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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Nivekdrawoh on Saturday 18 January 14 15:02 GMT (UK)
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Charles Frederick Wilson B about c 1853 (don`t know where), he WED Elizabeth Mundy in SALFORD Manchester (UK). (Elizabeth`s mother was Margaret Mundy, B Ireland 1821) but Margaret had a son called Matthew Brien also born in Ireland. Margaret Mundy was a RYAN, and mother was Ann RYAN who was also IRISH.
Charles Frederick Wilson died between 1881 and 1891 presumably in Salford Manchester.
Can`t find his BIRTH or DEATH.
Are there any family members out there or anyone who has information ???
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What year did Charles Frederick Wilson marry Elizabeth Mundy in Salford???
I cannot find the marriage reg?
Suz
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Deaths
3Q 1881 WILSON Charles 28y Ashton 8d 321
1Q 1882 WILSON Charles 28 Todmorden 9a 174
4Q 1886 Wilson Charles Francis 33 West Derby 8b 313
1Q 1888 WILSON Charles 38 Salford 8d 116
Marriages 3Q 1878
Hornsby Elizabeth Salford 8d 75
Wilson Charles E Salford 8d 75
What occupation did Charles have? Cabinet maker?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQZ1-9T1
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Hello and welcome :)
I am just trying to work the family out. Do you have Elizabeth in 1871?
1861 2876/ 46/26
Margaret Mundy with children Matthew Brien 21 yrs; Elizabeth Mundy 8 yrs (born Liverpool) and Joseph Mundy 1 yr are living in Gorton
Where do the details re the marriage come from?
heywood
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1881
30 Factory Lane Salford
Margaret Mundy Head 63 widow
Joseph Mundy Son 21
Clara Mundy Daughter 17
Elizabeth Wilson Daughter married 28 born Stockport Cheshire
Marg Ellen Wilson Granddaughter 8 born Salford
John William Wilson Grandson 6 born Salford
Next door at 32 is Ann Ryan and family
3965/19/32
Heather
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CheshireBMD has Elizabeth Ann Mundy born Stockport 1853 mother's name Kelley ???
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Interesting find Heather :)
So ...
1871 4022/ 14/ 21
31 Factory Lane Salford
Margt Kelly 46 yrs Mangling b Ireland Co Kildare
Eliz Kelly 18 yrs Throstle Spinner b Stockport
Joseph Kelly 12 yrs b Gorton
Clara Kelly 8 yrs b Salford
Mary Welsh Lodger 60 yrs Parish relief b Ireland Q!ueens County
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John WILSON and Elizabeth A KELLY in 1871 at Manchester, St. John
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Thank you everyone, your replies greatly appreciated.!!!!!!
This is the mystery (which seems to puzzle you all also) and has bedeviled me for years, the absent Charles Frederick Wilson B abt 1852 ish.
Where does my information come from ? It is thus.....
1861 census I have Margaret Mundy in Gorton, with Matthew Brien b 1840 son to head age 20 Ireland (can`t find her as records are scant)
Elizabeth Mundy daughter age 8 b Stockport 1853 (who wed Charles Frederick Wilson)
Joseph Mundy son age 1 B Gorton Lancs
THEN
I find on 1881 census Salford 30 Factory Lane.
Margaret Mundy Head Widow b Ireland.
Joseph Mundy son 21 dyer Salford (although it said b Gorton in 1861)
Clara Mundy Dau 17 spinner Salford
ELIZABETH (nee Mundy) Wilson MARRIED 28 cott spinner b1853 Stockport.
Marg Ellen Grand daugh to head 8 b1873 Salford
John William Wilson Grand son to head 6 b1875Salford
1891 Census Salford
Elizabeth (nee Mundy) age 38 WIDOW head Shopkeeper b1853 (Salford but 1861 said Stockport)
Sarah Jane Wilson " 8 dau b1883 Salford
John William Wilson " 16 Son Circular sawyer? b 1875 Salford
Joseph Mndy Brother " 32 Machine Maker b1859 Salford
THE MYSTERY
I find no birth marriage or death for Charles Frederick Wilson b about C 1853????
