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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Natscatt on Monday 20 June 05 06:33 BST (UK)
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Can any one give me any help on finding more information on Charles Fisher born in 1818 in London ,his parents were Joseph and Ann....Joseph was a printer in Lincoln Square where the family lived.
thankyou Nat
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Hi Nat
What have you got, or what are you looking for - do you want marriage? census results and if so, what years?
Cheers Cougar
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Hi Cougar,
thankyou for your reply,I am looking for Joseph Fisher's birth and or parents and a marriage date for him and Ann.I don't know Ann's maiden name...sorry.I know they also had a daughter Annie born Abt. 1818 and a son John born Abt 1819.
I have Charles born 4 May 1817 New Square London.
Charles died 30 June 1880 in Tasmania.He had a trial on the 22 Oct 1833 in Essex (Colechester)quarter session.and was sent out to Australia on the "Lady Kennaway,arriving in 1835.
I would love to find out what happened to his parents and or his sibblings.
thankyou ,....Nat :)
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Hi
Am picking up a marriage of a Joseph Fisher to an Ann Mumford on the 24 Oct 1808 at Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London, England (IGI)- but of course, cannot tell if this is the correct one.
There is also a Joseph Fisher married to Ann Culverwell at Southwark, St Olave in 1813 (Pallots marriage index)- these appear to be the most likely at this stage.
Is this your Charles?
CHARLES BROWN FISHER
Birth: 14 MAR 1817
Christening: 04 MAY 1817 St Botolph Without Aldgate, London, London, England
None of the others are showing on the IGI.
On the 1861 census there is a John Fisher born 1819 in Islington a brickmaker and wife and family,
There is an interesting one in Cadogan Squm Chelsea, St Lukes.
who was born 1818 - property houses is listed as occupation but what caught my eye was the Sarah Culverhouse neice living with them - as in connection with the Ann Culverhill who married a Joseph Fisher - ? very similar names - a co-incidence?
Unfortunately all I am giving you is more questions to be followed up.
Am not picking up Joseph & Ann on the 1851 but I only have a partial index - someone else might be able to help.
Was Charles working???? in Essex when assume got himself into trouble - or you have no idea?
Cougar
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Hello Cougar,
yes you have the right Charles Brown Fisher (he is my GGGrandfather).I have been told he had a job before he was sent out as an "undergardener".
His father Joseph was a printer in New Square ,Lincoln Field.
There was a Printing firm there by the name of Brown ,which they may have Charles middle name from.
I have brother John being born in Workhouse in London,so maybe Joseph left Ann or died.??
I don't know how old his father might have been?
Thankyou so much for your help.
cheers Nat
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Hi Nat
This is the fourth attempt to reply to you - I keep having ideas to try, but then realise they won't solve your problem.
Was Ann in the workhouse with John?
Have you looked for a death for Joseph - you would have to assume though that John was the last born.
Also - don't suppose either of his siblings followed him out to Australia at a later date? What did he do in Tassy - did he settle down - go into business? Have you followed that line?
Cougar
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There is an unmarried 27 year old Annie Fisher in Gloucestershire, a teacher born London on the 1861 cen. Wonder when she married = couldn't find anything under Scurr.
None (Annie Fishers) if you enter 1815 +/- 5 years.
In the 1871 there is no William nor Ann/ie Scurr of the right age/combination - wonder if in Tas at that stage?
In 1881 there is a William Scurr in Boltby a retired carpenter - listed as widow aged 81. Just went back to 1871 - but his late wife was Margaret.
No Ann/ie though anywhere.
They too seem to be rather mysterious.
Cougar
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My grandmother; Ruth Grace Fisher married Joseph Charles Johnson. They lived at 32 Thornbury Road, Chapham Park SW London. I know nothing about them as they both died around 1898 in a London theatre fire. Can't seem to trace back past the birth of my mother Ivy Johnson in 1896 to these two.
Yet another Fisher for you to consider ...
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Nat
try the Tasmania Record Office first. I have a record for a convict transported in 1840 (CON 14) where his parents and siblings are named. Doesn't survive for all convicts but it is worth enquiring what they hold as Tasmanian convict records are detailed and worth finding out about.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda will look into it.
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Re the London theatre fire - The Royal Cambridge Music Hall at 136 Commercial Street burnt down in 1896. I've no idea about loss of life or when in 1896, but The Times would have covered the fire and that is indexed. In fact 'Palmers Index to The Times' would list any theatre fire with loss of life. Copies are at The National Archives (as well as microfilm of The Times) and the British Library newspaper section at Colindale. The index is also now on CD so major libraries probably hold it.
What was Joseph Charles Johnson's occupation? I can't see Ivy on the 1901 census. Did she have another name or any siblings?
Regards
Valda
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Hello
The fire at the Royal Cambridge Music Hall occurred on 28 Jan 1896 but no fatalities are mentioned in the report in The Times.
Regards
Jonahan
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Ref: Royal Cambridge fire. Coudn't be it. My mother was born Aug 3, 1896 and I have a Johnson family photo taken with her being held by her father. She looks about 2-3 years old at the time. Thanks for the info.
Does anyone know how to insert a photo into these messages?
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On my mother's birth certificate he is listed as a Publisher's Clerk.
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FreeBMD shows a near 100% coverage of civil registration deaths 1896-1903. No Joseph Charles Johnsons look likely and no Ruth Grace Johnsons at all. In fact no Ruth Grace deaths with any surname look a possibility.
I checked the address 32 Thornbury Road Clapham Park in 1891 and 1901 and also the whole of the piece number for Johnsons and Fishers - nothing showed.
Who was Ivy brought up by? I cannot find her birth registration for the date you have given registered either in Wandsworth or Lambeth registration districts. Was Ivy Johnson her full name?
