RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: g.crighton on Friday 10 January 14 14:01 GMT (UK)
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ATW born 1885 in Manchester England, married Kathleen Josephine Doherty in 1907, also in England.
Passenger Lists show Kathleen and their son Alfred Thomas Wilson born about 1907/8 heading for Montreal in 1911. Later listings of further trips suggest Toronto as their place of residence.
I have yet to find the family in the Canadian 1921 census.
Any information about this family would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Geoff Crighton
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Alfred Thomas or Thomas Alfred Wilson (1882/3) appears on border crossing and seems to make a few trips to Duluth Minnesota from 1907/1908
Elusive on the 1921 census so far :'(
Sandra
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Do you know the date of birth for Alfred (senior)? There is a death registration in British Columbia for an Alfred Thomas Wilson with the birth date listed as 27 Jul 1885 who died in Vancouver on 21 Oct 1953. Unfortunately the spaces for his parents' names are listed as "unknown" and it says he was a widowed. It does say he had been in BC and Canada for 46 years which would match an immigration year of about 1907. Some of the information may be out a little since the informant was not a family member (Veterans' Affairs). Here's the link in case is the right Alfred: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xjy/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xjy/)
One problem with this is there are Attestation Papers for an Alfred Wilson with a birthday of 27 Jul but his birth year is listed as 1875. His next-of-kin was his mother (transcribed as Mary but it looks like Mercy to me) and he was born in Yorkshire. It's possible this death registration could be for this Alfred or a different one.
Jacquie
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Hello Sandra
Thanks very much. I'll have a look at that. It did occur to me that the Wilsons might have been elsewhere in 1921. So far I've been unable to get a lead from Ancestry - such a tiresome name! I've looked in UK records in case they returned but so far haven't spotted them.
Alfred Thomas's Mother-in-law was Mary Alice Crighton, hence my interest. Her brother, John Crighton, emigrated to Toronto in 1912 so a connection with the Wilsons seems likely.
Best
Geoff Crighton
Your continuing interest would be appreciated.
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Hello Jacquie
Alfred senior was born 24 July 1885 in Manchester. His father was Thomas Wilson and mother, Mary Alice Crighton, my great aunt.
The Vancouver record looks interesting but the Yorkshire connection doesn't fit. Are there published birth records for Vancouver? A further child of Alfred and Kathleen would help.
Thanks for your interest, much appreciated.
Geoff Crighton
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Hi Geoff .....You can search the records at www.royalbc museum.bc.ca I also seen the death in 1953 but was not sure where Alfred was born
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Hello Rosie
Thanks. I'm looking more closely at the 1953 death of ATW in Vancouver. It indicates he was buried in Mount View Cemetery. An online index to the cemetery records doesn't show him though points out there errors and omissions. I'm trying to locate the custodians of the original registers. There is just a chance of a family grave which might tie things together.
Geoff
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The Vancouver record looks interesting but the Yorkshire connection doesn't fit. Are there published birth records for Vancouver? A further child of Alfred and Kathleen would help.
Birth registrations in BC are protected for 120 years after birth. They changed the rules a few years ago after births from 1903 had already been released.
I've found Attestation Papers for an Alfred Wilson with a birth date of 24 Jul 1884 who was born in Manchester and lists Mrs. M. Wilson of 145 Stockport(?) Road, Manchester as next-of-kin but he says he is not married. Here is a link to that entry: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xk2/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xk2/)
There is a link there for ordering a copy of the file if you wish.
Here is the link for the first page of the Attestation Papers for the Alfred Wilson born 27 Jul 1875:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xk1/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xk1/).