Do not know place of BIRTH or DEATH.
Death must have been between 1883 and 1891. Why? because last child b1883 Sarah Jane (named a wilson, it could of course be presumptive as we know that although this child is named Wilson it may not be his child, but one assumes until proved wrong).
CFWilson is listed as a PLUMBER (maybe a journey man plumber so he was a mobile creature ???) on my G G father`s marriage certificate in 1894 ( a John William Wilson b 1875). but CF Wilson was NOT listed as dead, in father slot.
As plumbers in those days dealt with LEAD pipes etc, madness may be an occurrence, so I wonder if Charles Frederick Wilson was in an asylum (eg he was thought of as dead by Elizabeth, wife and stated so on census ???), and often the death was not recorded or the bodies were dumped in a mass grave after abuse.
JUST wondering if this was so, because I find no record of him...
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Also... Elizabeth Mundy wed a Charles Frederick Wilson around/before 1873 as their first child was Marg Ellen Wilson born in 1873. But who knows???? (can`t find the marriage certificate.
Also RYAN (surname) you mention, And Ann RYAN was living at 32 Factory Lane Salford NXT door to Elizabeth (nee Mundy ) Wilson b 1853, an ANN Ryan is listed, widow and head and mother in law, b Ireland... there is a Dennis Ryan Head, Mar and his daughter is Catherine Sently Marr..So don`t know if there is a link?
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1871
Margt Kelly 46 yrs Mangling b Ireland Co Kildare
Elizabeth Kelly 18 yrs Throstle Spinner b Stockport
Joseph Kelly 12 yrs b Gorton
Clara Kelly 8 yrs b Salford
1881
Margaret Mundy Head 63 widow
Joseph Mundy Son 21
Clara Mundy Daughter 17
Elizabeth Wilson Daughter married 28 born Stockport Cheshire
These look like the same family ???
What do you think?
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Hiya all have found Elizabeths second marriage
3rd April 1893 St Philip Salford Lancs
Groom -William Higson, 54 yrs Velvet Finisher
Address-39 James St
Father-John Higson, occ -Dyer
Bride-Elizabeth Wilson, 40, ,Housekeeper, widow
Address-27 George St
Father-William Mundy, occ-Tailor
Witnesses-Francis Sawyer and Clara Mundy
This ties in with census data
Welsh lady
Welsh lady
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John WILSON and Elizabeth A KELLY in 1871 at Manchester, St. John
I can't find any more details of this marriage online
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Given that your GG Grandfather was John William Wilson and that Sarah Jane was his sister, then I think that this 1891 census might be a better fit for this family.
Charles Wilson 43 Head Plumber b Salford
Martha 43 Wife b Manchester
John W 4 son b Beswick Printers Apprentice
Sarah F 4 b dau b Beswick, looking at the image I think this age is wrong and should be 11
Elizabeth 9 dau b Openshaw
Living at 19 Hewitt Street, Manchester
RG12; Piece 3177 Folio 123 Page 46
They are also at 19 Hewitt Street on the 1881 census
Charles Wilson 32 Plumber and Glazier and Gas Fitter
Martha 33
John W 6
Sarah Jane 11months
RG11 Piece 3908 Folio 18 Page
There doesn't seem to be much evidence of a Charles F marriage to Elizabeth Mundy/Kelly and I think that to be certain of his mother's name you really need to invest in the birth cert for John William and also try to find a marriage for Charles F and a Martha.
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There is a copy of a marriage on Family Search for a Sarah Jane Wilson
with father Charles F a plumber. Have a look at it, see what you think.
If you click on View document on the right hand side of the page you can see the full copy.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/233L-44R
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Still on Family Search this could possibly be John William's baptism.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NTT7-NZQ
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Hiya think you need to send for John William Wilsons birth cert to see what fathers name is on there.As at moment no sign of a marriage census data on Charles or a death for him.We know that Elizabeth and siblings were registered in births as Mundy.So Elizabeth should have married under the surname Mundy.However cant find a marriage of Charles Wilson to Elizabeth Mundy/Kelly or other surname.
