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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Alirat153 on Wednesday 08 January 14 23:45 GMT (UK)
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Hi all - although I have been muddling along with my family history for 30 years I only got the 'genealogy' bug recently so am a newby with a lot of info. I now want records to back up my finds! I have joined Ancestry and have found a wealth of info. All well and good on the easy ones. I have a tricky relative who allegedly was a sea captain, but the records are very sketchy and although I have him being born in 1835 in Liverpool there is another Thomas Bartley b 1849 who keeps popping up - I don't think they are the same person but can't be sure. I cannot find birth records for my Thomas Bartley and no death, but I know the marriage record is correct. He married Esther Cherry Styles in 1858 and the record number is Liverpool 8b 399. Now it is this reference number that I do not understand the significance of. Is this a number that I can use to get a copy of the marriage certificate by any chance? That would be helpful as I could then verify his birth date. I am pretty sure his father was called Thomas also b 5 August 1810 in Liverpool, mother Margaret (nee) Plumb b 1814 also Liverpool.
I would like to find out about this man as there are family stories about him and it would be good to see if any are true!
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Hi
Yes, the reference number enables you to order the certificate from the GRO online at www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates for £9.25.
However the even better news is that with your Ancestry subscription you can view the marriage register online immediately! Enter Esther Cherry Styles and the entry in the "Liverpool, England, Marriages & Banns" database should come high in your search results.
Hope that helps :)
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The post-marriage censuses show your Thomas as:
1861: Not with Esther - perhaps at sea? Esther is in her mother's household: 59 Stanley St, Liverpool.
1871: 35, sailor, b Liverpool
1881: Dead - going by the fact that Esther is enumerated as a widow 1881-1901 (she dies 1905).
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Thanks for that!
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You're welcome.
I suggest you also have a look on Ancestry at the Masters' & Mates' certificates. Thomas Bartley was awarded his Second Mate certificate in 1864 and his First Mate certificate in 1866. Both documents show (2nd page in each case) that he was born 1835 Liverpool.
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Where would I find the Masters and Mates certificates? I have looked at catalogue names and can't find it at all. You wouldn't know if there are any deaths at sea registers would you? And thanks again for your help. The tools seem to be there, its just finding how to use them.
Edit : found it!
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Hello,
Thomas Bartley born 1835 Liverpool comes up 11 (on certificate shows 6th registered 7th) Oct 1859 with 2nd class Mates certificate 21.113 …. possibility two Thomas Bartley's?
On Ancestry, in SEARCH enter Thomas Bartley, birth year 1835, Liverpool, and the 3 entries will come up.
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Yes I believe there are definitely 2 Thomas Bartleys, mine b 1835 and the other b 1849. One of them (or yet another) seemed to be in jail rather a lot, so I will cross reference the jail terms with the babies birth dates (- 9 month) and see if I can nail it down. Oddly enough another Thomas Bartley was in prison before either of the above was born. Starting to get the hang of it but Ancestry searches seem a bit odd at times, not returning anything, then coming back with stuff at others.
Edit: There appear to be 2 brothers in the same family called Thomas! The older b1835 was brought up by grandparents and the younger b1849 lived with the parents. Now to find who was the crim...
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Thomas Bartley born 1835 Liverpool comes up 11 (on certificate shows 6th registered 7th) Oct 1859 with 2nd class Mates certificate 21.113 …. possibility two Thomas Bartley's?
Yes, good point. So we've got:
1859 2nd mate: Thomas Bartley b 1835 Liverpool, address 30 Aughton St, Everton
1864 2nd mate: Thomas Bartley b 1835 Liverpool, address 59 Stanley St Liverpool
1866 1st mate: Thomas Bartley b 1835 Liverpool, address 59 Stanley St Liverpool
So the latter two must be the same person.
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Then we see from the 1858 Bartley/Styles marriage that Esther's address at marriage was 59 Stanley St (where she was also in 1861 - see previous post), so the 1864 and 1866 certificates must be for her husband, your Thomas.
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I have a tricky relative who allegedly was a sea captain, but the records are very sketchy and although I have him being born in 1835 in Liverpool there is another Thomas Bartley b 1849 who keeps popping up - I don't think they are the same person but can't be sure.
Thomas Bartley b 1849 cannot be the same as the one who married in 1858 !!!
He'd have only been 9 ;)
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Edit: There appear to be 2 brothers in the same family called Thomas! The older b1835 was brought up by grandparents and the younger b1849 lived with the parents.
Yes I think you can be confident that your Thomas b 1835 is the one who is with his Plumb grandparents in 1851 at 38 Cumberland St (also with them in 1841). His address at marriage in 1858 was 38 Cumberland St, tying in perfectly with the Plumb household. Isaac Tate Plumb was one of the witnesses when Thomas married Esther.
I'm not convinced about the 1849 chap being part of the same family. Does that come from the 1851 census in Kersley, Lancs of a Thomas & Margaret Bartley plus 3 children (HO107/2206/23/38)? If so, why is it thought they are the same Thomas & Margaret? None of this 1851 family was born in Liverpool.
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Following on from the concern about the Thomas & Margaret Bartley found in 1851, it seems to me in fact that they can't be yours because Margaret Bartley nee Plumb had remarried to a Thomas Kent on 1 October 1837 and died in 1844.
The 1837 remarriage shows Margaret as a 23 yr old widow, her father named as John Plumb, a plane maker. New husband Thomas Kent was a 27 yr old mariner; both parties gave their address as Cumberland Street.
Margaret Kent, 29, of 38 Cumberland St was buried on 16th February 1844 (Holy Trinity, Liverpool).
