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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: londonscorpion on Saturday 04 January 14 12:49 GMT (UK)
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I am researching William Rufus Diamond. I have found many records which indicate that he was born in Dorking Surrey between 1824 and 1828. Unfortunately I not been able to locate any birth or baptism record. Can any one help?
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Hi to get things started, in 1851 he is shown as born c 1825 Dorking occ Lab at 13th Regiment of Industry, Winchester Barracks, Hampshire
Census ref HO107/1674/112/7
Keyboard86
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Hi again, looks like his father is Army based, as in 1841 William Rufus Diamond aged 15 is at Tilbury Fort, Orsett, Essex
Census ref HO107/322/3/3
Keyboard86
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hi and welcome to rootschat
also there is a service/pension record for him on find my past for the 13th foot there are 4 images and the record makes good reading he had a long and active career making sgt by the time he was invalided out , credits can be bought quite cheaply so it,s well worth downloading .
regards
trevor
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Hi
Do you have the marriage for William and Amy, I think it may be in Ireland, as there daughter Francis was born there, this should give Williams fathers name and occupation
Margp
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Hi all,
Thanks for the magnificent reponse. I have a great deal of information on William Rufus including all the sources that you have listed.
In reponse to your particular questions though, here goes.
William was married twice:
1st to Sarah Anne ???? around 1851 (calculated from the Census 1851 Brenchley, Tonbridge HO107-1615-429-18 (Joseph Diamond)).Joseph, I believe, was her father in law.
William and Sarah had two children, Frances Isadore Matilda (b. 1852) and Edward Adolphus (b. 1855).
2nd to Amy Joy - Marriage Certificate of Diamond William Rufus and Amy Joy 1885 in Gillngham, Kent. This has given me the name of Williams father as Joseph.
I have not found any issue to this marriage.
In repect of William Rufus I am looking particularly to find two sources:
(a) his birth or baptism certificate, to confirm his parents,
(b) his marriage certificate / banns details to Sarah Anne so I can get her sir-name.
If you need any more info please let me me know.
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Hi
This looks like the marriage for Sarah Ann
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGNF-SPV
Is there any occupation for Williams father
Margp
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Hi
There is an online tree that has a Edward Adolphus Diamond married to a Mary Towner they had 8 children, no parents given for Edward
Margp
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hi
found this earlier today but dismissed it but will post it anyway as you,ve mentioned brenchley civil service evidence of age records .
William diamond ,
dob mar 1828
bpt brenchley kent
regards
trevor
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hi
found this earlier today but dismissed it but will post it anyway as you,ve mentioned brenchley civil service evidence of age records .
William diamond ,
dob mar 1828
bpt brenchley kent
regards
trevor
Me. too Trevor
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Marge
That is absolutely brilliant. It definately is the right Sarah Anne: Frances was born in Birr Kings County, Ireland. William Rufus was stationed at Templeton in Tipperary where Edward Adolphus was born. I have both birth certificates, so I am sure of this. I also have all the details for Edward and Mary Towner. Actually she had 10 children, but the last two did not survive.
Occupational information I have on William's father, Joseph, is varied:
1841 dealer (census)
1851 poulterer (census)
1861 rigler (census) - I have no idea what a rigler is !!! but then I could not really interpret the census writing.
1863 dealer in chickens - formerly a farmer (his death certificate)
1885 butcher (marriage certificate of William and Amy)
HI t mo
Re the CSEoA: I have also found this but I am waiting for the original document before accepting it I am hoping this will be some form of birth certificate
Now for William's birth certificate. I would expect to find this in a Parish register but I don't know where to begin on this one (Unless the CSEoA turns up trumps.
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Hi
This looks like the marriage for Sarah Ann
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGNF-SPV
Is there any occupation for Williams father
Margp
Hi, I have just found this one with more information
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGFH-YC4
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There won't be a birth certificate because civil registration in England wasn't introduced until 1837.
If he was baptised the baptismal register may or may not record his date of birth. The availability of baptism registers depends upon date, place and denomination.
I suggest you post on the Surrey board and see whether you can get a Dorking parish register lookup. Perhaps also on the Kent board for Brenchley. Include a link to this thread so that people can see the background and it will avoid duplication of work already done.
