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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: apalmer1662 on Friday 03 January 14 08:55 GMT (UK)
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I'm hoping that someone will know where in Ayr Duke Street was/is. The 1894 and 1900 Ayr Post Office and Trade Directories have John Duncan, engine driver, residing there but I haven't had any luck searching online maps.
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Looks like it's gone now but the answer to a query on another site has details-
http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Society-and-Culture/People-and-Places/Question103663.html
Or maybe not :-\
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Thanks for the suggestion, aghadowey. Unfortunately the Kilmarnock Duke Street is not the one. The family I'm looking for are in Ayr and Newton on Ayr census, valuation rolls and Post Office directories for Duke Street from 1891 to 1920s. Thanks for the quick reply, though.
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Yes, I also found a postal directory online (1894) and checked the street section (sometimes will say something like 'Duke St. off High Street' but unfortunately not in that issue). The OP on the other site does seem to be looking for the same Duke St. in Ayr that you want (and not the one in Kilmarnock).
If you don't get an answer to your query I suggest contacting the Carnegie Library in Ayr- they've a reference section as well as a local history one-
http://www.south-ayrshire.gov.uk/libraries/
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Thanks aghadowey.
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Have you followed through on the NLS directories past 1900? See http://www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office/index.cfm?place=Ayrshire
Was there more than one John Duncan living in Duke Street in that time?
For example, I can see a John Duncan showing at 12 Duke Street in 1903-4 here www.archive.org/stream/ayrpostofficegen190304uns#page/226/mode/2up However, in the 1901 census, this John shows as a Gardeners Labourer, married to an Elizabeth. His son John is showing as a boot finisher.
However, you have a John Duncan showing in Duke Street as an engine driver. Can't be the same John :-\
Monica
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Duke Street was around the Viewfield Road/Russell Drive area.
Go to http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html , put in the co-ords 234205 622665 and select one of the 1,2500 maps from 1896 onwards. :)
Steven
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Thanks, Monica. You have the right family. There was one John Duncan in Duke Street, first at 20 Duke Street (1891 census), then at 12 Duke Street (1901 census). The P.O. and Trade Directories seem to refer to 12 Duke Street as 12 Arnsheen Terrace.
John was railway worker for most of his adult life: stoker (1875 marriage register; 1881 census) then engine driver (1891 census; 1899 daughter Jane's marriage register). In 1901 at age 55 he seems to have retired and is listed as Gardener's Labourer (1901 census) then Gardener (1915 and 1920 Valuation Rolls). John is not the first ancestor I've found who retired from labouring to become a gardener.
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I wish I could find an Ayr map c. the period you are now looking at (they all seem to stop mid 1860s :-\ from what I have found). Steven's recommendation would be the way to go now I think. Have seen the reference to Viewfield Road too...just hadn't seen a more modern map to link it to.
Aghadowey's suggestion of contacting www.south-ayrshire.gov.uk/libraries/ will also help :)
Monica
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Thanks, Steven and Monica. Found it on the 1909 Pre-WWII 1:2500 at http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html I had suspected it was near a railway, as the 1915 and 1920 Valuation Rolls record a number of engine drivers, engine cleaners, signalmen, guards living in Duke Street - and there it is, just a street away from a railway engine shed!
There is also a lace factory nearby, which fits with John's daughter, Letitia, being employed as a lace worker.
Thanks again.
Andrew
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Great! Well done Steven for the directions ;)
Monica
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I now live next to Duke Terrace which was named after Duke Street,we did a huge research on the area for a community day event last may,Ayrshire Archives have maps and details of the area,when we researched occupations most were engine and rail workers in the 1901 and 1911 census,sadly we couldn't find a photo which was clearly Duke Street,if you would like any info we have gathered please let me know via pm.
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Duke St run parallel with part of viewfield road I was one of the last to move before demolition we lived with an uncle and the old rail sheds were just across the foot bridge from viewfield road where all the steam engines were kept my brother in law was a stoker then a driver and he is in his seventies now and his son is now a driver
viefield Rd run from Allison St
I hope this is of some help
regard David
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Thanks, David. That kind of detail is fantastic, as I'm trying to write down what it would have been like for my great-great grandfather to live in the area and be a stoker, later engine driver.
I'm in Australia, so have to rely on internet and books. I assume that the railway company 1875 - 1920 was the Glasgow and South Western Railway?
