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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: aucklandkirsty on Monday 13 January 14 08:41 GMT (UK)
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I am hoping that somebody can point me in the right direction to find Kirk Session Records for Kilmarnock? The problem is that I am not sure of the church that the records would be for? My husband’s 3 x great grandmother Esther Moffat (born 1840 in County Armagh) gave birth to an illegitimate daughter Elizabeth Moffat in February 1863 at 56 High Street, Kilmarnock. I am not sure if this was a private address or some sort of hospital? I am hoping that the Kirk Session Records may indicate who Elizabeth’s father was. If anyone could give any advice as to which particular church I should be looking at that would be wonderful!
Esther went on to marry John McNish in June 1864 at 12 Park Street, Kilmarnock. They were married “after banns, according to the forms of the Church of Scotland” by the Minister of Kilmarnock, but which Church would this have been? It doesn’t give a name of the church, only an address. Or was 12 Park Street their home, as both list their address as “Park Street”?
Thank you for any advice,
Kirsty in New Zealand
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Hi Kirsty,
In the time period, most couples were married at the home, more often, at the home of the bride.
The address will be correct.
A marriage ceremony within a church buiding did not become popular until the 20th century.
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Hi Kirsty,
Chances are that the baby Elizabeth Moffat was born at home.
High Street Kilmarnock was at that time an area of poor housing I believe.
Here is a picture of the street (I don't know the date, but it's old) - http://bmc.burnsmonumentcentre.co.uk/2012/09/
Have you looked for Esther on the 1861 Census?
As for Kirk Session records - there was a church , as you can see in the picture not a stone's throw from High Street - High Church as it was called.
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/234087/details/kilmarnock+soulis+street+old+high+kirk+and+kirkyard+with+soulis+monument/
But Kirk Session records are notoriously difficult to search. Here's a link to some info -
http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/101101.asp
Hope all this helps,
Good luck,
Looby :)
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Hi Kirsty
Just adding to all the good advice here :)
In 1891, there are at least 44 people all showing as residing at 12 Park Street Kilmarnock. So the address was certainly multi occupancy and not a church address as mentioned already.
Sadly, not sure what you are likely to find anything in Kirk Session minutes for this period and for Kilmarnock (if they have survived, they can only be viewed personally and won't be available to view online) ...but I never say never to anything really ;) Just unlikely unfortunately really.
From most people's experience of illegitimacy around this period and trying to trace further back, things to check are:
- Birth - sometimes there are notes on the l/h margin of the birth register (post 1855). These notes may indicate that the father's details may be known due to legal process by checking the register of corrected entries (RCE). If nothing shows, then there is likely no official note of potential father. Father's name was included only if he attended the Registrar to confirm he was father. If not, no father's details were included. Sometimes, illegitimate children used their reputed father's surname, so this can give clues to potential father. You don't mention this, so likely not in this case?
- Marriage - sometimes a child, if he/she knew the name of the reputed father, would include it here. However, this is also the time that many added ficticious names to cover their illigitimacy which then can complicate your research.
- Death - sometimes a name for a father can be added.
- Children's names - again, if someone knew father's name, it may come up and be used when naming of their children.
Be hopeful though...sometimes things pop up which help :)
Monica
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Hi Kirsty,
In the time period, most couples were married at the home, more often, at the home of the bride.
The address will be correct.
A marriage ceremony within a church buiding did not become popular until the 20th century.
Hi there, thank you for replying. I had never heard of couples marrying at home during this time period, I just assumed they were all married in the Church! You learn something everyday!
Thanks again,
Kirsty
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Hi Kirsty,
Chances are that the baby Elizabeth Moffat was born at home.
High Street Kilmarnock was at that time an area of poor housing I believe.
Here is a picture of the street (I don't know the date, but it's old) - http://bmc.burnsmonumentcentre.co.uk/2012/09/
Have you looked for Esther on the 1861 Census?
As for Kirk Session records - there was a church , as you can see in the picture not a stone's throw from High Street - High Church as it was called.
