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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Oxfordshire => Topic started by: dragonlady403 on Thursday 09 January 14 23:36 GMT (UK)
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Good day to you all. I have been told on good authority that there are "... some very clever people on this site who are willing to share their knowledge and expertise". So I come pleading for help:
I have spent the past few months researching a specific branch of our tree. Due to a fair bit of active subterfuge on the part of some of my ancestors - it has taken this long to even identify who my great grandfather was! While I have located a couple of potentials, nothing has been concrete enough for me to feel confident in the information. The reality is, we know very little about him despite all our efforts.
Charles Hatter was born in England (his probate docs say in Oxford but I am not convinced this is correct). Based on his stated age at death i.e. 78 in 1925, his dob should be around 1847. We know he was an ag labourer, we know he was in New Zealand by 1876 because he married Janet Ainslie Messer in Otago, New Zealand. I have a fair bit of information on him whilst in NZ, but have been unable to figure out how he got there, when, why, or where he came from.
There is a Charles Hatter in the Devizes Wiltshire area, who had a brother Henry (recently I located a probate reference to an Alfred Henry Hatter in NZ but have been unable to find probate records for him.. another work in progress). The Wilts family seems plausible (aside from the Oxford ref in Charles' probate docs), but I think there are too many inconsistencies to be confident in it.
I have spent countless hours scanning ship passenger lists for all NZ harbours, but to no avail.
If anyone could assist me in figuring out how Charles ended up in NZ, where he came from I would be MOST grateful!! Thanks in advance for any assistance/guidance provided.
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There only seem to be 2 Charles Hatter births registered at about the right time:-
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl (http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl)
The Devizes one matches the date pretty much spot on.
Note that where someone was born and where their birth was registered, are not necessarily the same thing. A mother might give birth to a child while living with her mother and then move somewhere slightly different before registering the birth. Devizes is only 30 miles from Oxfordshire so it is possible that the Chas Hatter registered in Devizes was born in Oxon.
re. Immigration records they only really start in the late 1800s. Someone more knowledgeable may know the exact dates.
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Welcome to Rootschat.
So there is no extra info on his NZ Marriage or Death Certs?
Trish :)
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Note that where someone was born and where their birth was registered, are not necessarily the same thing. A mother might give birth to a child while living with her mother and then move somewhere slightly different before registering the birth. Devizes is only 30 miles from Oxfordshire so it is possible that the Chas Hatter registered in Devizes was born in Oxon.
Sorry! That's completely wrong! ;D
A birth MUST be registered in the Registration District in which the birth took place.
If a birth is registered in a different district, then details are sent to the correct district, so that the records are correct.
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Agree with KGarrad, registration will be place where the child was born.
Here is the Wiltshire one, on 1851
Westbrook Green, Bromham, Wiltshire
Edmond 28 farmer 2 acres
Elizabeth 28
Charles 2
Henry 7 mths all bn Bromham
Abigail Pearce 14 visitor bn Heddington
Next door
John Hatter 46 ag lab
Jane 32
Jane 1 all bn Bromham
Bromham is in Devizes Reg District
Quite probable if he emigrated fairly young, and was probably uneducated, he never knew what county Bromham was in!
By the time probate was dealt with ( I believe that is where you said Oxfordshire was mentioned) presumably he was dead, and whoever filled it in may have just known what he had spoken of, coming from that general part of England, and guessed Oxfordshire.
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Likely death for his dad
Oct/Nov/Dec 1857
Devizes 5a 59
Edmund Hatter
And a possible for Mum
Jul/Aug/Sep 1859
Devizes 5a 60
Elizabeth Hatter
No ages given at death, so death cert or burial entry in PRs would be needed to confirm if this is them.
So maybe, if orphaned by age of 10, that may have prompted his decision to emigrate. Who knows.
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In 1861, John and Jane Hatter (the neighbours from 1851) are still ag labs in the village of Bromham, but now have alarge family of their own, and dont appear to have taken Charles and Henry in.
Also in the village are a William and Winford Hatter, also an ag lab, with a largefamily.
Cant see ( yet) where Charles and Henry are in 1861
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Looks as if Henry stays in tbe area
Death
Ap/may/jun 1906
Devizes ref 5a 55
Henry Hatter age 55
Probate index entry
Henry Hatter of
Horsepool, Bromham, Wiltshire, army pensioner, died 9 May 1906 probate to Jane, widow.
(No nearer, yet, discovering if this is the right family, but nothing (yet) to rule it out!)
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Aha, think I have found the orphaned Charles and Henry in 1861
RG 9 1292 120 20
Bromham, Wiltshire
William Cottle 31 ag lab bn Melksham
Mary 32 wife bn Stockley
Charles Hatter 12 relative bn Westbrook
Henry Hatter 11 relative bn Westbrook
Mary Hatter 3 relative bn Westbrook
Looks like they had a little sister, bn after 1851 census but before parents died.