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Hi
What about this one, may be a late christening, and added Rufus later
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NRC6-KVM
Margp
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Marge
I had previously calculated the date of Sarah Anne's marriage from the birth certificate of her first born, Frances Isadore Matilda. Wrongly I was assuming that the birth would be around 9 months after the date of the marriage.
Thanks a million for the second Family Search link. Abolutely brilliant. Many many thanks. Drfinately confirmed.
Hi avm 228
Given that there is a CSEoA record I presume there must be some sort of original document in existance. But thanks for the tip which I will follow. I presume you mean the Surrey and Kent board in Roots chat? What is the procedure to link to this thread?
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It looks as though Kent should be your priority rather than Surrey, given the Brenchley baptism extract.
Just copy the URL for this thread from your browser and paste it into your new post on the Kent board so that people can click through to this thread and see the info already found as background to your lookup request.
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Hi
"1st to Sarah Anne ???? around 1851 (calculated from the Census 1851 Brenchley, Tonbridge HO107-1615-429-18 (Joseph Diamond)).Joseph, I believe, was her father in law"
Defiantly her father-in-law, on the original census it states Wife of Son
Margp
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Hi all,
Now all that remains (for the time being !!!) is the question of William's birth place (Dorking in Surrey).
This was amv228's contribution:
William diamond,
dob mar 1828
bpt brenchley kent
dob Mar 1828 (OK but where ??); bpt Brenchley, Kent ( I think marge has found the transcript for this but I would like to see the original document before a 100% acceptance. Since I live not too far from Brenchley this may not be too much of a problem.
A most rewarding first experiance of RootsChat.
Thanks to all, et a bientot.
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Glad to have been of help, please let us know the outcome
Happy New Year
Marg x
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Another scenario, I noted that there is 10 age difference between Joseph and Matilda, I wonder if William was her child, before she married Joseph, and William has taken his surname
Marg
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Hi
Who was the informant on Josephs death record
Also this may be Joseph christening record
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NRC6-B42
Margp
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Hi
This the only Joseph and Matilda marriage I could find, not the right area, but may be worth a check
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NVQD-X51
A bit more info on this, Joseph is a widower, Matilda a Spinster, Witnesses George Rogers and Ann no surname
Margp
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Good afternoon Marge,
I have just read your latest email. I have been worrying all morning about the 10 year age gap between Joseph and Matilda and reviewing all my sources.
It is very nice to hear from you again and to know you are still on "my case".
The informant on Joseph's death cert (30 Oct 1863 at Matfield Brenchley) is written as follows:
+ Mark of
Jane Swan
Inmate
(Deceased being occupier)
Matfield Brenchley
The cause of death is marked as "Found dead in bed"
By the way, I wonder what the difference is between an inmate and an occupier: owner .v. sharer / tennant perhaps?
Thanks for the possible christening record. It may be significant because I believe (but not 100% confirmed) that Joseph was married twice: 1st as a batchelor to a Keturah Rogers in 1813 at All Saints, Fulham, Middlesex, and then as a widower to Matilda Green in 1826 at St Mark, Kennington, Lambeth, Surrey. I have found copies of the original banns. It has always worried me that these banns were not recorded in Brenchley or at least somewhere in Kent and so I have not given them too much importance. The interesting thing now is that one of the witnesses at Joseph's marriage to Keturah was a Frances Diamond. The others were John Rogers Junr., William Rogers and Fanny Trimbleby. The mention of Frances Gibbon as Joseph's mother is therefore very interesting.
Strangely, even with an unusual name like Keturah, I have not been able to find either a birth/baptism or a death record.
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A Keturah Rogers was baptised 6/4/1787 Little Chart, Kent, dau. of John and Keturah.
Similar age to Joseph.
Annette
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I note that witness to the marriage of Joseph and Keturah were John Rogers, jnr and a William Rogers.
A John Rogers married a Keturah Palmer 4/10/1781 Egerton, Kent (familysearch)
John Rogers bp.21/8/1782 Pluckley, Kent son of John and Keturah
William Rogers bp.8/3/1784 Little Chart, Kent son of John and Catherine (??)
Sophia Rogers bp.17/4/1785 Little Chart, dau. of John and Ketura.