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/234087/details/kilmarnock+soulis+street+old+high+kirk+and+kirkyard+with+soulis+monument/
But Kirk Session records are notoriously difficult to search. Here's a link to some info -
http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/101101.asp
Hope all this helps,
Good luck,
Looby :)
Hi Looby,
Thank you for the reply and for the links to the information. It sounds about right that Esther would have been living in a poorer area. Her family seem to have arrived in Kilmarnock from Armagh in the late 1840s and by the time she marries in 1864 her parents (William and Elizabeth Moffat) had both passed away (according to the marriage certificate). I think I found Esther on the 1861 census, working as a domestic servant at The Black Bull Inn, Bridge Street, Galston. However I can't be sure because this Esther gives her birthplace as Kilmarnock but my Esther was born in Ireland. However on her NZ Death Certificate Esther's place of birth is also mentioned as Ayrshire, Scotland - so perhaps she had been living in Scotland since such a young age that she "forgot" that she was actually from Ireland!
I will have a look further into High Church - this sounds a possibility!
Thanks again for the reply - I really appreciate it.
Kirsty :)
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Hi Kirsty
Just adding to all the good advice here :)
In 1891, there are at least 44 people all showing as residing at 12 Park Street Kilmarnock. So the address was certainly multi occupancy and not a church address as mentioned already.
Sadly, not sure what you are likely to find anything in Kirk Session minutes for this period and for Kilmarnock (if they have survived, they can only be viewed personally and won't be available to view online) ...but I never say never to anything really ;) Just unlikely unfortunately really.
From most people's experience of illegitimacy around this period and trying to trace further back, things to check are:
- Birth - sometimes there are notes on the l/h margin of the birth register (post 1855). These notes may indicate that the father's details may be known due to legal process by checking the register of corrected entries (RCE). If nothing shows, then there is likely no official note of potential father. Father's name was included only if he attended the Registrar to confirm he was father. If not, no father's details were included. Sometimes, illegitimate children used their reputed father's surname, so this can give clues to potential father. You don't mention this, so likely not in this case?
- Marriage - sometimes a child, if he/she knew the name of the reputed father, would include it here. However, this is also the time that many added ficticious names to cover their illigitimacy which then can complicate your research.
- Death - sometimes a name for a father can be added.
- Children's names - again, if someone knew father's name, it may come up and be used when naming of their children.
Be hopeful though...sometimes things pop up which help :)
Monica
Hi Monica,
Thank you very much for the reply - it is most appreciated and is helping to really add context to the dates and addresses I have from the certificates etc.
Thank you also for the advice re the illegitimate search. There is nothing on Elizabeth Moffat's birth certificate to indicate who her father may be, frustratingly the other two illegitimate births on the same page as the certificate have the father's name listed too, but on Elizabeth's it is blank!
Also it is frustrating that Elizabeth's 1879 NZ marriage certificate does not list parents names for either party!
Strangely though when we found Elizabeth's gravestone last year it does give a previously unknown middle name of "Stewart" which we had attributed to it being Esther's mother Elizabeth's maiden name, but now I am wondering whether Mr Stewart was Elizabeth Moffat's father?
Anyway thank you once again for the reply and helpful tips!
Kirsty :)
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Hello again Kirsty,
I think Esther on the 1861 in Galston Ayrshire could well be the Esther you are researching.
If she was living in as a domestic servant it was probably her employer who provided her details to the enumerator and if he/she was unsure of Esther's place of birth they may just have said Ayrshire. If her family had been in Scotland for several years she could well have had a more local accent.
Or maybe Esther didn't want to give Ireland as her place of birth for some reason. :-\
And when she died whoever registered her death may have thought she was born in Ayrshire when in fact she had lived there prior to her emigrating (not unusual for relatives to make a mistake with the place of birth on death certs).
As for the middle name "Stewart" - yes it could have been a nod to her natural father but equally it could be that her maternal Grandmother was Elizabeth Stewart before she married William Moffat. Is Esther's mother's maiden name recorded on Esther's marriage cert?
I have found the family on the 1851 Census. Do you have that info? :)
BTW - I live in Ayrshire (not far from Galston). The Black Bull building is still standing although now sadly empty and boarded up - although it was still a pub right up to 4/5 years ago when it closed.
Here's an old photo- http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/collections/arts-crafts/arts/photography/photographic-views-of-kilmarnock-loudoun/bridge-street,-galston.aspx
Looby :)
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By 1863, the power of the kirk session had waned considerably, especially in industrial towns that attracted "incomers", so I doubt you'd find that she'd been brought before the kirk session. In any case, the kirk session minutes can only be researched at selected archive centres in Scotland: they are not online as they haven't yet been indexed.
After birth certificates were introduced in 1855, registrars were only allowed to include the father's name for an illegitimate child if the father attended the registration or gave his written permission. They were not allowed to take the mother's word for it!