She appears to have had a daughter Margaret in 1840 who (like half-brother Thomas Bartley) appears with the Plumb grandparents in 1851. She is likely to be the Margaret Kent who, together with Isaac Plumb, witnessed the Thomas & Esther marriage in 1858. She herself married Edwin Brown on 12 April 1861, giving her address as Cumberland St and naming her father as Thomas William Kent (deceased), Master Mariner.
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Gosh - two heads are better than one! I can't write a full reply because I have to dash out to work (8.30am here in New Zealand) but I have printed out some of the handwritten censusesto try and decipher who was where and living with who. For example I have the family listed as BURKY in the 1871 census - living with Esther Cherry's Sister and Thomas being listed as a sailor. Maybe it is indeed the father Thomas b1810 that is the fly in my ointment and where I have made a mistake.
Thanks so much for your kind assistance - don't think my lack of reply is non interest. Only boring stuff like work getting in the way.
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The family indexed in 1871 as Burky is indeed yours (the census schedule itself shows that the name is Bartley). That is the only census in which Thomas and Esther appear together, as per reply #2.
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Just so that you have it to hand, the chronology for Thomas' parents seems to be as follows:
1834 (9 March): Marriage of Thomas Bartley to Margaret "Plumbe", St Peter Liverpool.
1835: Birth of son Thomas (baptism not found)
Before 1 Oct 1837: Death of Thomas Bartley snr
1837 (1 Oct): Margaret remarries to Thomas Kent, mariner
1840 (Jun qtr): Birth of daughter Margaret Kent
1841 (census): Margaret Kent snr ("independent") and 1 yr old daughter Margaret are in Liverpool. Her son Thomas Bartley is with his Plumb grandparents
1844 (16 Feb): Burial of Margaret Kent aged 29
1851 (census): Orphaned Thomas Bartley and his half sister Margaret Kent jr are with their Plumb grandparents
1858 (28 Nov): Margaret Kent jr is a witness to the marriage of Thomas Bartley & Esther
1861 (12 April): Margaret Kent jr marries Edwin Brown.
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Right I see it now. The Bartleys of Kersley Lancashire are not in the same family at all. I had seen the Kent marriage but dismissed it, but of course that brings all the pieces together.
Thanks so much for your assistance. You don't happen to know if the criminal records can be tied to a person's age in any way do you? Thomas Bartley of the many Larcenys seems too busy being in jail to be fathering a family with Sarah Esther Cherry nee Styles. Besides, there is a Thomas Bartley larceny that precedes 1836, so perhaps I can rest assured that my ancestor was a hard working honest sailor. ;)
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Hello Alirat,
I too am trying to nail down Captain Plumb/Bartley as well as his father, also a Thomas, and his grandfather, perhaps called Francis. Was 'Captain' in fact a sobriquet for 'first mate'? Have you seen his portrait on Ancestry? Thomas's son, Thomas Edwin, who was born in 1861, himself became a sailor at the age of 14. At the Merseyside Maritime Museum there is a document dated 1880 referring to TE's transfer to the ship 'The Empire' which states that his father had been washed overboard and gives the father's occupation as that of 'sailor' rather than 'captain'. Have you found anything else about him and what are your family's stories regarding him. All the best, Roy
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Hello Roy - very pleased to meet you. I also think First Mate was the highest rank Thomas rose to, having seen some of the documents. I am about to rush off to work but would love to share what I have, and am fascinated about the info from the Merseyside Maritime museum. Verbal history in our family said he was a captain, (of a slave ship) but it does appear that was exaggerated. I will DM you when I get back from work and send my email address. Kind regards, Alison.
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Just in case Thomas Bartley's baptism was not found
Baptism: 10 May 1835 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Bartley - [Child] of Thomas Bartley & Margaret
Abode: Cumberland St.
Occupation: Turner
Baptised by: Richd. Appleton Curate
Register: Baptism 1834 - 1835, Page 225, Entry 1795
Source: LDS Film 1656421
Found on Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerk Project http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html
Ray
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Thanks Ray. It's Thomas the father that poses the problem. Was his father Francis Bartley or some other Bartley or Barkley? And where and when did he die? In Preston or elsewhere? I suppose it's a question of successfully matching the dates.
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Hello Alirat,
I too am trying to nail down Captain Plumb/Bartley as well as his father, also a Thomas, and his grandfather, perhaps called Francis. Was 'Captain' in fact a sobriquet for 'first mate'? Have you seen his portrait on Ancestry? Thomas's son, Thomas Edwin, who was born in 1861, himself became a sailor at the age of 14. At the Merseyside Maritime Museum there is a document dated 1880 referring to TE's transfer to the ship 'The Empire' which states that his father had been washed overboard and gives the father's occupation as that of 'sailor' rather than 'captain'. Have you found anything else about him and what are your family's stories regarding him. All the best, Roy
Hi Roy
I have seen that portrait on ancestry and have attached it to 'my' Thomas Bartley, although I am not convinced that it belongs. My ancestors around that era were poor folk, not the sort to have a painting done, unless of course he did become a captain - which I have found no evidence of. I haven't paid my sub to ancestry so cannot check at the moment - I will pay again soon. My Thomas Bartley/Plumb was married to Esther Cherry (there were a lot of Esther Cherry's at that time) and I have his father as Thomas Bartley married to Margeret Plumb. Margaret was also married to a Thomas Kent and they had a daughter Margaret Kent. Anyway I will DM you with my email. I haven't had time to spend on this for a while, will get back into it soon.