I'm wondering whether it's possible Kathleen and Alfred (junior) returned to England without Alfred (senior). With that in mind, here's a link to an entry from the 1921 Canada census for an Alfred Wilson in Vancouver whose age and immigration year matches up with what we found for your Alfred: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xk3/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xk3/)
Jacquie
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Geoff,
Is this the Wilson you are looking for? See Death Notification Card attached. Died 17-10-53, buried Mountain View Cemetery, Soldiers Plot, Blk 27, Plot 51, Lot 8.
http://tinyurl.com/m728xev
Cheers, Ken
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Geoff
My name is Terry Wilson. We live in Dwight Ontario Canada and I believe that Kathleen Josephine Doherty may be my grandmother.
We, my wife and I, have done a lot of research on her family and my mothers family but have been frustrated trying to find the roots on my fathers side. He never spoke about his back ground and only gave my sister a brief oral history before he passed in 1996. Since then we have found that much of what he told her was in fact wrong.
Here's what we have learned:
- Kathleen married Alfred Thomas Wilson in Jan. 1907
- My father, Alfred Thomas, was born May 1907 in Chorlton upon Medlock- County of Manchester
- Kathleen's father was Owen Doherty who resided in Manchester but was from Ireland
- Kathleen returned to Ireland sometime between 1909 and 1911 and we have found a Kathleen Josephine Doherty living in Belfast in 1911
- Per my father he and his mother immigrated to Montreal in 1911
- Kathleen married a Mr. Moore who then became my father's step dad.
- My father, who called himself Alfred Timothy Wilson, left home when he was 14 and from that point on had virtually no contact with his family.
- Dad married Helen Jean Baker in Montreal and had 3 children [ 2 boys and a girl ]
- He was a successful business man and we moved around Canada as he advanced in his career.
We did not know that his real name was Alfred Thomas until his death.
We thought that Kathleen had been born in Ireland but now think she was born in England of Irish parents.
I would appreciate any further info you may have or confirmation on the details that we have.
Thanks
Terry
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Geoff
It is wonderful to hear back from you and great that we appear to have a match. As I indicated, up until recently we had little or no knowledge about my fathers family so yes I would be willing to correspond privately about this and similar to you I have no experience with this system.
With some digging we did find a record of a John A. Crighton 1873-1950 buried in Mount Pleasant Cemetery, Toronto.
Terry
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Hello Terry
Yes, I'm aware of the cemetery record and also of a WWI Attestation Paper. Subscribers to RootsChat put me onto both - a wonderful family history resource, such viewers are amazingly helpful!
I'm afraid I'm a bit wooden when it comes to using this site. Can I suggest we both explore the site a bit more to see how we exchange "Personal Replies". I think it does have something to do with a minimum number of exchanges before we can use the facility. I'm sure we'll work it out.
In a few days time a researcher over here will be looking at the identity of Mrs M Crighton of Stockport Road, Manchester to see if it could be the mother of Alfred Thomas named in the Attestation Paper. Manchester Library has been shut for two years for refurbishment and re-opens on 22 March! (I don't live near Manchester so am paying for this little bit of research.)
Geoff
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PS
Sorry, I read that too quickly. My cemetery record is of a Alfred Thomas Wilson in Vancouver!
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Hello Terry
I think you have to make three postings before a personal reply can be sent. So if you send me one more I think we are OK.
Geoff
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Geoff
OK
Further info as we go-
- in 1911 ATW's family we think was living at 6 Buckley Square in Belfast.
- present there were his father, mother, Grandmother- Mary Alice Wilson [48] and Grandfather Owen Doherty 53.
Terry
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Hello Terry
We seem to have lost touch??
Geoff
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Thanks to all those who have helped with the elusive Alfred Thomas Wilson born in Manchester, UK in 1885. He married Kathleen (Katherine) Josephine Doherty in 1907 again, in Manchester. There was a son, also Alfred Thomas born 1907. The family emigrated to Ontario in 1911.
Since my first posting, I have been contacted by the son of Alfred Thomas junior but his family is very much in the dark about what happened to Alfred senior. Their information is that ATW and KJW separated and that KJW then married George Moore by whom she had three children. George is said to have already had three children of his own.
If any of this means anything to anyone looking in I'd be very pleased to hear from them.