Keturah Rogers bp.6/4/1787 Little Chart, dau. of John and Keturah.
Owen Rogers bp.25/5/1788 Pluckley, Kent, son of John and Keturah.
So we have a John junior and a William as brothers to Keturah and all 3 places mentioned above are adjoining parishes - their father another John.
Keturah goes to London to work and meets Joseph?
Annette
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Hi,
Do you think that this could be Keturah?
Keturah ROGERS
6 Apr 1787
Little Chart, Kent
Father: John
Mother: Keturah
Notes:Prvt Nov 29,Ch This Date
There are also these baptisms which could be the same family,
John ROGERS
21 Aug 1782
Pluckley, Kent
Father: John
Mother: Keturah
Wm ROGERS
08 Mar 1784
Little Chart, Kent
Father: John
Mother: Catherine
Notes:B Same Day
(I cannot see the image so I can't tell if Catherine is really Keturah)
Sophia ROGERS
17 Apr 1785
Little Chart, Kent
Father: John
Mother: Keturah
Owen ROGERS
25 May 1788
Pluckley, Kent
Father: John
Mother: Keturah
Possible marriage of parents,
John ROGERS
Keturah PALMER
04 Oct 1781
Egerton, Kent
This family would fit with the witnesses at Keturah's marriage to Joseph Diamond, her brothers John and William.
Regards,
Daisy
Oops....snap ! :)
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For what it's worth, a "George Rogers" was a witness to the Joseph Diamond/Matilda Green marriage in 1826.
The other witness, written below, was "Ann". No surname given for her - not sure whether she meant it to be read as a ditto of Rogers.
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Hi Annette,
A very nice idea, but to prove it I need to know that Joseph (the father of WRD) came from Brenchley (and then of course that Joseph travelled to London and met Keturah !!). The reason for this is that in the 1851 census for Brenchley (HO107-1615-42-18) I find a Sarah Ann, described as "Son Wife" staying with a Joseph (a poulterer) and his wife Matilda. In 1851 Sarah Anne's husband, WRD, was in Winchester Barracks ( a small discrepancy here in that he is marked as NOT married!). The trouble is that I have no census with WRD living with his parents since he joined the army on 14 September 1838 at the age of 14.
All that information on Keturah is new for me so thanks very much for that.
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Hi Daisypetal,
Thanks for all that. I am still absorbing it all.
Hi avm228,
Thanks for that too.
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1. The 1851 and 1861 census clearly both state Joseph was born Brenchley.
2. As I understand it, when someone married and stated they were 'of that parish' i.e. where they married and were currently living, the banns would not be read in his birthplace. They'd only be read in birthplace if he was still living there and clearly he wasn't. I don't think you are going to find the 'proof' that you seek.
Annette
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The trouble is that I have no census with WRD living with his parents since he joined the army on 14 September 1838 at the age of 14.
Just a note on William's likely birthdate. I notice that his Army discharge records treat him as having being "under age" from 14 September 1838 -13 September 1842, with the result that his reckonable service starts from 14 September 1842.
I am not sure whether that means 14 September was his birthday, or whether it had to do with the fact that is was the anniversary of his enlistment. (Perhaps he had joined on that date because it was his birthday?).
Anyway, the records also show him as aged 39 yrs 8mo at discharge on 24 May 1864, consistent with a September 1824 birth.
Have you found Army records for him other than those drawn up around the time of his discharge?
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Hi avm228,
I have only found the 4 documents associated with his discharge which I have transcribed and analysed in some detail. The point you make is a good one and I had already made some calculations along the following lines. If his age at discharge (39yr 8mo) is correct, and we assume it was exactly 8 months with no fewer or extra days, I calculate that this gives his birthdate as 28 September 1824. If we now take this date and compare that with the date of enlistment (14 September 1838), he was 13yr 11.42mo. But if he did join on his 14th birthday as you suggest, with 30 days in September, he should have been born on the 17th day of September. Tell me if this is just counting the same thing from two ends or is it valid - my date arithmetic never was that good and Excel does make it just that little bit easier to make mistakes faster.
Even if the above does work, and lets say the day and month are correct, we still have the problem of different birth years being suggested by other documents:
1871 census in Hereford at 43 - birth year would be 1828
Death certificate in January 1900 at 73 - birth year would be 1826
And of course, still the final problem of finding documentary evidence for all this.
