend of Chedworth
Had a minor breakthrough on this subject yesterday. Found a newspaper article of 1870 reporting on an altercation between Theyer Townsend and Daniel Taylor - both farmers of Chedworth.
In court Daniel stated that Theyer Townsend was his uncle.
Daniel Taylor and family came from Withington which is where Theyer came from prior to his marriage.
There were Townsend in Withington at this time but , so far, I have drawn a blank on finding a Theyer.
Having now looked hard there is NO evidence that Theyer Townsend of Chedworth ever used the name Theyer Lawrence Townsend so I am now thinking that they were different men.
The search continues.
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see Newspaper article Wilts and Glos Standard 8th June 1872 Page 8 col 5 Mother and son charged with forgery
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Well it pays to check your Spam, where your responses have been filed! Apologies for being absent or at least inactive about the efforts being made regarding Theyer Townsend.
I have been down a rabbit hole with the "Lawrence-Townsends". I am still trying to sort out if Theyer T is also Theyer Lawrence T. So have been climbing around Theyer L.T. family tree. They were a wealthy lot who have left wills of varying wealth, many more questions. And of course their achievements at Oxford Universities are documented.
Still digging around but have established that the adopting of the name Townsend by Robert Lawrence was between his matriculation at Oriel college (Recorded then just Robert Lawrence) and his gaining his Doctorate at Worcester college 1815.
IF Theyer Lawrence is also Theyer Lawrence Townsend a per your first assumption I really do wonder how/why a man from a wealthy family with a B.A. from Worcester College, Oxford ended up a Yeoman farmer with no particular wealth or mention in later Lawrence-Townsend wills. Although having said that it family traditional hearsay and no evidence to back it up, that was that Theyer was "from Good Stock". Although his children's tomb at Chedworth is noteworthy and I have been told he was "surveyor of roads" for Chedworth and involved with Parish poor would indicate some "standing" in the community. That snippet I need to confiirm.
What a great find about Theyer Townsend and Daniel Taylor being referred to as his Uncle. Another lead to follow if I can stop my wanderings.
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Now convinced that TT of Chedworth NOT same as TLT.
In my latest find Chelt Examiner 5 Jun 1872
it very clearly states that Elizabeth Bayliss and Jesse Maisey were mother and son
and that they had attempted to forge the signature of Theyer Townsend uncle to Elizabeth and of Daniel Taylor her brother. There is also mention of a Sarah Ann Sheen I have her marriage cert)
So I conclude that we are looking for a marriage between a Taylor and a Townsend about 1800.
There is a marriage at Prestbury 9 Dec 1800 between William Taylor of Cheltenham to Ann Townsend of this parish but this needs further research.
In the Theyer Townsend Chedworth will of 1883 he gives money to the Chedworth Baptist Chapel and the Chedworth Congregational Chapel so there are non conformist leanings despite burial of self, wife and children in a C of e churchyard and marriage in a c of e church (not so unusual).
Daniel Taylor farmed Woodlands farm which is on the Chedworth border to Withington and is buried in Chedworth too.
Theyer farmed from Pinkwell (a small hamlet between Calmsden and Chedworth) - in 1842 he only owned about 12 acres of land which would of been small change to the Steanbridge family. I have transcribed the Rev Robert Lawrence will also found a history of Lawrence and Townsend families in a local paper.
So where do you want to go from here?
My interest is doing a study of the inhabitants of Chedworth tombs as a local history study - I am not really THAT worried about Theyer T roots but am curious. We have found a surprising amount out about Theyer from newspapers and studying Tythe Map etc.
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Theyer Lawrence Townsend buried Thoyer Laurence Townsend 17th Sep 1879 in Wootton Wawen, Warwickshire. So pretty conclusive Theyer T of Filkins/Chedworth is not the man I am researching. So of course the wealthy Lawrence-Townsends of Painswick are not related to "My Theyer". Finding a marriage of William Townsend of Painsworth (sic) to Elisabeth Chayer (sic) 29 Apr 1723 St Augustine, Watling Street, London, explains the Townsend and Theyer which caused so me much research and confusion. Calling a halt on them and going back to the very useful finds you have made
Are your newspaper references from Findmypast or the British newspaper archive? Looks like I will have to subscribe to one or the other to further my researches on my wife's GG Grandfather Theyer Townsend, or are your researches available somewhere?
David
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A very kind friend has extracted them from newspapers.
I have put them, and my study so far, into this one drive file for you to upload. my numbering of files helps me keep track on what I have looked at and used.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApwbLzeTjrzcnzGKDtOfc2cA3Zoo?e=HoLyi3
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Christmas comes early! Many thanks will have few hours to open and digest your gems.
Thank you for your kindness.
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Significant find:
Gloucester Journal Saturday 23 October 1847
Obituaries – October 15, at Chedworth, Mr. Daniel Townsend, aged 49, brother to Mr. Theyer Towsend, of the same place.
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Thanks xtrailisla,
Another lead to follow. Currently trying to establish the "how" of the relationship of Daniel Taylor who "assaulted" his Uncle Theyer Townsend, as per the news clipping you also found. I have found that Daniel's father married an Elizabeth Townsend, 6 March 1820 at Easton Grey, Wiltshire. Still working on that.
Also distracted by the 1841 census entry for Benjamin Taylor (Daniel's father) where other occupants are listed, John Townsend (Male Servant), Sarah (age 15yrs) and Charles Cuss (age 4mths). You may recall Theyer married and Elizabeth Cuss in 1833. Too much of a coincidence I think.
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Note in the Theyer will the fluidity of his christianity. Baptised children c of e, married c of e, buried c of e but left money to Baptist and Congregational Chapels.
I will be putting the study on www.chedworth.org.uk soon under history tag
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Daniel Townsend age 49 of Chedworth buried Withington
(Possible assoc) Daniel son of Daniel and Elizabeth Townsend baptised Stinchcombe 21 Jan 1798
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Significant find:
Gloucester Journal Saturday 23 October 1847
Obituaries – October 15, at Chedworth, Mr. Daniel Townsend, aged 49, brother to Mr. Theyer Towsend, of the same place.
Found His marriage to "Honor Yeates" 29 Dec 1842. Both parties omitted details of their respective Fathers.
Honor was widowed in 1847 and appears in the 51, 61 and 71 census returns for Chedworth. Looks like she ran the local shop until her death in 1877. Buried in Chedworth 16th Oct.
Her daughter Hannah is enumerated in 1871 as "schoolmistress".
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Good find if I may say so but what a shame it does not take you to the parents.
Theyer study now on village web site - free to download
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Hilcot is a tiny hamlet within the parish of Withington
Daniel appears to have been a tenant of Elwes (big cheese landowner) 1805 at Hilcot
was this a second marriage?
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No unfortunately. Certificate indicates he was a bachelor of full age. His marriage to Honor Yeates in 1842 is 4 years after the baptism in May 1838 of Eliza Townsend Yates. "Illegitimate daughter of Honor Yates" in Withington.
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Well they are being awkward are they not. So this confirms the intuition that Daniel and Theyer had Withington roots but does little to solve who their parents were. Damn. I am not very familiar with Withington parish records but that must be the place to look next when lock down allows. Good luck.