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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: MLHarris on Wednesday 11 December 13 06:59 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for the parents of John Percy harris . I believe he was born in Essex England in 1513 and died in Holtherop, Glouscestershire England in 1544. He was married to Anne Annis and had 4 children, Alice, William, John and Joan. I found his will and that of his wifes....but after months of searching i cannot find any proof of who his parents were and I would really appreciate any guidance as where else to look. Following is the will as taken from Bethia:
JOHN HARRIS 1513-1554 .
John Harris, yeoman, of Hartherup, co. Gloucester, was born at least as early as 1513. He married Anne or Annis _____, perhaps about the year 1533. His will, dated October 22, 1533, and proved June 4, 1544, left the lease of the house in which he dwelt to his daughter Alice Winchcombe, and, if she should die before it expired, the remainder of the term was to belong to her daughter. His two sons, WILLIAM (our direct ancester)and John Harris, received seventy-two acres of land occupied by William Carney, a sheep pasture and also ten sheep and a bullock apiece. The residuary legatee and executrix was his wife Anne Harris, and John Sermon. Peter Fathers and John Chapleyn were named overseers. The witnesses were John George, William Manne and John Sermon..
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The will of Anne Harris, widow, of Hatherup, was made June 17, 1585, and proved Febuary 5, 1585/6. She gave to her daughter Alice Winchkome (Winchcombe) a new gown, three sheets, etc., and made small personal gifts to (GRANDCHILDREN??) Anne, James, John, Thomas Winchkome & ALSO William Harris the younger, Anthony Harris and John Harris the younger, Joan Reve, Alice Kirbie, George and Marie Vincen and Elizabeth Robins. The residuary legatee and executor was Richard Harris..
Sincerely, Marjorie Harris McLean
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Hi
What evidence do you have that he was born in Essex. Where did he marry Ann
Rosie
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I found this Millinium file. I don't know what source creates it but i dont believe the death date is correct on it because of the probate date on the will:
Millennium File
about John Harris Name: John Harris
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 1513
Birth Place: Hathreop, Gloucs, England
Death Date: 1554
Marriage Date: 1533
Spouse: Anne Annis
Children: William Harris; Alice Harris; John Harris
If it has one mistake it may have more
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I found this on a member connect at ancestory so i have no idea if its accurate. I can't acccess UK records and i am on dial up so it is a long, painful process for me, with no results in record finding.
"Marraige 1533 in Hatherup, , Gloucestershire, England to Anne Harris "
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I am looking for the parents of John Percy harris . I believe he was born in Essex England in 1513 and died in Holtherop, Glouscestershire England in 1544. He was married to Anne Annis and had 4 children, Alice, William, John and Joan. I found his will and that of his wifes....but after months of searching i cannot find any proof of who his parents were and I would really appreciate any guidance as where else to look. Following is the will as taken from Bethia:
JOHN HARRIS 1513-1554 .
John Harris, yeoman, of Hartherup, co. Gloucester, was born at least as early as 1513. He married Anne or Annis _____, perhaps about the year 1533. His will, dated October 22, 1533, and proved June 4, 1544, left the lease of the house in which he dwelt to his daughter Alice Winchcombe, and, if she should die before it expired, the remainder of the term was to belong to her daughter. His two sons, WILLIAM (our direct ancester)and John Harris, received seventy-two acres of land occupied by William Carney, a sheep pasture and also ten sheep and a bullock apiece. The residuary legatee and executrix was his wife Anne Harris, and John Sermon. Peter Fathers and John Chapleyn were named overseers. The witnesses were John George, William Manne and John Sermon..
.
The will of Anne Harris, widow, of Hatherup, was made June 17, 1585, and proved Febuary 5, 1585/6. She gave to her daughter Alice Winchkome (Winchcombe) a new gown, three sheets, etc., and made small personal gifts to (GRANDCHILDREN??) Anne, James, John, Thomas Winchkome & ALSO William Harris the younger, Anthony Harris and John Harris the younger, Joan Reve, Alice Kirbie, George and Marie Vincen and Elizabeth Robins. The residuary legatee and executor was Richard Harris..