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My thinking was that the date of the transition between time served "under age" and time served not under age would (logically) be his birthday - so 14 September.
The discharge was prompted by debility rather than an age threshold being reached. If he had been born on 14 September 1824 that would be consistent with the 39 yrs 8 mo calculation at discharge (in that upon discharge on 24 May 1864 he would be 39 yrs 8 mo but not yet 39 yrs 9mo old).
Have you had any luck following up the 1828 Brenchley baptism?
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I agree entirely and probably the best stab at a day and a month. That could put us within 3 days of an actual birth "day" within a range of 4 years!. How accurate can you get !!
Did the army ever get more precise than counting age by months?
Not yet. I am expecting an extract by email tomorrow. I'll keep everyone posted.
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Just as an aside - I had wondered whether his middle name "Rufus" had been acquired when he was a youngster by way of a nickname for redheadedness.
But apparently not, as his hair was "light brown" according to those Army records* ;)
Also - he was 6ft tall. Not sure of the stats but I think that would have been pretty unusual then.
*actually, come to think of it I know a couple of people who were true redheads when young but tending towards the "light brown" by middle age...
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Hi
Most genealogy records are tenuous, and are only has good has the informants knowledge, also they these may be copied from the original source, and are prone to errors, a lot of people in those days, did not know there exact date of birth, as this was not celebrated, as it is today, and they would hazard a guess
Margp
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Hi avm228,
Another thought on WRD's year of birth. According to the army records, WRD was underage for 4 years from 14 Sep 1838 to 3 Sep 1842, therefore I assume that the minimum age for recruitment was 18. Is it possible that he would (even could) have enlisted at age 12 (in 1826) or at age 10 (in 1828)? I can understand that a tall fourteen year old may have been able to persuade recruiters that he was 18, but I find it difficult to believe the same of a 10 or 12 year old. Did the army ever enlist children that young? Was it legal?
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Hi,
I wonder if this is the William DIAMOND baptised 18 Jun 1830 in Brenchley, Kent?
1851 HO107/1635 f.359 p.5 Hastings St Mary in the Castle, Sussex
24 George Street
William DIAMOND Shopman Un 22 Draper's Shopman Kent, Brenchley
Living in the household of Thomas MORGAN.
Where does this one disappear to though?
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Hi all,
I have just got WRD's Civil Service Evidence of Age document. It is a copy of page 140 of Baptisms solemnised in the Parish of Brenchley in 1830.
2 years and 3 months old when baptised
When baptised: 18 June
Childs Christian name: William son of
Father: Joseph
Mother: Matilda
Abode: St Pancras, London
Occupation: Carrier
It certifies that "the above is a true copy" and says it was "extracted this 16 day of March" 1866 "in the year of our Lord by me".
From the above we calculate his Dob to be March 1828.
I also have a post on the Armed Forces forum where WRD's military career is discussed. Here is the link for those who wish to read it - there is also more on his date of birth:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=673376.20
Without any other documentary evidence it does seem that his birth year was most likely 1824. Remember, if we can find no sources, then just maybe there were none, and just maybe WRD's date of birth on his Military Records is from his own memory, which could be wrong. Bottom line I am still not sure that the CSEoA proves anything except perhaps that Joseph and Matlilda were not his parents. We search on!
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Aaargh!
So if the age at baptism is right, he was only 10.5 yrs old when he enlisted in the Army.
And if on the other hand the Army records are right, he was 5 and three quarters when baptised but was recorded as 2 yrs 3 months. Hard to see how that mistake could be made.
???
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Hi avm
I agree entirely, but I am now suspecting that the William in the CSEoA is not our WRD. Shame but for the moment it needs more investigation - critically we need to see the Dorking records, if they exist!
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I am now suspecting that the William in the CSEoA is not our WRD.
But doesn't the 1851 census for his wife Sarah (indirectly) place him firmly with Joseph & Matilda of Brenchley?
