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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Poppyjoey on Sunday 29 December 13 15:56 GMT (UK)
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This name has been transcribed as Mary E Douglass (Manchester 1878) but I'm not absolutely convinced it does say Mary. She appears on the 1881 census in the household of my G/Grandfather William Walker(Manchester 1862). She is listed as a grandchild of the head of the household - Elizabeth Walker(Leek 1825). I have only found one sibling for William, who was in the household, Agnes 1865. I'm trying to find out about this 3 year old, as it may be the child of another sibling of William. So far, all I can come up with is a Mary Florence Douglas, Manchester 1878.
Can anyone help?
Thank you.
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Looks like it to me - with the bottom part of the "y" running in to the abbreviated William below.
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Thanks Ray,
That's what I thought at first, but the last bit of 'Mary' seems to tail off to the right towards the full stop, so wasn't sure. It would help if I cow;d fine a birth for Mary E Douglass!
Cheers
Julie
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Just what I thought Poppyjoey. Could Elizabeth Walker 1825 have been married before her marriage to Mr Walker or could she have had a child out of wedlock before marriage? Kit
ps. mind you, can't suggest any alternative for Mary.
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Hi Kit,
So far I've not been able to find a marriage for Elizabeth to James Walker, I need to investigate further with that. I only had my little 'breakthrough' to find William Walker's mother's name was Elizabeth today. Prior to today I just knew his father was James Walker from William's marriage cert. Elizabeth came from Leek, but the census entry has them in Manchester and the children born in Manchester. I can't find an 1871 census entry for the family…..
Thanks
Julie
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Hi - don't want to throw a spanner in the works here, but could it be an abbreviation of Margery?
The full stop after the name makes me think it might be a short version of name & there are a
couple of Margery E Douglass entries on Google.
Regards
Everlea.
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The full stop implies an abbreviation although the other abbreviated names do not have one. Marjorie could be a candidate.
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Hello,
Thanks so much for your suggestions. I'm working, (with no luck so far!), through female names starting with Mar.
Julie
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Is this the family at 1, Carver St, Chorlton Upon Medlock? As Agnes is 16 and mum Elizabeth is a Widow aged 56, could she have had older children who are not showing on this census? I agree, I can't find them in the 1871 census.
Kit
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This name has been transcribed as Mary E Douglass (Manchester 1878) but I'm not absolutely convinced it does say Mary.
She appears on the 1881 census in the household of my G/Grandfather William Walker(Manchester 1862).
She is listed as a grandchild of the head of the household - Elizabeth Walker(Leek 1825). I have only found one sibling for William, who was in the household, Agnes 1865.
I'm trying to find out about this 3 year old, as it may be the child of another sibling of William.
Have tried you looking for her on the 1891 census?
Perhaps her pob may not be Manchester (it's dittoed as Manchester on 1881c)
So far I've not been able to find a marriage for Elizabeth to James Walker, I need to investigate further with that.
Elizabeth Walker born c1825 Leek looks to be living with her brother James NEWBY at School Farm Warbrick
he died 1933 probate to Emma NEWBY spinster (his daughter) living with him 1891.
There this marriage entry FreeBMD & Lancashire BMD
Marriage 1856 Salford
Elizabeth NEWBY name on same page James WALKER
1856 Salford Register Office or Registrar Attended Salford
NEWBY Elizabeth
WALKER James
possible baptism from Lancashire OPC
Baptism: 9 Mar 1828 St John the Baptist, Tunstall, Lancashire, England
Betty Newby
Baptism: 20 Dec 1831 St John the Baptist, Tunstall, Lancashire, England
James Newby
Abode: Leck James Newby Occ Farmer mother Mary
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Ladyhawk,
I've not been able to find anything else for a Mary E Douglas….. but I will keep looking!
Thank you for the info about Elizabeth Newby being a possible match as spouse of James Walker. What year census is she with a brother James Newby?
Kit,
Yes, that's the census entry I found, but I still can't find them in 1871! I've so far not found any other possible children of James and Elizabeth. One of them may be the parent of the Mary E Douglas.
Many thanks
Julie
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Well done Ladyhawk, looks promising. Kit
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Thank you for the info about Elizabeth Newby being a possible match as spouse of James Walker. What year census is she with a brother James Newby?
Apologies it's the 1891 census RG12; Piece: 3452; Folio: 18; Page: 8
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Ladyhawk - Found it! You've really given me something to go on, thank you!