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Sorry if nobody told you how to private message...an icon to the left of the person's reply/posting under your avatar or information & beside the wee head...
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My apologies to those I have confused with my George Moore posting. I seek:
1. The place and date of death of Alfred Thomas Wilson, bn, Manchester, England 24 July 1885.
2. The place and death of his wife Kathleen Josephine Doherty, bn, Manchester, England, 6 Jan 1888.
They married in Manchester 12 January 1907. They had a son ,also Alfred Thomas, bn, Manchester, 7 May 1907. The family emigrated, arriving Quebec 15 September 1911.
Nothing further is known of ATW senior and wife Kathleen.
A descendant of ATW junior has no information either, save that it is thought Kathleen later married (or lived with) a George Moore by whom she had three children.
Anyone researching Moore in Canada may perhaps be able to help!!
Thank you to all who have tried to help with this tricky item. I have commissioned some research in Manchester and await the results. This relates to the identity of a Mrs M Wilson of Stockport Road, Manchester named in a Canadian WWI Attestation Paper as next of kin of a possible ATW. senior.
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Hello geoff,
It is always harder to locate ancestors with a recent century, and the newer privacy laws make it harder. One also has to consider that some people did not want to be found. In those days divorce was still often overlooked and remarriage not out of the question.
Have you tried newspapers? I had thought Toronto Star's Pages of the past database had a more direct way to search obits and births but it seems rather tight ...maybe someone can give you advice on how to use it...?
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/advancedsearch.html
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Alfred and Kathleen Wilson continue to elude my efforts to find them.
Research in Manchester, England has failed to find a Mrs M Wilson of Stockport Road, Manchester given as next of kin on the attestation paper of Alfred Wilson in 1914. The attestation gives a d.o.b. of 24 July 1884; "my" ATW was born 24 July 1885, son of Mary Alice Wilson. The attestation also states ATW to be unmarried. Despite the discrepancies, this document is quite a good fit.
It is also the case that this soldier appears to be the same man buried in Mount View Cemetery, Vancouver. A photo of his gravestone refers to him as being a Private in the 7th Battalion, CEF. The attestation paper also refers to the 7th Battalion.
The BC Archives lists this death on 17 October 1953, aged 67, in Vancouver and their microfilm is B13217. Is there some very kind soul who visits the BC Archives regularly who would be willing to do me a look-up please?
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That death cert was given to you by jacquie ....here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673458.msg5185744#msg5185744
She found the CEF with Manchester birth later here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673458.msg5186203#msg5186203
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This should take you to the proper papers ..I hate those new databases...they used to be great! Now they keep updating and messing them up.
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=318087
You may want to send for these papers if you think it is the right person...Sometimes they were tracked by the VAC up to their place of death...Maybe someone can also follow his ship entry after the war... he may be headed somewhere that would clue us in
to order his military papers
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/canadian-expeditionary-force.aspx#e
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Thanks very much for all that. I had seen the attestation paper (page 2 of which gives the 7th Battalion reference). I had not realised that a Service Record is also available. Clearly, I should try to get hold of it.
Apologies to Jacquie - I had not appreciated she had viewed the actual death entry. (Canadian records are a whole new territory for me.)
If the ATW of the attestation paper is the right man, then it would seem his marriage to Kathleen had come to an end by the outbreak of war. Why else would he say he was single and give (perhaps) his mother's name as next of kin?
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He may well have been in British Columbia prior to his signup, as my Grandfather signed up in Valcartier as well, part of the 7th Battalion - 1st British Columbia regiment . The battalion returned to Canada on 18 April 1919. I sent for his papers but they end the following year as after he was wounded he joined The Gordon Highlanders as a commissioned officer and then married in the U.K....( He was Scottish) and they never traced his actions beyond that...although his year and place of death in Canada is still noted on his papers. A short military career does not cost much...a small will, and medical history, etc. will be about it...No actual war /military info other than a change of battallion etc, which happens often
The descendants from Ontario can look into these files for free if they can get down to the archives.!!!! Or you can wait a year or two and view them for free online once they have all been digitized...I only just read that they are doing them all...