Sometimes an illegitimate child names their father on their marriage certificate but sadly your ancestor hasn't. And yes, a middle name can sometimes be the father's surname, but a girl named Elizabeth Stewart Moffat was more likely to have been named for someone called Elizabeth Stewart. If Elizabeth was her mother's first daughter then it could well be that her grandmother's maiden name was Elizabeth Stewart.
I have ancestors who lived at High Street, Kilmarnock. Most of the houses seem to have been multi-tenanted, with families living in one or two rooms. And yes, back in 1863 Scotland both births and marriages would have taken place at home, and not in a hospital or church.
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Hello again Kirsty,
I think Esther on the 1861 in Galston Ayrshire could well be the Esther you are researching.
If she was living in as a domestic servant it was probably her employer who provided her details to the enumerator and if he/she was unsure of Esther's place of birth they may just have said Ayrshire. If her family had been in Scotland for several years she could well have had a more local accent.
Or maybe Esther didn't want to give Ireland as her place of birth for some reason. :-\
And when she died whoever registered her death may have thought she was born in Ayrshire when in fact she had lived there prior to her emigrating (not unusual for relatives to make a mistake with the place of birth on death certs).
As for the middle name "Stewart" - yes it could have been a nod to her natural father but equally it could be that her maternal Grandmother was Elizabeth Stewart before she married William Moffat. Is Esther's mother's maiden name recorded on Esther's marriage cert?
I have found the family on the 1851 Census. Do you have that info? :)
BTW - I live in Ayrshire (not far from Galston). The Black Bull building is still standing although now sadly empty and boarded up - although it was still a pub right up to 4/5 years ago when it closed.
Here's an old photo- http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/collections/arts-crafts/arts/photography/photographic-views-of-kilmarnock-loudoun/bridge-street,-galston.aspx
Looby :)
Hi Looby,
That makes sense that the employer wouldn't necessarily know where Esther was from, so I think I am inclined to think that this is her in the 1861 census.
Yes I have the 1851 census info thanks - but have been unable to find Esther's parents and siblings on the 1861 census, so I am assuming that both parents had passed away by 1861. I found a possible death for Esther's father William Moffat in September 1857 in Hurlow? Riccarton followed by burial at St Andrew's?, Kilmarnock. The writing is pretty hard to read on the certificate! I am not quite sure that this is my William Moffat though because it says he is "Married" and I have been unable to find any death for his wife Elizabeth Moffat (yes maiden surname Stewart is recorded on Esther's marriage certificate!) between September 1857 and 1861 and she doesn't appear on the 1861 census. Another mystery!
Thank you for the photo of the street with the Black Bull Inn - very interesting and it really is great to see the area where Esther would have lived and worked! Sad to hear that it is now boarded up though :(
Thanks again for the help and info!
Kirsty :)
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By 1863, the power of the kirk session had waned considerably, especially in industrial towns that attracted "incomers", so I doubt you'd find that she'd been brought before the kirk session. In any case, the kirk session minutes can only be researched at selected archive centres in Scotland: they are not online as they haven't yet been indexed.
After birth certificates were introduced in 1855, registrars were only allowed to include the father's name for an illegitimate child if the father attended the registration or gave his written permission. They were not allowed to take the mother's word for it!
Sometimes an illegitimate child names their father on their marriage certificate but sadly your ancestor hasn't. And yes, a middle name can sometimes be the father's surname, but a girl named Elizabeth Stewart Moffat was more likely to have been named for someone called Elizabeth Stewart. If Elizabeth was her mother's first daughter then it could well be that her grandmother's maiden name was Elizabeth Stewart.
I have ancestors who lived at High Street, Kilmarnock. Most of the houses seem to have been multi-tenanted, with families living in one or two rooms. And yes, back in 1863 Scotland both births and marriages would have taken place at home, and not in a hospital or church.
Hi there,
Thank you for the reply and information :)
Thinking about it again, I do think that Esther named her daughter Elizabeth after her own Mother, as her name was Elizabeth Stewart before she married Esther's father William Moffat (according to Esther's marriage cert).
It does seem a bit of a long shot that anything would be recorded in the Kirk Session regarding Esther, but if I manage to get to Scotland one day I will have a look just in case!
Thanks again :)
Kirsty
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Morning Kirsty,
Riccarton was a small village on the outskirts of Kilmarnock and is now an area of the town.
But I'm wondering if Hurlow is actually Hurlford?? This was another village outside Kilmarnock which came under The Parish of Riccarton....