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By 1871, William and Mary Cottle have children of their own
No sign of Charles, Henry or Mary Hatter
I guess they are off making a life of their own - Henry in the army? And Charles, well maybe emigrating!
Still no proof this is 'your' Charles, but the life of this Charles certainly adds to the idea it is. And it certainly hasnt ruled him out.
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Henry's Army Records are on FindMyPast, he Married a Jane Cottle 4 Feb 1885 Evesham, there are two children mentioned, Henrietta b 25/6/1887, Florence b 17/8/1891,
Margp
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Hi
Christening Records for Charles and Henry
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N5TL-Q5Q
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N5TL-QFP
Margp
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Thanks so much everyone! I really appreciate the rapid response and the input.
To Reply:
1) No there is absolutely nothing on either the Death Cert or the Marriage Certificate about where he came from, or who his parents were.
2) Thanks for the link to the christening records. I will be in the UK in that area next month, is there a way to get copies of them?
3)Re Henry - well that seems to debunk the slim chance that Alfred Henry Hatter on the NZ probate docs was Charles' brother. We are still trying to check into that.
4) I was pretty convinced the Devizes family was our ancestor. If so, I knew he had a younger brother and a younger sister. His father died quite young (can't find out why) and his mother apparently died 2 years later (also don't know how). They turned up with the Cottle family. The trail went dead after that.
5) One thing that threw me for a bit of a loop was that an Elizabeth Hatter turned up in the census a few years after the supposed death of the mother as a servant in a household. She seemed to be the right age to have been Charles' mother. At this point I started to doubt myself and whether I had the correct family
6) I found a Lucy Hatter and ended up in a maze of Hatters and was totally lost.
7)Thanks very much for the information on Henry! That might prove to be a valuable connection to pursue.
8) I have no knowledge of what happened to Mary
9) I wonder if either John/Jane Hatter was a sibling of Edmond.
10) It seems possible Mrs Cottle was related to one of Charles' parents - I will try to check into a marriage certificate for that couple.
11) I have been unable to figure out where Charles went after that census with the Cottles.
Questions:
1) would he have been too old to go to a workhouse? Age 14+
2) is it possible he was one of the children "shipped off" to the colonies? Or
3) Could he have emigrated himself at the age of around 15?
He doesn't show up in NZ records (that I have found so far) until he is 27 (1876) and marrying Janet. However, he was there before that because he had a home and owned a couple of parcels of land.
p.s. I was amused by the signature line about genealogy being a Pandora's box -- My mother requested that I start researching her family and therefore, set me on this path, and so far - it has mostly been a story of misery and hardship - no royalty here!!!!
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Also..MargP:
I checked into Florence Hatter as a child of Henry. Interestingly, in 1901 she is listed as living with her Grandparents and stays with them until adulthood. I am confused though because the grandparents were listed as Joseph Cottle 57 and Elizabeth 55 (with a daughter Elizabeth M 7).
Wouldn't her grandparents have been Henry's parents Edmond and Elizabeth? According to the 1901 Census Joseph would have been born around 1844... how is that possible if Edmond was the grandfather (with the Hatter name) and was born around 1828?
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If you search for "Charles Hatter", including the speech marks, on the British Newspapers Online Archives you get the following results, amongst others.
MARLBOROUGH DISTRICT ASSOCIATION
“... Dudmore Lodge. 4s. to Jamei Jones, (driver) 4th ditto of 15s. to Geo. Ruddle, servant to Mr. G. Gale, Duriey. 2s. 6d. to Charles Hatter, (driver). Class ploughmen ... ”
Thursday 22 June 1843 , Devizes and Wiltshire Gazette
Oxford Journal
Third BATTALION GRENADIER GUARDS
“... Slerguld Jose Pearce George Maslall Thoma 1.s Roadhig John Harrison Jacob Youligs George Smith John1 Tomlinson Thomnas Rolfe Charles Hatter William Palmer Edward ... ”
Saturday 14 October 1854 , Oxford Journal , Oxfordshire, England
Salisbury and Winchester Journal
LIST OF KILLED AND WOUNDED AT THE BATTLE OF ALMA
“... James Pearce, icorge Maskall, Thoma* reading, John Harrison, Jacob Youuk, George Smith, Joseph Tl»omlitt*on, Tltomae Charle* Hatter, Samuel Itarrett. Edward ... ”
Saturday 28 October 1854 , Salisbury and Winchester Journal
Oxford Journal
[ill] OF THE KILLED & WOUNDED [ill] THE BATTLE OF THE ALMA
“... Jainrus Pearco George Maschall Tihuni as Roaditig John11 Harrison Jacob Young George Smith Joseph Tondinson 'TDomas Rolfo Charles Hatter Samruel Barrett Edward ... ”
Saturday 21 October 1854 , Oxford Journal
Its too old to be your Charles but could it be his uncle perhaps? I guess there must be references to other members of the Hatter family in Wiltshire & Oxon too.
