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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Brian1 on Friday 13 December 13 21:33 GMT (UK)
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I have an ancester born in 1826 in Galway, Ireland who would appear to have been transported to Australia around 1854 and to have ended up in Darlinghurst goal NSW.
Are there any prison records online that can shed any light as to his crime and the date of his entrance to Darlinghurst. I think he would have been out of prison as he was in Sydney in 1865 and married a Mary Margaret Carling in 1859 in Newcastle NSW. He died later in New Zealand in 1881
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Hi
Information on marriage on this site http://www.jenwilletts.com/search.htm
Muss
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Hi
He may not be the convict John Cordial http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13027723?searchTerm=cordial john&searchLimits=fromyyyy=1859|||frommm|||fromdd|||toyyyy=1859|||tomm|||todd
Muss
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Many thanks Muss. It worked a treat. Just entered his name and details of the marriage came straight away
Many thanks
Brian
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Hi Muss,
I have the details of the marriage, but I also had details of a John Cordial aboard a convict which unfortunately i have mislaid. I suspect it is the same person as the surname Cordial is quite rare and the dates also tally.
I was trying to get the reason for his transportation.
Brian
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Just found the details of John's transportation. He came over on the Matchless and his goal number was 1319.
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Transportation of convicted persons from Britain effectively ceased to NSW in 1840.
The Matchless came from California to Sydney.
ADD : 1319 and 1320 ARE THE PRISONERS MENTIONED IN THE CUTTING BELOW :)
There is an index at NSW State Records Office that shows a John CORDIAL aged 27, a crewman on the ship Maria arriving from Melbourne to Sydney. The remarks column of the index has “Stewart, Scotland”. The actual image shows that John Cordial was the ship’s Stewart and he was from Scotland and the ship arrived in Sydney on May 15 1855.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=43
Ancestry has a partnership arrangement with NSW SRO, whereby SOME of the NSW SRO holdings from part of their archives that are held on microfilm (most of the archives are not yet on microfilm), have been uploaded to Ancestry’s subscription site.
There’s a John Cordial, aged 28, from Hobart to Sydney on the Violar, arriving 25 Nov 1856. That chap was the Cook and Steward. All the crew are noted as England.
The 1854 Darlinghurst Gaol mention has John Cordial, born 1827, ex the Matchless, and standing 4ft 8, slight build, fresh complexion, can read and write.
TROVE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12954370 SMH 30 May 1854
Christopher Murray, Alfred Moss and John Cordier, three seaman attached to the schooner Matchless, were charged with stealing portions of the cargo…. Captain Webster stated that he had commanded the vessel during her last voyage from San Francisco….. determined to take proceedings against the prisoners at Honolulu ….. not a British port ….. wait until he got to Sydney …… He frequently saw the cook (Cordier) …. Bottle or two and stow them away under his bunk …… Moss and Cordier to twelve weeks’ imprisonment with hard labour. The other man was discharged …. Not sufficient to sustain conviction”
Cheers, JM
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Wondering if this is your man
1841 Wales Census
District Infantry Barracks
Llanllwchaiar, Newtown, Montgomeryshire, Wales
Elizabeth Cordial 35, b Ireland
John Cordial 15, b Ireland
Eliza Cordial 9, b "F" ?
Maria Cordial 7, b "F" ?
Margaret Cordial 10 Mo, not born in Montgomeryshire
There are quite few family groups at these barracks, some with women and children some with whole families. Men's occupations given as 'soldier'.
There is also this unassisted passage from Tasmania
John CORDIAL, 30, cook and steward, English
Port of Departure: Hobart, Tasmania
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 25 Nov 1856
Vessel Name: Violar
The list says he is English but shipping records are often wrong. This is a small ship with 2 passengers and 6 crew.
The 1854 entry in Gaol Description and Entrance Books does not give his crime unfortunately, only some physical characteristics plus infromation that you already have:
John Cordial, 27
Birth Year: 1827
Arrived 1854 per Matchless
Date of Admission/Photo: 1854
Gaol: Darlinghurst New South Wales
Record Type: Description Book
JM's find from TROVE would explain why he went directly to gaol.
Would a cook/steward gaol prisoner be marrying only 5 years later as a 'clerk from London'? Possible
Judith
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I am a little mystified by your John being transported to NSW 1854, are you sure you have the right bloke. TRANSPORTATION to NSW stopped around 1842?
Neil
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;D ;D ;D
Can I type SNAP .... Yep, we are all on the same track :)
Add ... the court reporter simply could not read his own shorthand and so the cutting says CORDIER whereas the court records show CORDIAL ;D
Cheers, JM
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Sorry - should have done a new post - edited my earlier one to add:
JM's find from TROVE would explain why he went directly to gaol.
Would a cook/steward gaol prisoner be marrying only 5 years later as a 'clerk from London'? Possible :-\
Judith
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Seems he may have got around a bit or, there are a few John CORDIAL's. One in WA, one in Queensland, one in NSW and is he the same one that went to NZ. ???
Neil
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Yes, (he could become a clerk from London) afterall he could read and write and one of those shipping records has him as English, while the other has him as Scottish. I read he was an incompetent cook :) . Matchless was not transporting convicts, in fact it seems to have been a Schooner !
Compulsory secular education in NSW does not get underway until Henry Parkes 1880, so it is entirely possible he became a competent clerk ;D. Those in NSW in the 1860s were mostly new arrivals suffering from gold fever.