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I agree
Margp
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You are right - it would, but only if that Sarah was WRD's Sarah. If it were WRD's Sarah, and this is confirmed by the marriage record for William Rufis and Sarah in Parsonstown, Ireland on 23 Feb 1848, it is not confirmed by the 1851 census where we find WRD, as a sergeant, in Barracks in Winchester marked as Unmarried. I have made a detailed study of the locations of the 13th LI and in 1848 they were in Ireland so I think we can rely on the marriage record.
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WRD won't have had any input into the 1851 census record. The barracks return will have been completed by someone else and, with such a long list of people, errors might easily have crept in - perhaps simply by a misplaced ditto. Another possibility is that for some reason he hadn't told the Army he was married (perhaps because he had not got his commanding officer's permission to marry) and hence was living in barracks as though he were a single man.
Anyway, you've satisfied yourself that he had married in 1848 and I agree you can rely on that. So the 1851 census for him is wrong in that he was in fact married rather than unmarried.
Are you thinking that the error in the barracks return undermines the finding for Sarah with Joseph & Matilda in Brenchley - if so, why?
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Hi
I would take another look at the 1851 census, as William is shown has married under the heading Condition
Margp
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I would take another look at the 1851 census as William is shown has married
Hi Margp - it looks to me as though he's dittoed as Unmarried from Patrick Callaghan two rows above ???
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I would take another look at the 1851 census as William is shown has married
Hi Margp - it looks to me as though he's dittoed as Unmarried from Patrick Callaghan two rows above ???
Yes you are right, I have just looked again, it usually states single that's where I mistakenly thought it was married
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Hi avm
No, not really as I too had wondered who had filled out that census. I agree with you.
No, for me what has possibly undermined the 1851 census (Sarah with Joseph & Matilda in Brenchley) is the CSEoA: the date of birth discrepancy is just too big: Sep 1824 v Mar 1858, 3 1/2 years. Unless I suppose you argue that WRD really did not know his DoB which is why he asked for the CSEoA in the first place. In 1866 when it was issued he had just married Amy in Gillingham. Their MC says they were of "Full" age.
Hi marge,
I too read that as a ditto on the line above.
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Hi avm
No, not really as I too had wondered who had filled out that census. I agree with you.
No, for me what has undermined the 1851 census (Sarah with Joseph & Matilda in Brenchley) is the CSEoA: the date of birth discrepancy is just too big: Sep 1824 v Mar 1858, 3 1/2 years. Unless I suppose you argue that WRD really did not know his DoB which is why he asked for the CSEoA in the first place. In 1866 when it was issued he had just married Amy in Gillingham. Their MC says they were of "Full" age.
Hi marge,
I too read that as a ditto on the line above.
Have you sent for the marriage certificate, for William and Sarah Ann, that may hold some clues
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The CSEOA file will have been generated by WRD being required by someone else (some branch of the Civil Service) to prove his age.
It seems to me that Sarah in Brenchley in 1851 must (realistically) be WRD's wife Sarah. In which case Joseph married to Matilda is his father and the overwhelming likelihood is that the 1830 Brenchley baptism as a son of Joseph & Matilda is his baptism.
Which leaves the age discrepancy. Even if the 2 yrs 3 months stated on the baptism was not precisely right I'd think it must be approximately right as it's hard to see how a 4, 5 or 6 yr old could be passed off as a 2 yr old.
As we've said before, that leads to the surprising conclusion that he joined the Army at age 10. We know that he was unusually tall (for the time) so perhaps he was indeed in a position to lie about his age and pretend to be older than he in fact was.
He left the Army in 1864 and the CSEOA is dated 1866 - so when he was back in civilian life some official wanted proof of how old he was. Is there anything in the CSEOA which tells you why it was obtained?
NB: a CSEOA would not have been required for the marriage to Amy. In any event there would not have been any doubt by 1866 that he was of full age (over 21).
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Hi Marge
I would if I knew how !!!! I presume there is an equivalent to GRO in Ireland. Please let me know. Is it possible to view an image on line?
Avm
Unfortunately, nothing at all.
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I would if I knew how !!!! I presume there is an equivalent to GRO in Ireland. Please let me know. Is it possible to view an image on line?