Does the death cert for William say married or widowed?
Does his age tie in with 1851 Census?
What was his occupation?
And who registered his death?
Sorry for the questions but these things can help establish a connection. :)
St Andrews was a Church with an old churchyard in Kilmarnock http://www.flickr.com/photos/mccarthaighb/6856703446/
As you can read on the link your ancestor may be buried in the same area as a Kilmarnock celebrity and icon! ;D
If Elizabeth Moffat died before 1855 and compulsory registration there may be no record of her death unfortunately.
Back to Esther...do you know where John McNish was in 1861?
Looby :)
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Yes, I suspect it was Hurlford too. I notice William was a locomotive stoker in 1851, so Hurlford would make sense given the industries there.
For 1861, there's a family of Moffat girls in New Street, Kilmarnock headed by 13 year old Elizabeth, all listed as lodgers but no-one listed as who they are lodging with. I wonder if this could be the Elizabeth age 2 in 1851, and the twins were born later in 1851.
In 1861 there's a Sarah Moffat age 19 a domestic servant in Irvine, and you've found Esther/Ester in Galston, also a domestic servant. So it rather looks as if both William and Elizabeth had died by 1861.
On the death certificate you have for William, what does it say for his occupation and who was the informant?
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Hi again!
Thank you for all the help and suggestions :)
Yes on second look it does say "Hurlford", Riccarton as the place that William died. The details from the death cert say that he was an "Engineer", was "Married" and aged 40 years. The age is a little bit out as by 1857, (if the 1851 census age was correct) he should be 42. The informant on the certificate I think says Ezekiel Hewie.
The Engineer bit I guess fits with the Locomotive Stoker occupation given in the 1851 census and "Engine Driver" occupation given Esther's marriage certificate. The thing that puzzles me is that his marital status is given as married. If his wife Elizabeth died between 1857 and 1861 then there should be a death certificate for her, but I have not been able to find one. If she died before 1857 then shouldn't it say "widower" on the marriage certificate?
JMStrachan - the family of Moffat girls in New Street, Kilmarnock sounds interesting - I had not found them before. Frustrating that they dont say who they are lodging with though!
Looby - I haven't found John McNish on the 1861 census yet. He was born about 1842 in West Kilbride (according to the death notice in the NZ Herald). His parents were James McNish and Jane Caldwell - From John & Esther's marriage cert.
Kirsty :)
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Hi Kirsty,
So is that death your William?? :-\
I would have thought that the wife of the deceased William was still alive if he is recorded as married. Of course there could have been an error made... Normally on most Scottish death certs it would read something like-
William Moffat
husband (widower) of
Elizabeth Stewart
but 1857 is early in the compulsory registration system and things may gave been recorded a bit different.
His age is only slightly out :-\ and his occupation of Engineer could be railway connected.
Ezekiel Hewie or probably Howie could have been a friend/workmate or what I was hoping for a relative.
There is an Ezekiel and Rose Ann Howie on the 1861 Census in Kilmarnock , they are both Irish.
I couldn't find them in 1851 under Howie but I have found an Ezekiel and Rosana Hay in Kilmarnock, again both Irish. I was hoping to find a family relationship between this couple and your Moffats but no joy so far. It would be interesting to see if the Howies were living close to the Moffat sisters on the 1861 Census.
I think those sisters , found by JMStrachan- Elizabeth, Hannah and Margaret - are sisters of Esther and at that period of time could well have been living alone with the two working sisters financially supporting them.
Will have a look at the family again later when I have more time,
Looby :)
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Early post 1855 and the start of official registration....death certs only showed people as single, widowed or married :-\
The details from the death cert say that he was an "Engineer", was "Married" and aged 40 years.
Monica
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Hmmm, Ezekiel being Irish does sound sort of promising, but I can't see anyway that he could be related. Unless he was a brother-in-law of William. No relationship is given on the certificate however :( I'm guessing that Ezekiel was probably just a good friend of the family which is why he registered the death. Though I would have thought if he was a good friend of William's that he and his wife may have taken in the younger Moffat girls to look after them in the absence of any other family, rather than having them live alone. Perhaps I am just looking at this with modern eyes though!
I've just had another thought - perhaps William remarried between Elizabeth's death sometime after the 1851 census and before he died in 1857. Perhaps he was "married", just not to Elizabeth. This would explain why there was no death record for an Elizabeth Moffat between 1857 and 1861.
So many possibilities, this really is so interesting!
Kirsty :)