Oh, that will frost people who had to pay for huge files. Just put the service number in and choose yes in digitized area...But being that he is a "W" doubt they'd start with the last bit of the alphabet...
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/search.aspx
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Just checked and my grandfather signed up in Valcartier on the same day...
The 7th then embarked for Britain on 28 September 1914... It disembarked in France on 15 February 1915, where it fought as part of the 2nd Infantry Brigade, 1st Canadian Division in France and Flanders until the end of the war.42 The battalion was disbanded on 30 August 1920
My grandfather trained with the 104th in B.C, then became 7th, was moved to the 30th reserve at some stage
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/ol-lo/vol-tom-3/par1/arm-bli/BCR-eng.asp
7th Battalion-2nd Infantry Brigade British Columbia Regiment - were the first contingent overseas, Alfred was in "D" company, mine in "H"
https://archive.org/stream/listofofficersme00greauoft#page/92/mode/2up
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How very interesting. Thank you very much for that. Bit of a coincidence then?
I await the return of my Wilson contact from holiday but will enquire where in Canada he was born. If his own father, ATW junior, remained in Ontario it perhaps suggests that Kathleen remained there too. Allegedly ATW junior left home at 14 - perhaps it was an unhappy home.
In England at this time, divorce was pretty much unheard of amongst the working classes. I imagine it was the same in Canada? The chances are that ATW senior did not divorce Kathleen but is there a simple way of testing that? If we assume the ATW in Vancouver is our man then given that he died in 1953, only then (without a divorce) would Kathleen have been free to remarry. By then she was in her sixties! The notion that she married George Moore and had three children by him looks a bit thin in the absence of a divorce. It seems more likely they merely lived together. Kathleen was of RC parents.
Lots of questions! It may be my Wilson contact is sitting on a clue without realising it. We'll see!
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I have ordered Alfred Wilson's service record.
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Oh, good for you...Hopefully the correct one...there may be better info on his mother's name if a mini will with an updated location, something in the pay information, if he had it sent or willed to her... His discharge may include place of residence...Finger's crossed for you!
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Thanks. Love the idea of a possible Will. I've rowed the boat out and sought the record as urgent. If it runs to 100 pages I'll be in big trouble!!!
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Yeah, there may not be much as Alfred seems to have been estranged from his wife & son.....but if his mum was still alive during the war and she looks to have outlived it... then finger's crossed I hope that the other address wasn't a permanent one and she's relocated to a place you can find ....with a full name for her...it should be repeated several times within the files...
Google maps didn't pinpoint the actual building for me but that may have been an apartment or divided suites in a home...
I looked through divorces using various spellings and partial names and they didn't turn up...
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/vital-statistics-births-marriages-deaths/divorce-1841-1968/Pages/search.aspx
However if the first part of the name is wrong, then I can't find it anymore...We could once use *lson and *fred but that no longer works...How that is their version of new and improved I'll never know??? it worked perfectly before the latest changes... :P :P :P
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Thanks again for that. Yes, the whole case now seems to hang on the Service Record and whether my newly found Wilson contact is unknowingly sitting on a vital clue.
Work on the Manchester address revealed no Wilsons or other recognisable names. In one year the building was empty! People here moved around a great deal in those days, especially within urban areas.
As you have probably gathered, I'm writing a book. Not to find ATW senior and his wife will leave a large hole in the relevant chapter but at least the grandson should be able to write me something about his own life and that of his parents! Making adequate progress with the book caused me to seek the Service Record urgently - otherwise I might have waited three months for it. My target for handover to the publisher is October. Lots to do!!
I still need to look at the Toronto Star when I get a few free hours!