It looks as though findmypast has a record of the marriage in its Irish records - indexed under William Rufis [sic] Diamond, 1848. You'd need a World subscription or 5 pay as you go credits to view it.
http://tinyurl.com/na2uhs6 (scroll down to the last result on the page)
Let us know what you find :)
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This is what comes up from FindMyPast
First Name: William Rufis
Last Name: Diamond
Year: 1848
Registered Quarter/Year: 1848
Registration District: Parsonstown
Volume: 9
Page: 547
Potential Spouse Names: Sarah Anne Symons
Mary Fitz
Record set: Irish Marriages 1845-1958
Category: Birth, marriage, death & parish records
Record collection: Marriages & divorces
Collections from: Ireland
This is the same as the FamilySearch that Marge sent me, but there is no image attached to it. Volume 9 page 547 sound like an index reference. Who do I approach to get a copy of the actual certificate?
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There is not an original copy, just the details to order it, I think that this may be the link but I am not sure
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/General-Register-Office.aspx
Order details
William Rufis Diamond to Sarah Anne Symons
1848
Reg Parsonstown
Vol 9
Page 547
Marg
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Any of the records that you have found on FamilySearch, can be ordered in, and viewed at the your local FamilySearch Centre
Marg
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Marge
Thanks for the site details. It gave me a phone number and I find that I can only order by post. So that I will do and when I get the results I'll keep you updated.
The nearest Family Search Center is quite a way from me so we'll get it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak!.
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Sorry, I did not mean the marriage in Ireland, I meant any of the other records
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marge
Which in particular?
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The ones in India
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Hi
I have just found this Will I am not sure if it is related but I will add it too the mix
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_fn=joseph&_ln=diamond&_occ=&_pl=&_q=&_sd=&_ed=&_ser=PROB+11&_dt=W&_col=online&image1.x=29&image1.y=15
Margp
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The Will is on line on Ancestry, it is very hard to read, but I think it mentions some Gibbons which I think you have a Frances Gibbons has possible mother for Joseph
Margp
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Marge, Thanks for that. I have just got it and, Yes, it is hard to read. As you say it's in the mix and when we get past the current Joseph and Matilda issue, I will read it.
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Further musings on WRD’s age and an update on progress.
WRD’s son, Edward Adolphus, also enlisted in the 13th Light Infantry (although I have not found any military records for him) and we find him in the 1871 census at the Pembroke Dock in South Wales with over 640 other members of his regiment. Edward was the youngest of all his comrades at the tender age of 15, although there was one other 15 year old in the group.
As a matter of interest I wonder what they were doing there?
As avm228 has told us, WRD would have had no input to the census and this now proves to be absolutely true: I have reviewed all 33 census pages associated with the battalion and I find that the census was written up in the following order:
officers in order of Rank,
unaccompanied men in alphabetical order,
married men with their families in no obvious order.
It’s difficult to imagine all those men in a name order queue waiting to give their details!!!
From all the above, I conclude that (at least in 1871) the army must have known and accepted that some of their men were as young as 15 and that this was quite acceptable. Maybe in 1838, when WRD enlisted, the acceptable age was even lower.
I have sent off to General Register Office in Ireland for WRD's marriage certificate and I am waiting for results.
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It’s difficult to imagine all those men in a name order queue waiting to give their details!!!
The return would have been compiled by the orderly room clerks using the Attestation Forms completed when they enlisted. They may have had to ask the married men about some details of the children, but the paymaster kept details of the number and ages of the children.
Ken
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Fascinating search and great help. I am in little chart and about to start collecting and collating little chart family trees. I would be interested in anything that says where your ancestors lived in the village. I hope to produce some maps, with house names etc and family history. I have been collecting photos and postcards and have a book out soon( in an attempt to flush out more) if you are interested it's called Weald Villages. Will let you know if I find out more about your little chart connections.
Kaye
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Hi to Kayehelen and a further update on progress
Kayehelen, sorry for the slow response but I have been otherwise occupied. I have not yet got round to investigating the connections with Little Chart and Pluckley but I will certainly keep you updated with any progress. I am still hoping that more registers/listings will come online re Dorking in Surrey that will shed confirming light on WRD’s parents and DoB. Keep your eye on this forum and my other posts, all concerning WRD, on the Armed Forces, Kent, and Surrey forums. Good luck with your book and let me know where I can get a copy.
I am still waiting for a copy of the Irish marriage certificate of WRD and Sarah Ann – I am assured it will arrive next week.