I need to check out the marriage you found in 1856, and I would hope there are more children as the earliest one I could fine was William 1862. Hopefully a female child who married a Douglas……
Thank you
Julie
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RG 9; Piece: 2900; Folio: 52; Page: 6
I wonder if this is James & Elizabeth Walker on 1861 census
22 Hyde St Hulme Manchester
James Walker 44 Cheshire Coachman
Elizabeth ditto 33 Leek westmorland
James ditto 13 Manchester
George ditto 11 ditto
Mary Newby ditto 7 bis?ham
Alice Newby 3 Manchester
Thomas ditto 1 Manchester
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The only children of James & Elizabeth Walker I'd found so far were born at 22 Hyde St! It all ties in! Thank you so much for your help Ladyhawk. I don't know how you found the census entries so quickly…I struggled.
Julie
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RG 9; Piece: 2900; Folio: 52; Page: 6
I wonder if this is James & Elizabeth Walker on 1861 census
22 Hyde St Hulme Manchester
James Walker 44 Cheshire Coachman
Elizabeth ditto 33 Leek westmorland
James ditto 13 Manchester
George ditto 11 ditto
Mary Newby ditto 7 bis?ham
Alice Newby 3 Manchester
Thomas ditto 1 Manchester
I haven't found the above Walker family in 1871 but I think that James Walker was previously married wife Ann and two children older children Charles 11 & Sarah 7
1851 census son James age 4 & George age 1 his occupation is coachman
HO107; Piece: 2232; Folio: 40; Page: 72
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I'm going to be busy tomorrow, getting my head around all this. I am so chuffed….thank you….
Julie
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If Mary was 3 yrs old in April 1881, she was much more likely to have been born in 1877 rather than 1878. Have you ruled out:-
Dec 1877
DOUGLAS Mary Ellen Leigh 8c 277
Also have you checked out the Baptism registers for the local churches?
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I'd not seen this baptism you suggest - I only came across the census entry yesterday, when I queried if it does indeed say 'Mary'. So I've not a chance to check anything out yet, though your suggestion is very promising. Thank you for posting. I have plenty to check out now!
Julie
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Managed to find this Walker family in the 1871 census, under the name 'Walder'…..mother Elizabeth is absent, though father James says he's married, and mother reappears in 1881. Also absent are the 'Newby' or 'Newby Walker' children…..
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Managed to find this Walker family in the 1871 census, under the name 'Walder'…..mother Elizabeth is absent, though father James says he's married, and mother reappears in 1881. Also absent are the 'Newby' or 'Newby Walker' children…..
for info. here's the link for the 1871 census you mention above
(no occupation given for father James ) :( living 5 Carver St
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KD6W-6XM
I wonder if these might be William’s & Agnes H christenings at
St Mary Hulme parents James Walker & Elizabeth
William 22 Jun 1862
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FM18-3HD
Agnes Harriet 9 Oct 1864
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FM18-7JL
Agnes Harriet Walker age 19 occ Machinist father James Dec’d occ Porter
Marriage Date: 18 May 1883 St John the Baptist Hulme
Robert Myers occ Clerk father Robert occ Clerk
Both single, both residence 24 Blanshard St., Witnesses James & Fanny Stott
1881 census living 1 Carver St., Agnes' occupation is Machinist
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQZB-BFV
Christenings Cathedral Manchester parents James Walker & Elizabeth
Alice 13 Jun 1858
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NGKG-PGC
Thomas 1 Jul 1860
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J3QH-LJV
from Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1901 (Cathedral)
St Mary, St Denys and St George Manchester
Alice born 26th Jun(y) 1858 & Thomas born 12th Feb 1860
father James Walker occ given Ominbus Conductor/Proprietor, abode Manchester
Haven't located mother Elizabeth born c1825 Leek on the 1871 census either :(
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Hi Ladyhawk,
I'm sure they are the christenings of William and Agnes as they were christened from 22 Hyde St, which is the address in the 1861 census for the family.
The two older children on the 1861, James and George, are probably from the previous marriage you suggested.
It looks like the baptisms you have found for Alice and Thomas relate to the Alice and Thomas Newby (as they are shown on the 1861) doesn't it? Possibly, as Mary Newby Walker was born before the marriage of James and Elizabeth, she was given both names….but not sure why Alice and Thomas were given Newby too, unless the census taker meant the 'ditto' to only apply to Walker! And why did they not revert to calling Mary just Mary Walker once they had married?