You willl have to pay a subscription to read and download a PDF of the whole articles, or view the original at the British Library Newspaper Archive: http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search (http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search)
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Hi
A few things I found......
1848 Charles born Bromham/Chittoe, Wilts Reg: Devizes, Wilts (Freebmd.org)
1851 Charles is age 2 with family. Edmond & Elizabeth parents. Elizabeth (nee GRANGER)
1857 death of Edmond ( an Allotment Farmer) Reg: Devizes, Wilts covers Bromham (Freebmd.org)
1859 " " Elizabeth " " " " " "
1861 Charles 12, Henry 11,Mary 3 with Wm & Mary COTTLE. Mary (nee GRANGER)
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Couldn't find any more on Christenings or travel to NZ. There are a couple of people on Ancestry.com doing Charles' tree.
Hope this helps
Shirley
Perth WA
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Note that there is a Emigration board http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=136.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=136.0) People there will have a better idea of emigration records than us!
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Also..MargP:
I checked into Florence Hatter as a child of Henry. Interestingly, in 1901 she is listed as living with her Grandparents and stays with them until adulthood. I am confused though because the grandparents were listed as Joseph Cottle 57 and Elizabeth 55 (with a daughter Elizabeth M 7).
Wouldn't her grandparents have been Henry's parents Edmond and Elizabeth? According to the 1901 Census Joseph would have been born around 1844... how is that possible if Edmond was the grandfather (with the Hatter name) and was born around 1828?
You have two sets of grandparents. Your mums parents and your dads parents.
We know Henry married a Cottle (see reply #10), so his daughter will have a set of Cottle grandparents (as well as Edmond and Elizabeth Hatter, who we know were deceased when Henry was little, so Florence would never have known). Henry lived with a Cottle family, we dont know for how long, but if thgey brought him up then his daughter may look on them as grandparents too.
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Think yuo may have the wrong Florence on 1901. this looks like a possible family, living in Bromham
Henry Halter 49 - retired soldier b Bromham
Jane Halter 39 - b Bromham
Henrietta Halter 13 - b Evesham
Florence Halter 10 - b Evesham
May Halter 8 - b Evesham
Ella Halter 4 - b Bromham
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William and Mary Cottle, with whom the Hatters can be found in 1861, have a daughter Jane b 1863. The age may be a year or two out, but she is a very likely candidate for Henry Hatter's wife!
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Any chance this is Charles in 1871? he's only two doors away from William and Mary Cottle. If so would cut down your immigration window.
James Farmer 37
Jane Farmer 41
William Farmer 19
Albert Farmer 15
Mary Farmer 12
Thomas Farmer 7
Charles Hattel 22 - b Bromham, ag lab [image looks like Hatter]
RG10, 1913, 60, 11
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Hi,
SNAP !! ;D
If the Wiltshire Charles Hatter is the correct man then you can narrow his immigration down, he appears on the 1871 census boarding with a James and Jane Farmer. Anc* have him transcribed as Hattel, it is clearly Hatter on the image, plus a few doors away are William and Mary Cottle
Westbrook, Bromham
Charles Hatter 22 unm ag lab bn Wilts Bromham
Class RG10, Piece 1913, Folio 60, Page 11.
So he must have left England between 1871- 1876
Hope this helps
claire
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Excellent!! You folks are amazing!
I will pick away at this information and hopefully, it will bring me a couple of steps closer to filling in over a decade of Charles' life.
It should also help narrow down the emigration period, which would be a big help as well.
Regards, Carol
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Hi Carol
I found some info on Henry HATTER on Ancestry.com.
He did indeed marry Jane COTTLE in 1885. In 1891 he is a Drill instructor with just Jane & Henrietta.
He died in 1906 and his will confirms it is him.
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Charles is clearly on the 1871 census with the FARMER family.
I could find nothing on him after that.
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Families tended to use the same Christian names handed down through the years. Brothers would call their children the same names. Something which we don't tend to do nowadays. I've no doubt Alfred Henry HATTER would be a relative.
TTFN
Shirley
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Hi Shirley - thanks very much for the additional information about Henry. Does it say where he was living at the time he was a Drill instructor?
It appears there were two Henry Hatters at about the same age/place because I had one married to a Lucy. Now that I know for sure Jane was his spouse, it should help resolve some of these inconsistencies.
Regards, Carol
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Hi Carol
I’m Richard Hatter
I’m trying to find out more about my family of Hatters that came from Wiltshire- can we connect ?
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Hi Richard, sorry I missed your message to me (back in 2023!~!!)
Happy to connect with you if you are still interested? Where are you located?