RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Calmasis on Thursday 19 December 13 12:59 GMT (UK)
-
Hi all. I'm having difficulty finding the parents of my great-great-granddad, as well as anything on his early life.
He was called James McIntosh. According to the censuses he was on, he was born in 1867 in Elgin. He married a Mary McDonald in 1892 in Perthshire, and the marriage record said his parents were George McIntosh, a fisherman, & Annie McIntosh née Gold, both deceased.
I have James on the 1891-1911 censuses, as well as his marriage & death certificates. I'm just having difficulty finding him on the 1871/1881 censuses, as well as any record of his parents existing.
I've checked all the statutory records of people called Ann marrying people called George McIntosh, and none of them are right. Same with the parish marriage records. In fact, there's no record of an Ann McIntosh née Gold dying in Scotland at all. Which makes me think he either got his parents names wrong, or they just didn't marry. I also think he may have gotten his date/place of birth wrong, since none of the James McIntoshes on the 1871 census said they were born in 1867 in Elgin.
Can anyone help me out?
Thanks in advance!
-
First thing that comes to mind is possible variations of that surname - have you searched for M*intosh as well?
(PS. Welcome to rootschat)
-
Hi
I did a search on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
James M*cintosh born 1866-1868 moray in Elgin you only get 1 hit it turns out this one is 1867.
Worth a look
Yours Aye
BruceL
-
Hi
What was james's occupation on his marriage cert?
Norma
-
Ruskie, yeah, I've been checking for variations of McIntosh. (And thank you!)
bleckie, thanks! I checked that record, and unfortunately it says his parents were Donald McDonald & Isabella Gilbert, so I think it's the wrong one.
higgsy, James was a joiner on his marriage certificate & on the censuses as well.
-
Is it possible that he was illegitimate and resgistered under his mother's surname?
According to the censuses he was on, he was born in 1867 in Elgin.
The census never gives a year of birth. It tells you what age the person said they were on the date of the census. The census is always taken around the end of March, a quarter of the way through the year. So only a quarter of people have had their birthday in census year before the date of the census. Therefore if you 'calculate' the year of birth by subtracting the age from the year of the census, you get the wrong answer three times out of four. So if your James said in 1891 that he was 24, he is more likely to have been born in 1866 than in 1867, assuming he wasn't either lying or miscalculating.
Not sure if that is particularly helpful, however. But it might help to widen your search a bit.
-
Just for background in terms of census, this looks to be the family in 1901, all the children born in Kilfauns (?):
James Mcintosh 34, wright b. Elgin, Morayshire
Mary Mcintosh 29 b. Dunkeld, Perthshire
George Mcintosh 7
Mary Mcintosh 6
James Mcintosh 4
Marjory Mcintosh 1
Address: Burnfoot Joiner's House, Kinfauns, Perthshire
Monica
-
Norma, I know you asked about occupation much earlier...let's speculate with that 1901 entry ;D
1891? Think you may have this already Calmasis?
John Haddon 34 farm servant, b. Farnell, Forfarshire
Annie Haddon 29 b. Urquhart, Rossshire
Maggie A Haddon 2 b. Dundee, Forfarshire
James McIntosh 24, nephew, joiner b. Elgin
Address: Stobsmuir, Dundee
Monica
-
Forfarian: it's possible he was illegitimate, I suppose. His marriage certificate said that his parents were married, which made me think he was legitimate. I know the information about parents on marriage records is self reported though, so he could well have been wrong if his parents had died while he was still young.
I know the census doesn't give a year of birth, but I figured it was kind of long winded to say "in 1891 he said he was 24 which means he was probably born in about 1867". As I said, I think he probably got his date of birth wrong anyway, since there's no James McIntosh with his age/place of birth on the 1881 or 1871 census.
Thank you for the suggestion, though.
MonicaL: Yeah, those are the censuses I have for him in 1891 & 1901! Although Ancestry said James was a visitor in the house, not a nephew. Was it mistranscribed?
-
It wasn't mistranscribed...just my human error :P He certainly showed as a visitor in 1891, not nephew.
Wishful thinking on my part for you maybe ;)
Monica
-
Just adding this as thoughts to try and help.... ;)
I did a search for 1881 for a James born c. 1867 in Elgin who may already be showing as an apprentice joiner, and I found one!
I think this is a summary on him, from what I can see:
James Thomson or Murdoch (as indexed), likely the illegitimate son of a James Murdoch and a Margaret Thomson born in late 1866 in Elgin https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ2K-Z54
There is a marriage between a Margaret Thomson and a Hugh Fraser in 1870 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYSX-78Z
1871 shows Hugh and Margaret here:
Hugh Fraser 27 Joiner House b. Rafford
Margaret Fraser 23 Joiner House Wife b. Elgin
James Thomson 27, lodger, joiner b. Elgin
Geo Thomson 19, lodger, labourer b. Elgin
Address: 41 Church St, Dumbarton
I think this is young James with maternal grandparents for 1871:
Alexander Thompson 57 crofter b. Aberdeen
Margaret Thompson 57 b. Cromarty, rossshire
Jessie Thompson 17 b. Elgin
James MacDoch (as transcribed, likely meant to be Murdoch) 4 grandchild b. Elgin
Address: Milton Duff, Elgin
1881:
Hugh Fraser 37, Joiner Employing 1 Boy, b. Rafford, Moraysh.