Welsh lady
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IF I'm following the correct family then Charles is still living and on the 1901 census
10 Lamb Lane, North Manchester.
Charles 55 Plumber
Martha 56
Sarah J 21
Elizabeth 19
Son John William is now married and I'm assuming that you will have the census record for him and also his marriage.
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Hiya dont think this is right family.John William Wilson in 1881 is living with his mother Elizabeth Wilson and Grandmother Margaret Mundy in Salford see previous posts
Best Wishes
Welsh lady
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And this is why John William's birth cert would be a good idea.
There is only as far as I can see one marriage and that's for a John Wilson to Elizabeth Kelly 1871 at St John's Church,
Looking at a copy of that marriage on Ancestry Manchester Marriages.
They married Sept 1871 think it was the 1st but it's hard to read.
Elizabeth Ann Kelly 18 father William Kelly occupation Tailor which apart from her using Kelly instead of Mundy as her surname fits the second marriage details that you have found previously.
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Yes thats marriage found earlier and looks like the one I think fathers first names were wrong on marriage cert of John William Wilson .As we know mother is Elizabeth who was married to a Wilson then remarried Higson and John found on census with mother Elizabeth Mundy /Kelly.Birth cert needed to confirm father is John not Charles.
Welsh lady
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Hello again,
The finds by rolnora look to offer another choice for John William.
Who did he marry?
Do you have definite evidence that his mother was Elizabeth - other than censuses?
Heywood
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If you have John W in 1901 census, does his occupation tie in with 1891 and marriage certificate?
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Thank you Heatherjuile thanksyes, the 1881 is the right family
This is the mystery (which seems to puzzle you all also) and has bedeviled me for years, the absent Charles Frederick Wilson B abt 1852 ish.
Where does my information come from someone asked ? It is thus.....
1861 census I have Margaret Mundy in Gorton, with Matthew Brien b 1840 son to head age 20 Ireland (can`t find her as records are scant)
Elizabeth Mundy daughter age 8 b Stockport 1853 (who wed Charles Frederick Wilson)
Joseph Mundy son age 1 B Gorton Lancs
THEN
I find on 1881 census Salford 30 Factory Lane.
Margaret Mundy Head Widow b Ireland.
Joseph Mundy son 21 dyer Salford (although it said b Gorton in 1861)
Clara Mundy Dau 17 spinner Salford
ELIZABETH (nee Mundy) Wilson MARRIED 28 cott spinner b1853 Stockport.
Marg Ellen Grand daugh to head 8 b1873 Salford
John William Wilson Grand son to head 6 b1875Salford
1891 Census Salford
Elizabeth (nee Mundy) age 38 WIDOW head Shopkeeper b1853 (Salford but 1861 said Stockport)
Sarah Jane Wilson " 8 dau b1883 Salford
John William Wilson " 16 Son Circular sawyer? b 1875 Salford
Joseph Mndy Brother " 32 Machine Maker b1859 Salford
THE MYSTERY
I find no birth marriage or death for Charles Frederick Wilson b about C 1853?
Do not know place of BIRTH or DEATH.
Death must have been between 1883 and 1891. Why? because last child b1883 Sarah Jane (named a wilson, it could of course be presumptive as we know that although this child is named Wilson it may not be his child, but one assumes until proved wrong).
CFWilson is listed as a PLUMBER (maybe a journey man plumber so he was a mobile creature ) on my G G father`s marriage certificate in 1894 ( a John William Wilson b 1875). but CF Wilson was NOT listed as dead, in father slot.
As plumbers in those days dealt with LEAD pipes etc, madness may be an occurrence, so I wonder if Charles Frederick Wilson was in an asylum (eg he was thought of as dead by Elizabeth, wife and stated so on census ), and often the death was not recorded or the bodies were dumped in a mass grave after abuse.
JUST wondering if this was so, because I find no record of him...
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Thank you WELSH LADY
On my GG grandfather`s (eg GGrand, John William Wilson b 1875, who wed a hannah Hayes in South Crosland because she was pregnant) MARRAIGE Cert, the father of him (JWW) was Charles Frederick Wilson. John William Wilson (my ggrand) named his first son after him, Charles Frederick Wilson b1895 Manchester.