Sincerely, Marjorie Harris McLean
hi
I found this on a tree in ancestry so you can use this for guidance only as I have no proof of its accuracy John Harris b 1513 died 4th June 1554 married Anne Annys in Gloucester in 1553 Parents Arthur of Prittlewell Harris and Joan (Johanna) Percy who was born in 1505 in Pentworth Sussex and died in 1572 in Southminster Is this where your Essex Connection comes from. The tree says Arthur was Born in Rochford in 1475 and died in Mortimer in 1539 he was the son of William Harris and Elizabeth Jernagan Remember this is just for guidance and info Hope it helps
Ronnie :)
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John Harris b 1513 died 4th June 1554 married Anne Annys in Gloucester in 1553
Parents Arthur of Prittlewell Harris and Joan (Johanna) Percy who was born in 1505 in Pentworth Sussex
That would make Joan 8 years old when she had John :-\
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He married Anne or Annis _____, perhaps about the year 1533. His will, dated October 22, 1533, and proved June 4, 1544, left the lease of the house in which he dwelt to his daughter Alice Winchcombe, and, if she should die before it expired, the remainder of the term was to belong to her daughter. His two sons, WILLIAM (our direct ancester)and John Harris,
The will of Anne Harris, widow, of Hatherup, was made June 17, 1585, and proved Febuary 5, 1585/6. She gave to her daughter Alice Winchkome (Winchcombe) a new gown, three sheets, etc., and made small personal gifts to (GRANDCHILDREN??) Anne, James, John, Thomas Winchkome
Have you actually got a copy of the Will to check the dates, as they are not tying up.
If the Will was written in 1533, then on the dates you give he would be aged 20.
It is also the same year as the date given for a possible marriage.
Yet he is referring to 3 children, the sons being left land, and possibly the daughter already married herself? Implying they are adult. No mention of it being left in trust until they are 21?
Also, if death date is 1554, Will could not have been proved in 1544!
And, again, even if the date it was written was not 1533, BUT if it was proved in 1544, and IF it relates to a man only born 1515ish, he is unlikely to have grown up children .
I think the Will, if the dates are correct, must relate to someone born a lot earlier than the person you are referring to, unless the dates you have for him are incorrect!
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Hello, First I want to thank everyone for helping me. I live on a dirt road out in the country and am having to use Dial up which slows down my record finding a lot. Also, my ignorance as how to find records. I have spent many, many hours trying to find the original will for John Harris and his wife Ann Annis. The will info i have, i found on the internet.
I have what i think are his childrens birth dates, so it does appear that they would have been Quite young in 1544.
*wife Anne Annis(1512-1585)
*Children
Alice Harris1534 1585
William Harris1536 1599
John Harris1540
Joan Harris1541
I have found out on Ancestory that quite a few trees list him as the son Of Arthur Harris, but i cannot find any proof. I found Arthur in the Visitations of Essex but it only lists one son, William. I dont know if that record is complete but its why I am trying to verify my information. I was hoping to find a birth record or such for John,....anything that would list his parents. I have Ancestory.com in the USA but it won't let me look at any probate or other records of any kind someone uses for a reference if it is listed in the UK. They want an extra subscription fee for that privilege. So, I try to trace the record down on line without usually much success. One UK probate record was listed on ancestory as a record for John but i could not access it. It did give me the following info, however I have no idea if it is correctly for him:
GLOUCESTERSHIRE PROBATE RECORDs
UK, Extracted Probate Records, 1269-1975
about Harris, John
Name: Harris, John
Place: Hatherop, Gloucestershire, England
Book: Burialls 1604. (Burial)
Collection: Gloucestershire: - Calendar of Wills, Court of Bishop of Gloucester, 1541-1650
Volume: Calendar of Gloucestershire Wills.