Maggie Fraser 33, b. Elgin, Moraysh.
James Fraser 14, son, Joiner (Apprentice) b. Elgin
George Fraser 7, son b. Partick, Lanarkshire
Address: 24 Church Street, Partick, Govan, Lanarkshire
1891...and no sign of James in household, which I am viewing as a good sign for now!:
Hugh Fraser 40, Hatter & Clothier, b. Rafford Clothier
Maggie T Fraser 37, dressmaker b. Milton Duffy, Elgin
Annie Fraser 20, niece b. Forres, Elgin
George Fraser 17 son, Druggist, b. Partick
Alexander Grant 18 nephew Boatyard Slipper b. Aberdeen
Address: 481 Dumbarton Rd, Partick, Govan, Lanarkshire
That is as far as I have got....
Monica
-
I might as well finish on the censuses for this crew!
A number of changes to occupation for Hugh Fraser. 1901 has this entry:
Hugh Frazer 57 Insurance Agent b. Rafford, Morayshire
Maggie Frazer 53 b. Elgin, Morayshire
Jean Frazer 13 niece b. Glasgow
Agnes Frazer 43 visitor b. Morton, dumfrieshire
Address: 481 Dumbarton Rd, Partick, Govan, Lanarkshire
And also, young George, now married by 1901:
George Fraser 26 Life Insurance Agent b. Govan
Jessie Fraser 26 b. Aberdeen
James Mcpherson 25 boarder b. Ireland
Address: 99 Hozier St, Partick Govan
Monica
-
Am I right in thinking from what I have seen that this is the list of children, in order, for James and Mary McDonald following their 1892 marriage?
I have made some (quite a few ::) ;)) guesses to see whether with the new info, we could get the children's names to fit Scottish naming pattern (see for example here http://myweb.wyoming.com/~msaban/SCTname.htm). My notes on the side are simple guesses.
George...for his father if McIntosh....or for his brother if Fraser?
Mary...for Mary McIntosh, Mary McDonald's mother?
James...for him...or his father Murdoch?
Marjory...?
Donald...for Mary McDonald's father?
Margaret...for James Fraser's mother and/or maternal grandmother?
Alexander ...for James Fraser's maternal grandfather or Mary's who was also called Alexander McIntosh I believe?
Hector...?
Christina...?
Edward...?
Were any surnames used at registrations or in later years as middles names for any of the above that might help now?
To make all this fit and explain why James adopted a new identity away from Fraser/Thomson etc, there would have to have been a big falling out between James and family between 1881-91.
As I said though from the beginning, all guesses and speculation really 8)
Monica
-
I have nothing to add, but would just like to congratulate you Monica for such great detective work! Calmasis will be thrilled! ;D
-
Me thinks I have guessed & speculated too many times...or more than I normally feel comfortable with! I spent some time again this am, likely everybody, trying to find a trace of James b. 1867 Elgin. This is the only thing I can see, but that doesn't make it right necessarily ;)
Monica
-
Speculation perhaps, but still, the information looks tempting. ;) Plenty for Calmasis to consider anyway. :)
-
MonicaL: Wow! That's amazing. Thank you for putting so much effort into this. I looked into it, and
unfortunately I found a record of death for a James Thomson/Murdoch aged 68 in Aberdeen in 1938, so I'm assuming he's not my James.
The thought that he might have changed his name is an excellent idea & not one that I'd considered. Assuming he was born in Moray, it's quite a move to Perth, which would fit if he'd run away from home. I'm planning on asking my grandmother if she can tell me anything about James. He died when she was quite young, but she might be able to remember something, and if he did run away from home he might have mentioned it to someone.
I'm assuming that James & Mary didn't follow the traditional naming pattern. Here's the list of their children I have:
George McIntosh (after James' dad?)
Mary McIntosh (after Mary)
James McIntosh (after James)
Hamish McIntosh
Marjory McIntosh (after Mary's mum)
Donald McIntosh (after Mary's dad)
Margaret McIntosh (after Mary's sister)
Alaster McIntosh
Hector McIntosh
Christina McIntosh (after Mary's sister)
As you can see, the names don't really match up with the traditional naming pattern. But the names of James' children being potentially indicative of James' family is something else I hadn't considered, and which could be really helpful. Thank you!
-
:'( :'( :'(....see, imagination running wild! We nearly had an obit written up for him ;)
I tried to find James Thomson b. Elgin in later censuses but failed, to try and eliminate him. Guess the death cert you have found from 1938 was fairly conclusive match to his birth details from what you say.
Onwards and upwards!