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I know that this is before John William Wilson was born but just in case:
There is a burial for
Charles Frederick Wilson on 20th April 1872 Philips Park Cemetery Manchester
There is a Samuel William Wilson in the same grave 14th August 1873
Heather
added: this Charles Frederick Wilson was 0
Samuel William Wilson was 0
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Thank you WELSH LADY your 2nd post re........
3rd April 1893 St Philip Salford Lancs
Groom -William Higson, 54 yrs Velvet Finisher
Address-39 James St
Father-John Higson, occ -Dyer
Bride-Elizabeth Wilson, 40, ,Housekeeper, widow
Address-27 George St
Father-William Mundy, occ-Tailor
Witnesses-Francis Sawyer and Clara Mundy
This ties in with census data[/size]
ReplyThis indeed is a NEW one totally to me and it seems to have links............
Reply... but in 1891 Census Elizabeth Wilson (nee Mundy) Head widow, was living at 23 George st Salford and was a shop keeper provisions, with son John William Wilson (my gggrandfather) age 16 circular sawyer looks like) JW.Wilson 1875 became a letter set printer, in Harpurhey M/C and was such in 1911 as wed to Hannah Wilson (neeHayes)
The Mystery is his father Charles Frederick Wilson B (whenever) c1852 ish, listed as plumber on Mar cert of son JW Wilson b 1875. EG one wonder was he living (bigamist) with two wives then? as someone suggests he was wed to someone other than Elizabeth Wilson (nee Mundy) B1853..................
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This looks interesting
Could this be the connection between the Kellys and the Wilsons?
Charles Frederick Wilson
marriage: 8 April 1858 Cathedral,Manchester,Lancashire,England
Ann Jane Kelly
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REPLY TO ROLNORA.
Thank you for your post RE....
Given that your GG Grandfather was John William Wilson and that Sarah Jane was his sister, then I think that this 1891 census might be a better fit for this family.
Charles Wilson 43 Head Plumber b Salford
Martha 43 Wife b Manchester
John W 4 son b Beswick Printers Apprentice
Sarah F 4 b dau b Beswick, looking at the image I think this age is wrong and should be 11
Elizabeth 9 dau b Openshaw
Living at 19 Hewitt Street, Manchester
RG12; Piece 3177 Folio 123 Page 46
They are also at 19 Hewitt Street on the 1881 census
Charles Wilson 32 Plumber and Glazier and Gas Fitter
Martha 33
John W 6
Sarah Jane 11months
RG11 Piece 3908 Folio 18 Page
There doesn't seem to be much evidence of a Charles F marriage to Elizabeth Mundy/Kelly and I think that to be certain of his mother's name you really need to invest in the birth cert for John William and also try to find a marriage for Charles F and a Martha.
MY REPLY
Totally confused now, and if what you have found Charles Frederick Wilson B Circ 1852 was a bigamist then......Because his wife at that stage in the game was Elizabeth Wilson (nee Mundy), and my maternal grandmother was named after her, Elizabeth b1896.
Elizabeth Mundy`s (b 1853) mother was Margaret Mundy, head widow B Ireland 1817), in 1881 Census, Margaret Mundy was living with Elizabeth Wilson (nee Mundy) in 1881 Factory Lane Salford. Elizabeth Wilson (nee Mundy) was married (not widowed at that stage), and had with her Marg EllenB1873 and my GGfather John William Wilson B1875...
Please, WHERE does Kelly enter the picture??????? no knowledge if this......
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CheshireBMD has Elizabeth Ann Mundy born Stockport 1853 mother's name Kelley ???
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Interesting find Heather :)
So ...