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If this works out for you, all those who answered on page one had already found the relevant information for your search for Alfred! I hadn't noticed back then that the death card posted by Ken MacLean was VAC and that it even had the matching service number for the Alfred from Manchester...
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I have had a preliminary look at ATW senior's Service Record; it neither rules him in nor out as the husband of Kathleen Wilson from whom he may have been estranged.
It is clear he is the same man that died in Vancouver in 1953 and appears to have been living there at the outbreak of WWI. He can be found at 1247 Homer Street, Vancouver in 1921 and this address appears in the Service Record; I cannot make out his occupation though the index gives "hostina keeper". There is no sign of a Kathleen Wilson nor of ATW junior in Vancouver.
The Service Record provides two new addresses in Manchester to try: 4 Shakespeare Row, Stockport Rd, Ardwick, and 12 Thorpe Street, Aspley Grove, off Stockport Rd, Ardwick. Neither is familiar to me but I will check them out.
There is a reference to Mrs Mary A Wilson, mother, and also to the dependant sailing to Canada apparently in 1919. I can't see her in the sailings at the moment.
This remains tantalising!
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Hello everyone. I have been following this thread with interest and have a few comments/ questions.
In the 1921 Canada census, I think Alfred's work might be Plasterer's Helper.
Have you looked at the image of the 1911 UK census with the Wilson household? I can't comment here due to RC rules but using what is available for free, there are only 3 Wilsons in the household: young Alfred Thomas age 3, Kathleen Josephine age 23, and Mary Alice age 68. They are living in Chorlton Lancashire, not Belfast as was mentioned in an earlier post.
Also, have you seen the original image of the passenger list with Kathleen and young Alfred? It appears to me that someone may have written widow for Kathleen. This is written over what would have originally been written, presumably by the person who conducted the immigration interview?
I think the absence of Alfred from the 1911 household and the possible designation of widow for Kathleen in the passenger list might lend some credence to the estrangement theory. If Alfred was already in Canada and she was coming to join him, it would normally indicate that she was going to join her husband, if I remember correctly.
I haven't been able to find Kathleen or young Alfred in the 1921 census either.
Anyway, a little food for thought.
PB
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I'm very grateful for all the interest in this puzzle.
Thanks, PB, for the thoughts on ATW's occupation. Certainly that would tie in with "labourer" as we see elsewhere.
The correction carried out to Kathleen's entry in the 1911 passenger list could be "widow"; it might even be "wife" or indeed "single".
Certainly the 1911 UK census entry is Manchester not Belfast. It's Kathleen who signs the completed census form surely indicating ATW was not present on census night. So, was he in Canada, or on his way there, or dead? I've had a look at the UK death indexes 1910 plus or minus five years for Manchester but see no entry.
The Canadian Attestation Paper and Service record show that particular AW to have been in the army before (or so it says). Alas, there is no surviving Service Record for him over here in the UK.
All in all, this is a tough nut to crack. I'll pursue the new Manchester addresses and await the return from holiday of ATW's grandson to see if he might just have a clue that has been overlooked. He has told me that his own father (ATW junior) left home when he was 14; surely he must know just a little bit more? I can but hope. If ATW junior left home when he was 14 it may well explain how difficult it is to spot him and his mother in the 1921 census.
Unhappily the mysteries of the past cannot always be unravelled! I'm not quite ready to give in just yet!
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There has been a little bit of movement on the mystery of what became of Alfred Thomas Wilson senior and his wife Kathleen.
The WWI Service Record remains inconclusive but cannot yet be ruled out. I have, therefore, taken an interest in the family story that Kathleen and ATW senior apparently separated after which Kathleen is thought to have made a new life for herself with George Moore. Could descendants of that couple (thought to be three children) solve the riddle?
The Grandson of ATW believes his own father, ATW junior, attended the funeral of his mother, Kathleen, in Montreal in the early 1960s. This prompted me to look further for the couple in the 1921 census. There is an entry for KATHELEEN MORE, born 1889 living with "husband" George More at 55 Canning in Quebec. Not everything fits but I note she states she is RC which is certainly correct.