Chapter: 1623.
Text: Harris, John, Hatherop
When i tried to find it all i could find is this...and again, i don't know if it is him or how to access the record:An index for
WILLS 1541 - 1545
Contact: Leslie Mahler
Complete Documents can be seen on L.D.S. Film #0091371 obtainable at your local L.D.S. Family History Library.
~~~~~~~~
HARRIS, John - Quedgeley 1544
HARRIS, John - of Quedgeley.
Probate Gloucester 1544. Researched from LDS Film #0091371.
[Wills abstracted by Leslie Mahler in 1998: Gloucester 1541-1545]
I don't know if this is the same John
Again, Thank you for all of your Help. I wouldn't ask if i knew where else to turn.
Marjorie
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I have spent many, many hours trying to find the original will for John Harris and his wife Ann Annis. The will info i have, i found on the internet.
Hi Marjorie, Gloucestershire Wills can be ordered from the Gloucestershire Records office
http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/archives/article/107703/Archives-Homepage (http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/archives/article/107703/Archives-Homepage)
They have an online Wills Index here
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx (http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx)
which lists the will of John HARRIS of Hatherop d.1544 and his son William HARRIS d. 1599
1554 harrys john M hatherop 1554/ 48d.
1599 harris william M hatherop 1599/155 husbandman
William had a large family including at least William, Anthony, John, Thomas, Edmund, William (?), Robert and a daughter that married someone called John ILES.
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I have found out on Ancestry that quite a few trees list him as the son Of Arthur Harris, but i cannot find any proof.
That is because it is fake information that has been mindlessly copied by one person after another. The Hatherop and Prittlewell Harrises have no connection whatsoever.
I was hoping to find a birth record or such for John,....anything that would list his parents.
Church records only start from c.1535. Seeing as John HARRIS of Hatherop died in 1554 and had at least one son it is very likely that he was born before Baptism records started, i.e. it is unlikely that there is any record of his birth.
It did give me the following info, however I have no idea if it is correctly for him:
Name: Harris, John
Place: Hatherop, Gloucestershire, England
Book: Burialls 1604. (Burial)
This is probably the grandson of the John who died and left a will in 1554.
HARRIS, John - Quedgeley 1544
I don't know if this is the same John
Very unlikely. HARRIS is a common name in Gloucestershire and Hatherop and Quegeley are not immediately close to one another.
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Have you tried posting on the Gloucestershire board? Someone there would be more likely to help you with the Hatherop Harrises than people on the Essex board.
Also, looking at the Harris DNA Project there are a few Essex Harrises listed including some from the area Arthur (the Sheriff of Essex) was supposed to come from (Creeksea), although how accurate that info is debatable:-
http://www.harrisdna.org/results.html (http://www.harrisdna.org/results.html)
If you were to match them, or another group, then perhaps the other members of the group would be able to help you.
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Supermoussi. Thank you for all of your time and your help. May I ask How you know the pritwells and Haltropes wernt related? I am just trying to understand. Thank you again. I will try the other board.
Marjorie
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May I ask How you know the pritwells and Haltropes wernt related? I am just trying to understand. Thank you again.
Did you ask that question to the people that posted the information linking them on the internet and did they encourage you to buy anything from them? Did they explain to you how a run of the mill Gloucestershire sheep and cow farmer was the son of an extremely rich Essex Gentleman and a member of the one of the wealthiest Aristocratic families;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Percy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Percy)
From Aristocrat to Peasant in one generation? ???