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Here is the long awaited marriage certificate of WRD and Sarah Ann. Unfortunately it does not shed much light on his D0B, both being of "full age". However we now know the occupations of the fathers: a gentleman for Joseph, and a ???? for John. I think I read "gardener" but I am not at all sure. Anyone got a better suggestion? The thing here is that Joseph being a gentleman does not quite tie in with the three census occupations I have for him:
1841 dealer
1851 poulterer
1861 higler
The other two sources, which are 100% reliable, give occupations which are also difficult to reconcile:
1885 butcher (marriage certificate of William and Amy)
1863 dealer in chickens - formerly a farmer (Joseph's death certificate)
In none of the above three censii do we have WRD living with his parents and so no direct link between him and this Joseph can be confirmed. The only other (very circumstantial) link comes from the presence of a Sarah Ann in the 1851 census who is the right age (22 and therefore DoB 1829) AND she is described as "Son Wife". Neither piece of information by itself proves that this Sarah Ann is WRD's wife. On the other hand, we now have found Sarah's date of death (23 Sep 1861) from the original image (at FindMyPast British-India-Office-Births-and-Baptisms) of her record in the handwritten Register of Burials at Gonda in India. This gives her age as 32 which confirms her DoB as 1829. I think I shall have to start to try and find Sarah’s parents, starting with her father - what was his occupation again?
Of some interest too perhaps are the witnesses. Thomas Wilson was a sergeant in the 13th (a labourer as a civvy) and we find him in the same 1851 census as WRD. I have not been able to locate John P Warberton (or is this Marberton - anybody?)
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A big Hi to everyone who may be still interested: I have just made a major breakthrough in my William Rufus Diamond (WRD) research with the location of three new sources:
1) the burial record for a Keturah Diamond in Brenchley (17 Dec 1825). This would have been first wife of WRD’s father, Joseph. This find puts Keturah definitely in Brenchley with Joseph. The date of this record also ties in with Joseph’s second marriage to Matilda in 1826.
2) the baptism records for three children born to Joseph and Kate:
Keturah 1814 – 1814; Joseph 1815 - ????; and Mary Kate 1820- ????
There may of course have been more.
3) a marriage record for a Mary Kate Diamond and Edward Barnes in April 1848 at St Mildred, Tenterden, Kent. The record tells us that both Mary Kate and Edward were resident in Brenchley at that time; and confirms the fathers as Joseph Diamond and John Barnes.
This last find is very significant because amongst the artifacts I inherited from my father is a letter, dated March 27 1889, addressed to William Rufus Diamond in Brecon, from a John E Barnes, 37 years of age, living in St Louis, Missouri, USA. The letter begins “Dear Uncle Rufus” and goes on to talk of “Sister Ruth” living in Detroit, and his son of 9, Harry Edward.
Thoughts on WRD’s date of birth
I am very much minded to now accept that WRD was born in March 1828 as the copy baptism record indicates:
(a) it is the date that calculates from the note in the baptism extract (that he was 2 years and 3 months when baptised), and that information must have been given by Joseph or Matilda - why would they have any need to falsify that.
(b) 1828 is the date that WRD uses on the 1871, 1881 and 1891 censii after his discharge from the army when he had no further reason to hide his true age.
Thoughts on WRD’s place of birth
As to his place of birth, I am still very much open to either Brenchley or Dorking, Surrey, but on balance I think Dorking is more likely:
(a) he stuck with this place from the very first record he had;
(b) his father, Joseph, worked as a carrier and just maybe at some point he was living in Surrey with Matilda;
(c) in any case why would he want to lie about that detail which alone would not have prevented him from being accepted into the army;
(d) if WRD had been born in Brenchley, why would he not have been able to obtain a copy of his birth record instead. I would assume that it was WRD who organised the copy because both Joseph and Matilda had died in 1863.
There are of course still other questions to answer, notably the widely varying occupations, but the bottom line is that my faith is now totally restored in the 1851 census which puts WRD’s first wife, Sarah Ann, with Joseph, her father-in-law.
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Hi
That's brilliant, so your hard work was not in vain, if you look hard enough, you can always find that one piece of evidence, that can confirm your finding.
Margp
Edit, our to your