David, do you have any recollection of the Newton upon Ayr gas works in Allison Street behind Damside? Could you see them or smell them in Duke Street?
Thanks again,
Andrew
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Hi Andrew
Im sure we couldn't see the gas works from there but must have some smell at times if the wind was in that direction as the start of Duke St would only be 2 or 3 hundred yds away as the crow flies we were in No 4 which was the nearest to the gas works 90% of the houses were semi detached bungalows or terraced as I remember with back gardens one block at the opposite side of the street being 2 story I think ether 2 closes or 1 with 4 or 8 flats
the main entrance to the gas work was at the very bottom of damside at the junction of tweed St
and main St across from the big brewery pub the building is still there but no pub behind the pub I im sure was the brewery and turners lemonade now shops my brother in law might have some photos connected to the railway next time Im in Uk I will find out I live mostly in Cyprus anything else I can help you with let me know what was your grandfathers name out of interest
regard David
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Thanks for your reply, David. My Great-great grandfather was John Duncan. He lived at 9 Damside 1875 - 1890, then moved to Duke Street - first number 20, then number 12. His brother-in-law, William Cowan, was also an engine driver. John Duncan retired from the railway about 1901.
I really appreciate you sharing your memories of the area. Any photos would be a bonus.
Andrew
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Hi Andrew
out of curiosity I went on to the Scottish post office directories for that time and I see there is a james Duncan engine driver 51 Nelson St which is just around the corner from Duke St could this be another relative Im sure the Carnegie public library 12 Main St Ayr would have photos and information for you
regards David
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Hi David.
I saw the same trade directory entries - those books are a goldmine of information. As far as I know James Duncan is not related. With Rootschatters' help I've determined that John Duncan was illegitimate, born in Glasgow and grew up with his uncle's family (McWhirter) in Ayr. I don't know of any connection with Ayrshire Duncans.
Thanks for the information on the Carnegie library. I'll look them up.
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
Could you give me some information on William Cowan. He was my great great grandfather who lived at 20 Duke St., Ayr.
Thanks
Dean
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Hi Dean, here's what I have on William Cowan...
William Cowan married my great great aunt, Mary Stewart. Mary's sister, Elizabeth Stewart (my great great grandmother), married John Duncan.
John Duncan and William Cowan both lodged with their families at 9 Damside with the widowed Mary Stewart, nee McLeod (grandmother of William Cowan's wife Mary). Grandmother Mary Stewart died in 1876 and the Cowans and Duncans continued to live at Damside. Between the two families there were 16 children at 9 Damside before the Duncans moved into their own home about 1890. The Duncans rented their own home at 20 Duke Street. The Duncans then moved to 12 Duke Street by 1895.
William Cowan born about 1853 in Ayr
1861 Census: Age - 8. Residence - Shaw Cottage, St Quivox and Newton on Ayr
1871 Census: Age - 17. Occupation - Railway Engine Cleaner. Residence - Damside, Stewarts Land. William Cowan is lodging with Mary Stewart, grandmother of his future wife.
1872 Nov 22. Marriage to Mary Stewart, Whitletts, St Quivox Parish. Occupation - Stoker. Residence - Damside, Newton Parish. Parents James Cowan, Ploughman and Martha Cowan maiden name Hodges.
1875 Scotland Valuation Roll: Residence - Damside. Occupation - Fireman. Proprietor Mrs Anthony Stewart (Mary Stewart, widow) owns two houses side-by-side. Mary lives in one, William Cowan is the tenant of the other.
1881 Census: Age - 27. Residence - 9 Damside. Occupation - Railway Engine Driver. Co-tenants with the Duncan family
1885 Scotland Valuation Roll: Co-tenant at 9 Damside with brother-in-law John Duncan. Proprietor recorded as Anthony Stewart, Blacksmith, of 54 Beansburn, Kilmarnock
1891 Census: Age - 37. Residence - 36 Nelson Street. Occupation - Railway Engine Driver
1901 Census: Age - 48. Residence - 32 Nelson Street. Occupation - Railway Engine Driver
1916 May 12. Death. Cause of death: Chronic Bright's disease. Died at: 20 Duke Street.
I hope there is something new in this information for you.
Regards,
Andrew
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Hi Dean, here's what I have on William Cowan...