1871 4022/ 14/ 21
31 Factory Lane Salford
Margt Kelly 46 yrs Mangling b Ireland Co Kildare
Eliz Kelly 18 yrs Throstle Spinner b Stockport
Joseph Kelly 12 yrs b Gorton
Clara Kelly 8 yrs b Salford
Mary Welsh Lodger 60 yrs Parish relief b Ireland Q!ueens County
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Marriage: 3 May 1869, Christ Church, Bradford, Manchester
Charles Frederick WILSON , Plumber and gas fitter, to Martha Ellen Pemberton.
Image is on family search. This surely fits with the father on the marriage cert of John William.
Sorry can't figure out how to link!
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Here is the link
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12664-54824-71?cc=1788853&wc=M9W1-NXW:n1493389451
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Reply to Welsh Lady Re.... post ...
think you need to send for John William Wilsons birth cert to see what fathers name is on there.As at moment no sign of a marriage census data on Charles or a death for him.We know that Elizabeth and siblings were registered in births as Mundy.So Elizabeth should have married under the surname Mundy.However cant find a marriage of Charles Wilson to Elizabeth Mundy/Kelly or other surname.
Fathers name of Marr Cert Is Charles Frederick Wilson, and my JW Wilson b1875 manchester, named is first son after him ...
On 1881 census RG11/3965 Salford.32 factory Lane... Elizabeth nee Mundy is Wilson, and so are the children, John William b1875 and Marg Ellen.... Elizabeth lives with mother Margaret Mundy from Ireland...
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Reply to Heywood Thank you.....
Yes, mother to John William Wilson b 1875 was Elizabeth nee Mundy and he named my maternal grandmother after her.
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Reply to amram thank you...
Re.....post....
Marriage: 3 May 1869, Christ Church, Bradford, Manchester
Charles Frederick WILSON , Plumber and gas fitter, to Martha Ellen Pemberton.
Image is on family search. This surely fits with the father on the marriage cert of John William.
Sorry can't figure out how to link!Report to moderator....
Reply...... Martha Ellen Pemberton is not the wife, to my Charles Frederick Wilson, it is Elizabeth nee Mundy. b 1853...If Martha Ellen would be a wife, he may be a bigamist, and be working two families, hence his disappearance.
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Reply to Rolnora
Thank you....
Reply re...
Sarah Jane Wilson , with father Charles F, a plumber.....and she was marrying another WILSON
Have had a look at this marr cert now and the father is deceased which he would be if Elizabeth nee Mundy Wilson b 1853 was a widow from a Wilson in 1891, and a Sarah Jane b 1883 was the last child of Charles F Wilson, plumber. (so the deceased bit would FIT)
CF Wilson DIED between 1881 and 1891..presumably work related death.....
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Fathers name of Marr Cert Is Charles Frederick Wilson, and my JW Wilson b1875 manchester, named is first son after him ...
It is confusing as there are a couple of John William and then there are John Wilsons - of similar ages.
I asked you re the occupations on marriage etc and who your John married.
1901 has this family - I wonder is it yours? If not, it looks as though he is the son of Charles and Martha.
117 Conran Street Harpurhey
John W Wilson 26 yrs Letterpress Printer b Manchester
Hannah Wilson 25 yrs
Charles F Wilson 6 yrs
Elizabeth Wilson 4 yrs
Gladys Wilson 2 yrs
In 1891 Charles and Martha's son John W Wilson is 16 yrs and is a Printer's Apprentice.
Your John (Elizabeth Mundy) is a circular sawyer in 1891.
heywood
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Sarah Jane WILSON marriage mentioned above, took place in 1915.
Charles Frederick WILSON, plumber, death, most likely Jun 1905, age 55, Prestwich, 8d, 196
JW.Wilson 1875 became a letter set printer, in Harpurhey M/C and was such in 1911 as wed to Hannah Wilson (neeHayes)
1891 Census, provided by Rolnora:
Charles Wilson 43 Head Plumber b Salford
Martha 43 Wife b Manchester
John W 4 son b Beswick Printers Apprentice
Sarah F 4 b dau b Beswick, looking at the image I think this age is wrong and should be 11
Elizabeth 9 dau b Openshaw
Living at 19 Hewitt Street, Manchester
RG12; Piece 3177 Folio 123 Page 46
You have to stick to what you know for sure, through documentation. Perhaps your grandmother was named Elizabeth after her aunt.