Monica
-
Calmasis, I have the same people in my tree and have hit the same brick wall. James McIntosh from Elgin is my grandfather. just getting back into searching again after a break. I have been told that there could be a link to George McIntosh in Lossiemouth. But cannot find anything that I could confirm. The next search that might reveal something is looking into the witnesses at James and Marys wedding. I have to get back on Ancestry to find where I put them. Will let you know if I come up with anything more.
Sandra
-
I'm assuming that James & Mary didn't follow the traditional naming pattern. Here's the list of their children I have:
George McIntosh (after James' dad?)
Mary McIntosh (after Mary)
James McIntosh (after James)
Hamish McIntosh
I find that very curious, because Hamish is the anglicised spelling of the vocative* case of the Gaelic version of James, Seumas. It seems that in the 19th century people were aware of this, because the earliest use of it as a separate name was in 1880. It was used 40 times between 1880 and 1899, 1500 times 1900 to 1949 and 2541 times between 1950 and 1999.
So if your James named one son James and another son Hamish, was he trying to name his sons after two different Jameses in his family? Or did he and his wife just fancy the sound of 'Hamish' without knowing what its origin is? Or (perish the thought) are James and Hamish one and the same person?
*Digression - The vocative case is the version of the name that would be used to attract the attention of that person, so in effect 'Hamish' means 'Hey, Jimmy!' (or 'Hey, James!' if you prefer the full name). It is arrived at by aspirating the beginning of the name, which has the effect of changing the 'sh' sound represented by 'S' to an 'h' sound.
Further digression - this is why the given name Mhàiri, anglicised as Vari, grates on my ear. It is the vocative of the Gaelic Màiri, so it means 'Hey, Mary!', and instead of demonstrating the parents' desire to give the child a Gaelic name, it demonstrates only their lack of understanding of what the actual Gaelic name is. I note that the first 'Mhairi' occurred as late as 1904, and that there were just 192 of them between 1904 and 1949, but a vast rise to 5221 between 1950 and 1999. It is difficult to do a similar analysis for 'Vari' because of confusion with Vera and/or Valerie in indexes.
-
Just looked at my research into James McIntosh and what I have been looking at is the Scotland census from 1871 to 1891 where there is a James listed as a grandson born about 1871 one lists him born in Archistown Morayshire, the others in Knockando Morayshire. Grandparents were John and Anne and in 1881 lived at the Old Semeil. By 1891 James occupation was sawmiller. They were in Huntly Aberdeenshire.
There is also a James McIntosh in the 1891 Dundee Stobsmuir Censis with him listed as a visitor, birth date 1867, born Elgin Morayshire as a joiner.
Looking at the witnesses at his wedding, I found a William Fyfe at Lossiemouth, spouses name as Jane. One of the witnesses was Jessie Kay Angus. Could Jane be Jessie? I have also found a Jane Ann Jessie Angus as a Proprioter and James McIntosh as a Tennant in the Valuation Rolls of Blairgowrie in 1875.
If he was bording and/or living with relatives, maybe his parents died very young.
That might give us a few more lines of enquiry.
Sandra
-
A bit more that I have found about the witnesses at James McIntosh and Mary McDonalds wedding.
In 1861 census Elgin Moray - a George McIntosh (age 66 - b1795) was living as brother-in-law. Head being John Kay (age 69) and wife Ann Kay (age 70). George's occupation was retired boat maker.
John Kay had a son Alexander Kay b 1816 who was a timber merchant.
I have George's parents listed as George McIntosh (1745-1818) and Margaret Campbell married in 1774. This George could have died in the US. I cannot find where I have the reference to where I got this information from, but it started with the 1861 census and went from there. We could have lost a generation or two here. Maybe there are some who went to US and then returned.
As James was a joiner and timber runs in the family, it could be something.
More as I sift through my notes.
Sandra
-
Hi Calmasis, Sandra here again. Just wondering what your connection to James and Mary are. My father was Edward, the youngest. I am going to look overseas for the marriage of George McIntosh and Annie Gold and will let you know if I find anything. No stuff anywhere to confirm anything so far.
Happy looking,
Sandra
-
Forfarian: I have James & Hamish as both being born in 1897, and they were on different censuses, so I'm assuming it's just that I misinterpreted it and listed them as two different people. That's pretty interesting, thank you!
Sandram: Wow, hi! It's somewhat reassuring to know that other people in the family have been struggling to find stuff about James :P. My grandmother is the daughter of George; James & Mary's oldest child. So I think that would make you my grandma's cousin? I still haven't asked her if she knows anything about James, which I really should.
Your posts about the possibility of James potentially living with the witnesses on his marriage certificate are really interesting.
Please do keep me updated. I'm working on a different side of my family tree currently, but I'll be sure to tell you if I find out anything about James.
-
Just looked at my research into James McIntosh and what I have been looking at is the Scotland census from 1871 to 1891 where there is a James listed as a grandson born about 1871 one lists him born in Archistown Morayshire, the others in Knockando Morayshire.
Just noticed this.
The village of Archiestown is in the parish of Knockando.
-
Just a query I’m intrigued If
anyone involved in this post involved with old semeil strathdon
Ryan