The population of NSW in 1846 was 154,534 (so after convictism ceased and before Victoria was hived off from NSW)
The population of NSW in 1856 was 266, 189 (so after Victoria was hived off, and after the gold rushes had commenced).
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=660501.0
Cheers, JM
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Many thanks for all your contributions.
Maybe I have maligned the man.
Doesn't seem possible that he was on the Matchless from California. He is certainly the same guy mentioned in the garrison town in Wales in the 1841 census with his mother, father ( listed elsewhere in the census with the Rifles brigade at the barracks ) and his siblings.
Many thanks
Brian
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Guess the guy from the Matchless was a John CORDIER which was mis- transcribed as CORDIAL.
He did travel onto New Zealand and had a very chequered history there!!!
Brian
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I am not so sure that you can discount the John CORDIAL on the Matchless. In 1841 he was, as we know, with his parents in Wales. Obviously, as he was born in Ireland, he would be familiar with sea travel. Aberystwyth, (44 miles away from Newtown),is mentioned thus by Wikipedia:
The port of Aberystwyth, although it is small and relatively inconsequential today, used to be an important Atlantic Ocean entryway. It was used to ship locally, to Ireland and even as a Transatlantic departure point. Commercially, the once important Cardiganshire lead mines shipped out of this locations also.
Seems possible that he went to sea, and crewed on the Matchless. Where were his parents by 1851? As he would have been 25 by then it would be surprising if he was still with them.
Judith
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Hi Judith,
Thanks for your thoughts. I suppose it is possible. The next piece of evidence after the 1841 census is that his parents and some of the family have returned to Ireland and where he was born in Galway.
I next pick them up on the Griffith valuation tables in Clare Galway ( 8 miles from Galway city ) in1855.
Regards
Brian
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Hi
Interesting http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NEM18690208.2.7&srpos=20&e=-------10--11----0mary+cordial--
Muss
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There are two children registered for John and Mary CORDIAL in Sydney.
1860 #949, registered Sydney
CORDIAL (FEMALE), parents: John, Mary
1865 #4548, reg St Leonards,
Henry F CORDIAL, parents: John, Mary M
Judith
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Thanks once more for the contributions. I mentioned before John had a chequered history in N Z. I think they had 4 children in total. She had apparently run off at one time with a sea captain
Brian
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Re John CORDIER in the 1854-55 in NSW
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/
There’s also another CORDIER in Australian Waters as crew in that era. Louis Cordier, crew on the 1855 arrivals of the Marie Gabrielle. NSW SRO Index to the Unassisted Arrivals 1842-1855. He was a Frenchman…
Mariners and ships in Australian Waters:
Jan 1855 Marie Gabrielle (F L DALY, Captain) Voyage: London to Sydney)
Second Mate, Louis CORDIER, 35 years, Frenchman.
July 1855 Marie Gabrielle (F DALY, Captain) (Voyage Manila to Sydney, transcribed as Marie Bagrielle)
Bossman, Louis CORDIER, 45 years, France
Re the MATCHLESS and those 3 crewmen subject to court action when landing in Sydney in May 1854
May 1854 Matchless (Webster, Captain, Voyage: San Francisco via Honolulu to Sydney), I note that the arrival papers do not have any reference to any prisoners, and the crew and passenger list does NOT include Christopher MURRAY, Alfred MOSS or John CORDIER (or CORDIAL or any variation). It seems that those clerks putting together those ladings were not exactly reliable/competent …. I think there’s many a clerk who took off to the gold fields rather than sit behind a ledger desk with only natural light to guide them to the blank page.
Re John CORDIAL in 1860s as a clerk ….. not sure (assume this is an occupation listed on 1860s NSW birth certs?)…..
UNSURE because :
June 1861, as crew on the Wonga Wonga, (Captain D WALKER) Voyage Melbourne to Sydney
Jno CORDIAL, Second Cook, age 33
July 1861, as crew, on the Rangatira, (Captain D WALKER) Voyage : Melbourne to Sydney
Jno CORDIAL, Second Cook, age 33, British
August 1861, as crew of the Wonga Wonga (Captain David WALKER) Melbourne to Sydney
John CORDIAL, Second Cook, 32,
July 1865, as crew on the Lady Young (Capt W A CURPHEY), Brisbane to Sydney
John CORDIAL Cook, 37 British
PS, what was name of the Sea Captain that Mary M Cordial "ran off with"
Cheers, JM
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How Many Chaps were named JOHN CORDIAL ????? :) :) :)
There were at least TWO chaps of similar age in New Zealand and named as John CORDIAL as there’s TWO by that name who died, one aged 45, died 1875 and one aged 53, died 1881 (this one would be listed online NZ BDM index) IF you are considering ordering that 1881 record, THE CHEAPER option (Print Out) usually has MORE info on it than the real deal cert.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
Evening Post, Volume XXII, Issue 76, 28 September 1881, Page 2
CORDIAL, On the 27th September, at the Hospital, John Cordial, of paralysis, aged 53 years.
Grey River Argus, Volume XVI, Issue 2026, 4 February 1875, Page 2
CORDIAL On the 19th September 1874, at Christchurch, Canterbury, John Cordial, formerly of the Grey Valley, aged 45 years.
Nelson Evening Mail, Volume III, Issue 168, 18 July 1868, Page 3
NOTICE
The public of Nelson are hereby cauntioned against Purchasing a Patent Siccama FLUTE from Mrs Cordial, as the same is my property. JOHN CORDIAL July 16, 1868.
Cheers, JM