There is a baptism in Poulton-le-Fylde in 1854 for a Mary Newby with mother's maiden name Newby, but the census entry states Bispham, and while the two places are very close, I can't see why they would put Bispham on the census if it was Poulton-le-Fylde!
Thanks for your help with this
Julie
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the baptisms you have found for Alice and Thomas relate to the Alice and Thomas Newby
(as they are shown on the 1861) doesn't it?
There is a baptism in Poulton-le-Fylde in 1854 for a Mary Newby with mother's maiden name Newby
can't see why they would put Bispham on the census if it was Poulton-le-Fylde
Hello Julie - Happy New Year
I think Alice & Thomas from 1861 c surname is dittoed as Walker rather than Newby Walker
There are these two baptism records for a Mary NEWBY at All Hallows Bispham – nothing for a Mary Walker or Mary Newby Walker
Bispham with Norbeck, Poulton le Fylde and Blackpool are all in the Flyde Registration District
Don't know if the following will help
FreeBMD
Mary Newby Sep 1853 Flyde vol 8e page 476
Lancashire BMD
Mary Newby 1853 Poulton-le-Flyde mmn LONGDEN
Lancashire OPC
Mary Newby 28 Aug 1853 dau of James NEWBY occ Lab. & Ann,
son Thomas was bpt 1856
FreeBMD
1850 Manchester
James NEWBY name on same page Anne LONGDEN
1861c RG 9; Piece: 3150; Folio: 91; Page: 11
James Newby b1831 Leek & Ann plus children Mary 1854 Bispham, son Thomas & others
The above James Newby appears to be the same one from the 1891 census with Elizabeth Walker
FreeBMD
Mary Newby Jun 1854 Flyde vol 8e page 551
Lancashire OPC
Mary Newby 21 May 1854 dau of Nicholas NEWBY occ Lab. & Elizabeth
- not seeing seeing this family on 1861c I cannot find a marriage either for NW to Elizabeth :(
Could this the same Mary Newby 1854 Poulton-le-Flyde mmn NEWBY on Lancashire BMD :-\
also wondering if Nicholas Newby is James' brother as James was ch. 1831 Leck parents James & Mary
1837 Leck Nicholas NEWBY parents James & Mary
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NXD6-XMT
Still looking to see if I can find the connection of Mary E Douglass born c1878 to the Walker or Newby family
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Hi,
Thank you, and a happy new year to you too.
I've not found anything more for Mary E Douglas yet….I have tried to find a marriage for Alice Walker to a Douglas, seeing as Elizabeth Walker claimed Mary was her grandchild on the 1881 (a Nuby - Newby? is also on this census, lends weight to Elizabeth being a Newby). So far I can't find any further daughters, the only other one being Agnes Harriett who married a Myers.
I have found a death for a Mary Newby Walker in Manchester, born c1853, died 1881. I can't find her and mother Elizabeth Walker on the 1871 census….I wonder if Mary was unwell and they had gone off somewhere, though they should still show up on a census.
Julie
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I have found a death for a Mary Newby Walker in Manchester, born c1853, died 1881.
I can't find her and mother Elizabeth Walker on the 1871 census….
possibilities for Elizabeth & Mary on 1871 c
Elizabeth Walker pob written as Leck Westmoreland on the 1861 census
Looks to me as if it states Elizabeth age 47 is married pob Westmorland occ. Cook on
1871c RG10; Piece: 4007; Folio: 112; Page: 18
Mary Newby age 17 (1854) pob Bispham Servant living in Yorkshire on
1871c RG10; Piece: 4458; Folio: 79; Page: 33
have look and see what you think -
** have just amended census ref. Elizabeth gave same one as Mary's ::)
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Hi, I've had a look thanks. It certainly seems more than likely that you've found mother Elizabeth and daughter Mary in 1871. It fits in with father James being unemployed doesn't it - sending the eldest daughter out to work, and possibly service was the only work she could get. Possibly James wasn't fit enough to work which is why Elizabeth had to. James was dead by 1881.
The death in Manchester for a Mary Newby Walker seems too much of a coincidence of name, yet Mary called herself Newby if it is her on the 1871.