I think this is a promising lead. Is there anyone out there who can help a mere Englishman to take this forward please? Is there an easy way to find Kathleen's death and perhaps next of kin?
I'd be most grateful for any help with this.
Geoff
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Not sure if you found this as they had the next page way off in timbucktooo ...Looks to be the correct family as Alfred age 14 is on the next page as More, with the actual More children... Could any or all of these younger children belong to Kathleen? I also wonder if Kathleen's info was partially mixed up with George's or if she just fibbed about her ancestry.
Alfred More 14
Wilson More 12 ( Hmmmm?)
William More 6
Beatrice More 5
Clarence More 3
May More 1
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z1w/
Lovell's directory for1920-1921 has: Geo Moore Milk Driver 55 canning
http://bibnum2.bnquebec.ca/bna/lovell/index.html
Use : Série principale (1842-1977) then you can cross reference street or alphabetical listings
Or for just the surname listings and year , this is a shortcut http://stevemorse.org/montreal/montreal.html
I think they were only at 55 Canning that one year. He appears to be at 172a Canning the next few years, a milk driver...as Moore...and later becomes a civic employee, and then a senior emplyee at Dominion Text - living at 608 Canning nearer the mid century
I found no evidence of her under Doherty or Willson/Wilson, but you may have better luck...
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Not that it helps as Wilson is likely George's son from first marriage but this may be his marriage
Wilson James Moore & Myrtle Mathilde Chestmore marriage 1837 Montreal Quebec, if anyone wants to look onto it, as I can't see who the parents are. ( If correct lad then wife's actual surname may have been Chisamore...which reminds me, you could contact the paper to see if they have a database to search for Kathleen's death in the 60's
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/montrealgazette/obituary.aspx?n=myrtle-moore&pid=157282666
also if that is the correct family they may have some memory of Kathleen...mind you, if that was he, that marriage seems to not name children
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Just found on Google maps that this church is minutes away from where they lived
http://www.diocesemontreal.org/en/the-church-in-montreal/our-churches/our-parishes/paroisse/saint-anthony-of-padua.html
Mind you if he was Irish he may have preferred to worship elsewhere.
http://www.pbalkcom.com/valcartier/Research%20Guides/irish_catholic_churches_in_q.htm
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Not that it helps as Wilson is likely George's son from first marriage but this may be his marriage
Wilson James Moore & Myrtle Mathilde Chestmore marriage 1837 Montreal Quebec, if anyone wants to look onto it, as I can't see who the parents are. ( If correct lad then wife's actual surname may have been Chisamore
The marriage entry in the Drouin Collection gives Wilson Moore's parents as George Moore and Helen Rowe. They were married 27 Mar 1937. You are correct about Myrtle's surname being Chisamore. They were married in the United Church Calvin Westminster parish.
Jacquie
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Wonderful replies, thank you.
There's quite a lot to follow up but it should now prove possible to find living descendants of this family. I will post progress!
Geoff
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The latest information to come in from RootsChat has enabled me to speak this afternoon to a descendant of the Moore family in Montreal.
She is 90 years old and very willing to do all she can to help. It seems the Moore line is close to extinction! I have agreed to write to her setting things out so that she can consider how best to help. She knows of Kathleen Wilson's place of burial in Montreal and has a photograph of her. As I feared she knows nothing of Alfred Thomas Wilson but I'm truly delighted that part of the mystery will shortly be solved.
My thanks to the many people who have contributed to this research without which there could not have been such an exciting outcome.
Thanks and good wishes,
Geoff
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Wow! How exciting! It is always so gratifying to learn that a connection has been made. Thanks for letting us know.
PB
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Yay, Canada Board, you are awesome! Well, all the boards are, and we are too. ;D
Best wishes to you Geoff, Terry, and the Moore family...Glad a connection was made. J.J.