RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Annie65115 on Wednesday 08 January 14 22:08 GMT (UK)
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John Pallen d 1849 in London and in his will mentions his property "in the village of Norham in the county of Durham". He also mentions his brother William and various of William's family.
Another John Pallen, also a tailor, d 1832 in Norham and left his effects to his wife Margaret and to his son John, tailor, in London.
It seems fair to assume that the second was the father of the first and of William.
But where is/was Norham? And can anyone help me find any trace of John snr and Margaret's marraige, or of John jnr or William's birth? I've found John jnr in the 1841 census in Norfolk St, Marylebone (his address as per the older one's will); no age is given and he was born out of county. William had emigrated to Canada by then so I have no further info on him.
There are of course other possible spellings of "Pallen"!
Thanks for any help!
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Could this be the Norham you are looking for?
http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Norham/
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Found a baptism
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: John Palin
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 01 Jul 1772
Christening Place: Norham, Northumberland, England
Father's Name: John Palin
Mother's Name: Margaret
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04678-9
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 2193523
Reference ID: item 18 p 23
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JSD9-TMN
and also
Name: George Palin
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 21 Jan 1776
Christening Place: Norham, Northumberland, England
Father's Name: John Palin
Mother's Name: Margaret
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04678-9
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 2193523
Reference ID: item 18 p 27
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Have you checked for your family here?:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xis/
Unsure what is covered, but it may come in handy for other family members.
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So while looking for William, I found a marriage and then a tree online with the marriage
Married Elizabeth Skym, record is online
9 Jan Age: 26
St Martin in the Fields, London, England
children
William George, Peter, Margaret Jane, Elizabeth, Catherine, John who is as Dr. going to New Brunswick with wife and 5 children. First settled in
1820 Chatham Northumberland County, Brunswick
1831 Bathurst Gloucester County Canada
11 Jan 1858 death age 90
Found Peter's baptism, father tailor St Pancras but it's getting late and not looked for the rest, date for tomorrow!
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Was just typing it out as we cross posted :)
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Thanks folks!
I know of William Pallen's and Elizabeth Skym's marraiges and of their offspring in Canada, although I haven't followed the Canadian line further as Peter Pallen is the direct line ancestor I'vve been looking at. He seems to be the only one of that generation who didn't emigrate to Canada, and also the only one who wasn't left a bequest in his uncle John's will!
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Thanks for the Genuki ref; on there was a link to graveyard memorials and I think I've found the family, but listed as PAULIN.
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My great grandfather was William Pallen, great grandmother Melinda, came to Canada, from France to England, New Brunswick..
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I too have Peter Pallen as a direct ancestor - he is my great, great, great grandfather. I have followed up some of William (his father's) family in Canada but do not know why Peter stayed in London - nor why he was omitted from his uncle's will. I would love to be in touch with anyone who is also related.
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Hello Hilary! From which of Peter's children does your line come down?
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I am descended from Frederick Randall Pallen and then through Henry Pallen.
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ditto through Frederick but my daughter's line then comes down through Edward Lewis Pallen b 1879.
Going back to Peter, have you managed to find anything about his wife's background? I have Ann Mundell d 1839 and I think she might have been born Isle of Wight but I can't confirm that.
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Are you on Ancestry? If you are I can link our trees. Otherwise I'll get the details I have on Ann which is not a lot but you can obviously have what I know. or do you have an email address - would that be easier?
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now you have 3 messages you can use the pm facility on rootschat if you want to send anything off the board
However I think it's a sort of RC "tradition" that we share info on the public board unless there's good reason not to, so that anyone else searching for the same family can also join in.
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Peter Pallen's wife Ann was the daughter of James and Jane Mundell, who lived in Newchurch, Isle of Wight. She was born in 1802 or near to that date as she was christened on 10 Jan 1802. She had 5 other brothers and sisters - Emma, James, Betsey, Jane and Elizabeth.
Ann was married on 11 November 1822 in Camden and died on 10th June 1839 in Somers Town.
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hi Hilary, thanks for that addition; can I ask where you found the info as I searched high and low when I originally came across the name (but that was a couple of years ago!)
My notes say
"Ann had a sister Jane b Iof W 1790s (in 1851, Ann's daughter Jane was staying with the family and described as "neice"). Ann's daughter Jane had as an executor, Helen M Mundell b IofW ; Helen's father was George b 1827 I of W. Not found Ann's parents yet!"