If you do not have the birth certificate of your John William WILSON, you have no proof of his mother’s name.
Based on what you know for sure, J W Wilson’s father was Charles Frederick WILSON, plumber. John’s trade was the printing business.
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REPLY TO HEYWOOD
Thanking you...........
Reply to your post re......
It is confusing as there are a couple of John William and then there are John Wilsons - of similar ages.
I asked you re the occupations on marriage etc and who your John married.
1901 has this family - I wonder is it yours? If not, it looks as though he is the son of Charles and Martha.
117 Conran Street Harpurhey
John W Wilson 26 yrs Letterpress Printer b Manchester
Hannah Wilson 25 yrs
Charles F Wilson 6 yrs
Elizabeth Wilson 4 yrs
Gladys Wilson 2 yrs
In 1891 Charles and Martha's son John W Wilson is 16 yrs and is a Printer's Apprentice.
Your John (Elizabeth Mundy) is a circular sawyer in 1891.
This indeed is the correct family as per my previous post and so my John William Wilson B 1875 and the Charles Frederick Wilson above age 6 b1895 is my uncle......So not the father of JW but the CF wilson who was named AFTER the mysterious Charles Frederick Wilson Cir 1853.....who we can`t pin down and I have not sussed this out for nearly 25 years. There must be something really odd with this lot????
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WILSON is a common name, I know, I'm one!
Look over all your info from the beginning. Do you have the birth cert of your grandmother Elizabeth?
I cannot find the marriage you mention of J W Wilson to Hannah Hayes, do you have the certificate?
I am intrigued as you now.
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I am sorry- we are all repeating ourselves.
You have said that your John named his first son after Charles Frederick and his daughter after his mother, Elizabeth (Mundy).
It is good that we are looking at the correct family - Wilson and Hayes.
In 1891 Hannah Hayes is a servant in the Huddersfield area - where they married.
In 1881 Hannah Hayes is living in Harpurhey with her mother Elizabeth
If they were following a naming pattern, it would more than likely be first son after father's father and first daughter after mother's mother.
I would say that your John W is the son of Charles and Martha.
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Reply to amram
Thank you for this reply.....
Re....
WILSON is a common name, I know, I'm one!
Look over all your info from the beginning. Do you have the birth cert of your grandmother Elizabeth?
I cannot find the marriage you mention of J W Wilson to Hannah Hayes, do you have the certificate?
I am intrigued as you now.
Grandmother Elizabeth Wilson b 1896 cert yes..John William Wilson b 1875 father and Hannah Hayes mother.... These two JW and Hannah eloped from M/C to south crosland huddersfield because he JW Wilson got her with child and she went to her aunts Jane Sykes nee Hayes and to church there to get wed....in 1894Oct, and charles Frederick Wilson`s first child was B 1895..... John William Wilson b 1875 on his Marr Cert Names father as Charles Frederick Wilson Plumber.....
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apologies- some of my last post didn't make sense - goodness knows what happened ::) I have corrected it.
Have I got the wrong Hannah though?
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I think you are spot on , Heywood
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I think you are spot on , Heywood
Thanks.
I can see John W and Hannah's marriage which shows her father as Edwin. This fits with Edwin (born Huddersfield) and Elizabeth Hayes in Moston (next to Harpurhey) in 1871.
From 1911 indexes, the family look to be in Oldham by then.
Lancashire BMD has a birth for Edwin Wilson mother's maiden name Hayes.
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Hiya have you got documentation or certs, family bible that states Elizabeth Mundy is your Johns mother or did you trace back on census as weve all done that and sometimes gone wrong.
Recapping we know Elizabeth Mundy birth reg gives mothers maiden name as Kelly.1871 down as surname Kelly.1881 surname back to Mundy .However a likely marriage to John Wilson was found (Not Charles) they had a son John same name as yours and age however his occupation doesnt match the later census when your John is married.
However the other family found Charles Frederick Wilson and Martha , Fathers name and occupation corresponds with marriage cert and they also have a son John whos age and occupation matches your John when hes married
If you send for birth cert of John puzzle should be solved then
Welsh lady
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Thanks AMRAM
re your post eg...