It just shows how you need to study the census entries closely… I'd been looking for Elizabeth Newby born in Leek, until you pointed out it's Lech/Leck in Westmorland! Thank you!
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Although we haven't found anything else for your Mary E Douglass - hoping that somewhere along the line we may get a breakthrough by looking at the Newby / Walker families
You may need to obtain a certificate or two for confirmation when you are certain you have the correct people that relate to your family
for info. this looks to be James Walker who married Ann
Charles Walker age 1 with parents James occ Coachman & Ann living Ford St Salford HO107; Piece: 585; Book: 6; Civil Parish: Salford ED 8; Folio: 31; Page: 7;
10 Oct 1841 Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Charles James Walker age 23 months f James occ Coachman m Nancy
Abode Salford, also a Bapt. on the same day to same parents Caroline Walker
The name Nancy is a variant of Ann
1846 Sarah Ann f James Walker occ Coachman m Ann
born 20 Aug 1844
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NY2G-VFN
marriage 14 Nov 1838
James Walker coachman Gt Ducie St Strangeways f James Lab.
Nancy Harrison 1 Stanley St Salford f John stonemason
Both single, both f/a both signed Witness Samuel & Ann Hall
It just shows how you need to study the census entries closely… I'd been looking for Elizabeth Newby born in Leek, until you pointed out it's Lech/Leck in Westmorland! Thank you!
I've been looking at Leek thinking that Leck was a spelling mistake ::) but then remembered I'd seen Elizabeth's pob as Westmorland on 1861 so looked again
from Genuki
LECK, a township-chapelry in Tunstall parish, Lancashire.....and on the Ingleton railway, adjacent to the boundaries with Yorkshire and Westmoreland
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Leck/
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I ordered the MC for James & Elizabeth yesterday. Although I feel certain the marriage you found in 1856 is the correct couple.
I also found the possible 1840 census entry you've referred to. Also, I found an 1851 entry, with James 1816 a coachman, Ann 1815, Charles 1840, Sarah A 1844, James 1847 and George 1850. James and George are on the 1861 with their 1/2 siblings who James had with Elizabeth.
I had got nowhere with this branch for over two years until the last couple of days when I stumbled across my G Grandfather William Walker in 1881, as I knew he was a confectioner, and luckily this wasn't a common profession. But he was listed as Wm and it never came up as William, I should have thought to look for Wm! But we learn as we go along. All I knew was his father was called James. Since I found him, it's opened up all these possibilities to check out. It's great to get help, as sometimes it's easy to look at one entry and get carried away, as I did with assuming Elizabeth was born in Leek!
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I ordered the MC for James & Elizabeth yesterday. Although I feel certain the marriage you found in 1856 is the correct couple.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that it's the correct one - if you don't mind when you receive m/c would love to know if it's the correct person :)
seeing as Elizabeth Walker claimed Mary was her grandchild on the 1881 (a Nuby - Newby? is also on this census, lends weight to Elizabeth being a Newby)
I wonder if the Wm Nuby born 1858 Fleetwood on the 1881 census occ Compositor with Elizabeth Walkermight be the son of James Newby & Ann :-\ see 1861 census RG 9; Piece: 3150; Folio: 91; Page: 11
William age 3 (1858) born Fleetwood not seeing a William Nuby born Fleetwood
1891/1901/1911 William Newby born Fleetwood married to Ann/ie and living with his family Isle of Man
1891 RG12; Piece: 4689; Folio: 59; Page: 5 occ Foreman Printer
1901 RG13; Piece: 5303; Folio: 103; Page: 5 occ Printer Stationer & Tobacconist
ADDED a possible match for his marriage
FreeBMD marriage 1881 Flyde
William Newby to Ann Johnson
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NX1C-SZY
1881 marriage William born 1858 father named James
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I'll definitely let you know when I get the MC. I really hope it's the right couple!
I didn't expect 'Nuby' to exist as a real name, but it does, however, I would think it's Newby in this circumstance, would you?, and it is Elizabeth's nephew. Everything ties in, though I know this doesn't mean anything is definite…...
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I've received the MC for James Walker & Elizabeth ….Newby! Everything ties in …. he was an omnibus conducter, a widow, aged 40. Ties in with birth c1816 I have for him in the censuses, also being married before, father was also James, a turnkey (prison warder). Elizabeth was a 29 year old spinster living in Salford at time of marriage.
I'm really pleased…..
Thanks so much for your help with this.
Julie