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Its come from loads of sources like Ancestry and Find my past. Its like a jigsaw but I think the links tie up.
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The information about Ann's baptism is on FamilySearch
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NTFY-X2G
If you then click on Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03681-5 , put Mundell in the surname search, that brings up the baptisms of some of her siblings.
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After all these years you can still learn something new, eg I didn't know you could search on the batch like that on FS!
Anyway --- however -- Mundells I see but there seems to some confusion over James/Jos/John --
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I, too, am descended from William Pallen through his daughter Elizabeth. I have the wills of the two Johns and am in no doubt that William's parents are John and Margaret Pallen. There are a number of challenges in researching this family.
1) Norham is geographically in Northumberland but counted as being in Durham on some records.
2) the many different spellings of the surname.
3) The Pallens seem to have been Presbyterians. Marriage which took place in England was only legal if conducted in a Church of England, so the Pallen marriages may have taken place in Scotland, where the established church was Presbyterian.
I wonder why John P senior only mentioned his wife and son John in his will. I don't know when his son George died, but he had a whole bunch of grandchildren as well as his son William still alive. Strange that they weren't mentioned.
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This is so fascinating to find all these different branches and relations! I presume you are from the Morrow family? I can answer the point about Norham and Durham. We live in Northumberland - purely my chance not because of family - and Norham is a small village about 7 miles from Berwick upon Tweed. In the 12thC the Prince Bishops of Durham built a castle there and so it became almost an 'island' of County Durham, being surrounded on 3 sides by Northumberland and on one side by Scotland. I will see if I can search a marriage through the Scottish records but it would be really interesting to see the two wills - could you give me a suggestion as to where to find them? Any more details on the family would be really interesting to know - I may go and have a look around the churchyard at Norham - they may not have been married there but perhaps some of the family may have been buried there.
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Hello Hilary,
Yes, my family is the Morrow line. I found the wills of John P senior and junior on Ancestry. They are also available from the National Archives. A copy of John junior's will is also available on Scotland's People, since he died in Scotland. The Scottish version is actually easier to read, and includes an inventory. I ordered the Family Search films for Norham St Cuthbert, Norham Presbyterian and Ladykirk (just across the river Tweed in Scotland, where the established church is Presbyterian), but couldn't find a baptism for William, nor a marriage for his parents John & Margaret. Interestingly, the Presbyterian record for Norham shows John Palin (sic) under 'admission' on 28th June 1772. I assume this means that he joined the church on that date. This was just 3 days before his son John was baptised. Is this significant? Had John senior just joined the Presbyterian church, or had he just recently moved to Norham from elsewhere? If he had moved, then it would explain why I haven't found William's baptism, as I believe William was born a few years earlier, probably about 1768. Someone called Mike Simpson has kindly posted online details of Pallen burials in Norham: 'In memory of John Paulin of Norham who died ... November also Margaret his wife who died March ... 81 years. Also Diana Williams wife of John Paulin their son died in London January 5th 1830. Also the said John Paulin their son died in Dunse 19th April 1849 aged 77 years.' Obviously the headstones are worn and not completely legible. But the St Cuthbert register shows John senior was buried 3rd December 1831 aged 84. I haven't found Margaret's burial. I believe she probably died some time between 1832 and 1838, as these years are missing from the register. I'm going to WDYTYA live next week. Maybe I'll pick up some ideas as to where I can look for more clues.
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Really interesting - thank you.
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Ages ago Annie asked about the parents of Ann Mundell (b 1802) who married Peter Pallen. Her parents were James Mundell (1771-1823) and Jane Sweatman. James' parents were John Mundell (b1735) and Jenny Crew (1737-1812).
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1) Norham is geographically in Northumberland but counted as being in Durham on some records.
'Norhamshire' was one of three detached 'islands' of County Durham within Northumberland.
The other two were 'Islandshire' (Tweedmouth area) and 'Bedlingtonshire'. Anyone living there at the time of the 1841 census would have been enumerated as living in County Durham. Births there would be registered as being in County Durham.
This leads to great confusion for family historians!
These three areas became part of Northumberland under the 'Counties (Detached Parts) Bill' of 1844.