I can see John W and Hannah's marriage which shows her father as Edwin. This fits with Edwin (born Huddersfield) and Elizabeth Hayes in Moston (next to Harpurhey) in 1871.
From 1911 indexes, the family look to be in Oldham by then.
Lancashire BMD has a birth for Edwin Wilson mother's maiden name Hayes.
Yes, Edwin Hayes b 1835 is father to Hannah Hayes b1876, who wed John William Wilson b1875...(whose father is still a mystery) and mother was Elizabeth Taylor (not THE famous elizabeth Taylor) b 10mar 1849 Kirkby Stephen, and she moved to M/C to work, she was a widow in 1881 in Prestwich M/C to where they had moved from Huddersfield. Hannah Hayesb1876 was orphaned her father Edwin Hayes b1835 huddersfield, died or was killed (not found out this mystery yet), then Elizabeth Taylor died...Edwin Hayes born huddersfield because his father (john Hayesb1799 in Worksop with wife Hannah Guest Hayes from tickhill) moved there.
John Hayes was a SCRIPTURE READER in manchester cathedral in 1861 (census hulme rg92888) does anyone know what that was, was it like the readers in a church now, or something else in 1861??????
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Reply to Welsh Lady
Thank you...
RE your post
have you got documentation or certs, family bible that states Elizabeth Mundy is your Johns mother or did you trace back on census as we've all done that and sometimes gone wrong.
Recapping we know Elizabeth Mundy birth reg gives mothers maiden name as Kelly.1871 down as surname Kelly.1881 surname back to Mundy .However a likely marriage to John Wilson was found (Not Charles) they had a son John same name as yours and age however his occupation doesnt match the later census when your John is married.
However the other family found Charles Frederick Wilson and Martha , Fathers name and occupation corresponds with marriage cert and they also have a son John whos age and occupation matches your John when hes married
If you send for birth cert of John puzzle should be solved then
Don`t know what is going on there with Elizabeth nee Mundy b 1853 now a wilson,1881 because on 1881 censusRG113965 Salford, she is with her mother Margaret Mundy widow Ireland, brother Joseph Mundy and Clara mundy....My ggrandfather is there too, John William Wilson b1875 Salford m/c age 6 with his sister Margt Ellen 1873 (she must have died young because he did not mention her...)
In 1861 Census gorton Margaret Mundy b 1821 Ireland is with her son MATHEW BRIEN age 21 b Ireland 1840, so she either had him before marriage and her MAIDEN name was BRIEN or she was wed `afore in Ireland to a Brien.
My grandmother Elizabeth Wilson B 1896 talked about a rouge called Mundy in the family, and used to tease her father John William Wilson b 1875 about the Irish leprechaun in his blood...
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Here's a reply re Scripture reader from Stan on another thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=1228823;topic=230678.0;last_msg=1237089
A Scripture Reader, who had to be a communicant of the Church of England for at least two years, was nominated by the minister of the parish to the bishop, to be examined as to his fitness for the office, either by the bishop himself or someone appointed for that purpose. On being approved the scripture reader was then appointed in writing by the bishop, and was under the control and direction of the glergyman who nominated him. It was the duty of the scripture reader to search out the most destitute and ignorant of the parishioners, and to read the Holy Scriptures from house to house. They were strictly prohibited from carrying, distributing, or reading from any book or publication except the Old and New Testament, the Book of Common Prayer, and any books sanctioned by the the incumbent. They were also strictly forbidden to preach anywhere.
The object of apppointing Scripture Readers was to give the clergy increased means of parochial efficiency.
Stan
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My ggrandfather is there too, John William Wilson b1875 Salford m/c age 6 with his sister Margt Ellen 1873 (she must have died young because he did not mention her
1891 3332/ 14/ 20
Margaret E Wilson 18 yrs born Salford is living in Castleton as a niece to a Cragg family. There is also an Ellen Wilson with them who would be Margaret's grandmother.