William Cowan married my great great aunt, Mary Stewart. Mary's sister, Elizabeth Stewart (my great great grandmother), married John Duncan.
John Duncan and William Cowan both lodged with their families at 9 Damside with the widowed Mary Stewart, nee McLeod (grandmother of William Cowan's wife Mary). Grandmother Mary Stewart died in 1876 and the Cowans and Duncans continued to live at Damside. Between the two families there were 16 children at 9 Damside before the Duncans moved into their own home about 1890. The Duncans rented their own home at 20 Duke Street. The Duncans then moved to 12 Duke Street by 1895.
William Cowan born about 1853 in Ayr
1861 Census: Age - 8. Residence - Shaw Cottage, St Quivox and Newton on Ayr
1871 Census: Age - 17. Occupation - Railway Engine Cleaner. Residence - Damside, Stewarts Land. William Cowan is lodging with Mary Stewart, grandmother of his future wife.
1872 Nov 22. Marriage to Mary Stewart, Whitletts, St Quivox Parish. Occupation - Stoker. Residence - Damside, Newton Parish. Parents James Cowan, Ploughman and Martha Cowan maiden name Hodges.
1875 Scotland Valuation Roll: Residence - Damside. Occupation - Fireman. Proprietor Mrs Anthony Stewart (Mary Stewart, widow) owns two houses side-by-side. Mary lives in one, William Cowan is the tenant of the other.
1881 Census: Age - 27. Residence - 9 Damside. Occupation - Railway Engine Driver. Co-tenants with the Duncan family
1885 Scotland Valuation Roll: Co-tenant at 9 Damside with brother-in-law John Duncan. Proprietor recorded as Anthony Stewart, Blacksmith, of 54 Beansburn, Kilmarnock
1891 Census: Age - 37. Residence - 36 Nelson Street. Occupation - Railway Engine Driver
1901 Census: Age - 48. Residence - 32 Nelson Street. Occupation - Railway Engine Driver
1916 May 12. Death. Cause of death: Chronic Bright's disease. Died at: 20 Duke Street.
I hope there is something new in this information for you.
Regards,
Andrew
I lived at 20 Duke street from the early sixties untill 1974. My name is Terry McCreath
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I'm hoping that someone will know where in Ayr Duke Street was/is. The 1894 and 1900 Ayr Post Office and Trade Directories have John Duncan, engine driver, residing there but I haven't had any luck searching online maps.
I stayed at 20 duke street from 1960 to 1974
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Hello I read your post with interest. I have been away from Ayr for many years but still have family members in the town. I recall the area your are talking about from my youth, mostly all of this area has been redeveloped. I am doing a tribute to Tam McKean, born 1900, who was the founder of the Ayr Health and Strength club, founded in 1920. Tam fired up steam engines at the railway yards, adjacent to the club at Tam's Brig. If you are able I suggest you join the group Remembering Auld Ayr. It is a great resource continually being updated. I have seen many references, stories and photos of much on old Ayr pertaining to the places you mention. Attachments Signal Box Tam's Brig, photo Damside, showing Gasworks. Two of many vintage photos on the Ayr site. hope this helps
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Gasworks photo?
Welcome to RootsChat.
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Hi Adam,
Thanks for your message and photo. I can't see the Gasworks photo, though, so I'll have a look at the Remembering Auld Ayr group. As an Australian, the first thing that strikes me is the brown brickwork of Ayr. I wonder if the Duke Street houses were built of the same?
Regards,
Andrew Palmer
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Hi Terry,
Thanks for your messages, and sorry for the delay in replying. Amazing that you lived at number 20. May I ask what the house and garden were like?
Regards,
Andrew Palmer
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Hi Adam,
Thanks for your message and photo. I can't see the Gasworks photo, though, so I'll have a look at the Remembering Auld Ayr group. As an Australian, the first thing that strikes me is the brown brickwork of Ayr. I wonder if the Duke Street houses were built of the same?
Regards,
Andrew Palmer
Signal-box is unsurprisingly dark & grubby. There used to be a lot of coal-wagons passing it.
Many houses and other buildings in Ayr are built of red sandstone, some of blond sandstone. Some just have sandstone frontages. Some houses are rendered brick.
Tomorrow and Sunday is Ayrshire "Doors Open" weekend when public are invited to tour buildings they might not normally see inside. See website "Doors Open 2018" for list, info + some pics .
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Thanks, Adam