Regards
Valda
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I also couldn't find any likely looking death registrations for Joseph and Ruth...or a marriage reg. either.
I think this could be Ivy's birth though?
Jun quarter 1896
Johnson Ivy Eleanor Wandsworth 1d 566
Best regards,
Emily
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I saw that registration but it would require her to be registered before she was born - 3rd August 1896. Unless there is any doubt about the year of birth I can't see a possibility for her?
There is an Ivy E. Johnson born Battersea 1896 (registration district also Wandsworth) on the 1901 census with her parents Henry and Elizabeth and 4 siblings.
Regards
Valda
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Oops yes..you're right....I was thinking of the quarter as Jun, jul, Aug ...instead of Apr, May, Jun which it actually is...
Hmm..strange...maybe it's been somehow mistranscribed on freeBMD?
Best regards,
Emily
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Ivy is in her father's arms.
(http://www.doinkadoink.com/images/johnson family.jpg)
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Ivy's birth certificate ...
(http://www.doinkadoink.com/images/ivy birth.jpg)
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From her birth certificvate Ivy was actually born in Hampstead, not in Clapham which was her father's residence when registering the birth in September. That does make a difference in searching for her on the 1901 census. I'm fairly sure this is her with her parents in the 1901 census. Same number of children as in the photograph who look to be the right ages and with a potential difference in ages between the parents, which also looks right from the evidence of the photograph.
1901 census RG13 714 folio 132
Gravesend and Milton Union Workhouse
Grace Johnson Inmate married 29 wife of Joseph (crossed through) born Farnham Surrey
Then another inmate and the rest of the family
Joseph Charles Johnson inmate married 43 clerk in shipping house born Hackney London
Joseph Herbert Johnson inmate 7 Born Islington London
Edith Mary Johnson inmate 5 born Islington London
Ivy Johnson inmate 3 born South Hampstead
Gladys Johnson inmate 1 born Lewisham Kent
Elsie Mary Johnson inmate 1 month born Gravesend Kent
Workhouse information can be a bit out particularly with ages.
From FreeBMD
Births
possibly
Johnson, Gladys Caroline F 1900 March Births Lewisham
Volume 1d page 1267
pretty certain
Johnson, Elsie Mary 1901 March Births Gravesend
volume 2a page 604
The only possibility for a Joseph, on earlier censuses, who fits for age (within two years) and place of birth is
1891 census
RG12 219 folio 104
11 Fearhamtone? Buildings St Andrew and St George London
Johnson, Joseph C 35 Hackney, London, Head Married Lawyer's clerk
Johnson, Amy S 31St Giles, London, Wife Married
Johnson, Charles J 10 St Giles, London, Son
Given the difference in ages it would not be surprising if Joseph had married before, but without comparing a marriage certificate of your known Joseph to this Joseph to see if the father's name and occupation compare you couldn't be sure it is the same man.
1881 census
RG11 686 folio 118
2 Surrey Rd, Camberwell, London
Jos. C. Johnson abt 1856 Hackney Head Married Confectioner
Amy S. Johnson abt 1861 Bloomsbury Wife Married
Chas. J. Johnson abt 1880 Bloomsbury Son
FreeBMD
Marriages Sep 1879
Baker Amy Stocks Westminster 1a 861
Johnson Joseph Charles Westminster 1a 861
I can't find Amy or her son on the 1901 census or another Joseph born Hackney circa 1858/6. Pre the 1881 census I can't find a Joseph born Hackney, though there are other candidates born in the Hackney vicinity. You would need the information from the marriage certificates to search for Joseph and his father on earlier censuses.
Ruth Grace Fisher or Grace Ruth Fisher is still somewhat of a mystery as there is nobody showing of that age and place of birth on the 1891 or 1881 censuses. Perhaps ordering Elsie Mary's birth certificate may be useful to compare that given to the information on Ivy Adelaide's about her mother.
Regards
Valda
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Wow you people are making such a great effort to help me in my quest. I am so grateful for this. I would never have been able to find the info you have. I have bookmarked the recommended sites and noted everything said here so that I may ponder over it at leisure.
I dont really have much more to offer by way of information except that I do have more photo's of people and places in and around Wales. Nothing from London. Its all a nagging mystery to me.
My fathers background is even worse. However, I will keep persisting and perhaps something will come to light as I ponder through the info and continue with my quest (the info about the workhouse seems likely and I will try to concentrate on that for awhile).
The majority of my family's historical records are based in Canada, in and around Toronto where my parents are interned. I live in Calgary Alberta which is two thousand miles away. So these things are not easy to research.
Thanks again, if there is any help I can give to all of you in Canada I will be glad to oblige.
Regards,
Roy
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Roy, I really think you should order the death certificates for the references found on your other thread regarding this family if you have a little money to spend on this... Might give a clue (informant's name etc.)
Tanja :)
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Tanja - I will do that. My daughter is coming to visit from Vancouver this weekend so I will be discussing all of this with her and probably together we will acquire as many certificates as we can. They should put some more light on the subject.
Thanks,
Roy
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This is a weblink to information on Gravesend workhouse
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Gravesend/Gravesend.html
Kent Record Office does appear to have records which cover this period for the workhouse, so you could try contacting them. The link on the website is down
This is their website
http://www.kent.gov.uk/e&l/artslib/ARCHIVES/archcks.html
Regards
Valda
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There was a Sarah Ann Fisher married William Scurr 1834, they sailed on the "John Renwick" to Holdfast Bay Feb 1837 departing from gravesend. They are listed as William Scurr, wife & 2 children though I have only ever found 1. William Scurr Jnr married Susanna Palmer 19 Sep 1867 Oatlands, Tasmania. William was a Shopkeeper in Tunbridge.