Going back through censuses, Ellen Wilson is married to Benjamin Wilson.
1861 2915/ 81/ 15
has Benjimin and Ellen with children including John aged 10 yrs.
Benjimin is a packer.
1871 4020/ 66/ 35
John Wilson 20 yrs born Salford is a lodger in Salford. He is a Packer
This would fit with the marriage details for Elizabeth Ann Killy (Kelly) and John Wilson, a Packer- his father being Benjamin, also a packer.
Margaret continues to live with the Cragg family and probate was granted to those family members in 1964.
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Hi
For future reference
The children buried in Philips Park Cemetery, reply number 25 Charles Frederick Wilson and Samuel William Wilson are buried with Samuel Pemberton, Thomas Horsfield and Sarah Jane Honfield
Heather
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I didn't want to leave Charles F Wilson when I did yesterday but needs must and all that.
Heywood and Amram you guys did a great job moving it all forward and making it all fit together.
The only thing that I want to add and then I'll leave it alone is that I think that the Charles Frederick Wilson who died 1871 was the son of Charles F and Martha. Image of his baptism can be found on Family Search.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F9MD-VL6
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Reply to Heywood stan
Thank you for this information,explains a lot...!!!!
Re our post
A Scripture Reader, who had to be a communicant of the Church of England for at least two years, was nominated by the minister of the parish to the bishop, to be examined as to his fitness for the office, either by the bishop himself or someone appointed for that purpose. On being approved the scripture reader was then appointed in writing by the bishop, and was under the control and direction of the glergyman who nominated him. It was the duty of the scripture reader to search out the most destitute and ignorant of the parishioners, and to read the Holy Scriptures from house to house. They were strictly prohibited from carrying, distributing, or reading from any book or publication except the Old and New Testament, the Book of Common Prayer, and any books sanctioned by the the incumbent. They were also strictly forbidden to preach anywhere.
My reply
So take it, this office in abt 1861 is in some ways the same as a reader today in the Anglican church...With certain restrictions lifted as today they can preach, and distribute the communion bread and wine,in a short service in homes and visit the sick in hospital. This John Hayes b1799, who eventually gravitated from Worksop via Huddersfield to Hulme welcom st M/C
(in 1851), who was a master cabinet maker in M/C and purported to be a devout (whatever that means) christian. So this would fit....Thank you....
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REPLY to Rolnora
Thank you
Re your post :-
I didn't want to leave Charles F Wilson when I did yesterday but needs must and all that.
Heywood and Amram you guys did a great job moving it all forward and making it all fit together.
The only thing that I want to add and then I'll leave it alone is that I think that the Charles Frederick Wilson who died 1871 was the son of Charles F and Martha. Image of his baptism can be found on Family Search.
My REPLY
Yes, thank you everyone for having a go at moving this forward, greatly appreciated everyones efforts !!!!!.
However, how can my Charles Frederick Wilson plumber, born about Cir 1853 (and no death (died between 1881 and 1891) or birth cert can be found)), who was supposed to be married to Elizabeth NEE Mundy, (family name) Wilson b1853 and records show Elizabeth nee Mundy with her son John William Wilson b 1875 M/C....
I am wondering why everyone is attempting to convince me MY Mystery Charles Frederick Wilson B Cir 1853 is married to A.. Martha (somebody) and not an Elizabeth Mundy, which records show.... What is everyone else observing that I am not, please, and why am I being channelled to a family which has coincidental names which I can`t make fit the case..???????? :-\
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Hello again,
I know we seem to be bombarding you with all this - sorry.
From my point, and I know that others see it the same way, it is based on the evidence of censuses and certificates.
If you have assumed that Elizabeth Mundy is your key ancestor because of the census and you do not have any other proof, then I would urge you to consider all we have written about here.
Working from your John William's marriage certificate:
* father's name
* occupation of father and John William
* censuses support all these and can then be used further back e.g CF's marriage
Additionally
* Elizabeth's spouse John Wilson can also be verified thro' census
* Elizabeth's daughter, Margaret Ellen lived a long life and can be identified in census etc
Regards
Heywood