You are right to be questioning and that is why the only way you can get to the bottom of this is to research it yourself. As well as looking at all the Wills and Deeds held by Gloucester Records Office you will need to look at the HARRIS Wills and Deeds held by the Essex Records Office at Chelmsford;
http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/ (http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/)
Other Wills are held nationally but can be searched and downloaded from;
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/wills.htm (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/wills.htm)
including the Will of Sir Arthur Harris, High Sheriff of Essex ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris_%28High_Sheriff_of_Essex%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris_%28High_Sheriff_of_Essex%29) );
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D933039 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D933039)
Miscellaneous Deeds and documents can be searched here;
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/advanced-search.aspx?tab=1 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/advanced-search.aspx?tab=1)
In addition, you also need to look at Pedigrees of the HARRISes and PERCYs. These are held in Visitations of the Counties, County Histories and Genealoigcal Reference Books such as Burkes Landed Gentry, Burkes Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies, etc. Places which hold a good selection of these include the Society of Genealogists and the British Library.
Seeing as the Creeksea HARRISes included a knight there should be pedigree for him held at the Royal College of Arms ( http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/ (http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/) ) but I should think they will charge you over £500 or even £1000 for it.
If John HARRIS (not John Percy HARRIS), Husbandman of Hatherup was genuinely descended from the Creeksea HARRISes and more importantly the PERCYs you will find him well documented in the above. If he has just been "bolted" on by someone trying to con people out of money you will not. A good starting point might be the Visitation of Gloucestershire which has a mangled version online:-
http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00inchit/visitationofcoun00inchit_djvu.txt (http://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00inchit/visitationofcoun00inchit_djvu.txt)
Can't see any mention of Hatherop HARRISes or Essex but I might have missed them...
N.B. Note that spelling was very inconsistant in the 1500s so you need to search for all possible variants of HARRIS and PERCY, e.g., HARRYS, HARRICE, HARRIES, HERRIES, etc.
N.B.2. Prickley is a place in Worcestershire http://www.192.com/places/wr/wr6-6/wr6-6qq/ (http://www.192.com/places/wr/wr6-6/wr6-6qq/) it is not a misspelling of Prittlewell
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Dear Super Mousi,
I want to thank you very much for all the time that you spent sending me the links. I never claimed that John Harris was decended from Arthur Harris of Prittlewell. I posted a request for help to find out who his parents might be or how to obtain a complete copy of his will. I had already been to a lot of the links that you offered me. Some require money to subscribe to them and some just confused me because no matter how much time and effort i spent i could not find any records.
I am an old woman on a fixed income and i cannot afford the subscription fees. I would not have asked for help if i had not spent many months looking myself.
When it was suggested that his father was Arthur Harris i found Arthur Harris in the Visitations of Essex and it lists him as only having one child named William, which I posted in a reply.
I was simply hoping that someone smarter then I, that might have a subscription could help me find a record. I have no problem being decended from a cow farmer. His decendents have contributed fiercely and bravely to protect our freedoms. Some parachuted into Germany during WWII. Some flew Bombers in Germany and the Pacific. Some like my Father landed on beaches and bravely fought to end the War. Some were artists and poets and Newspaper editors. Some were doctors and Ministers. I am fine not being decended from an ancestor that burned women and children alive because of their religion, such as Arthur's son William did.
Again, I really do appreciate the time it took you to send me the links and am sorry if my posts in any way upset you. I know that a lot of people do just blindly copy information that they find. I am just trying to give a gift of accurate family ancestory to my children before i die... whatever it may be.
sincerely, marjorie
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I wasn't offended in the slightest, just warning you away from some of the info posted on webrings etc.
If it's any consolation if John HARRIS of Hatherop owned 71 acres+ he wasn't exactly poor, it is just he wasn't rich either. He sounds like exactly the sort of Tudor Farmer who the majority of British people descend from.
Because Wills and BMD records run out before 1530 it is probably unlikely that you can trace much further back than him, but then again most people cannot even trace their lines back to the 1500s so you are lucky in that respect! :)
Probably the one chance you have to find out more is to look at the HARRIS (& MASON?) wills the Gloucester Records Office hold for the surrounding area. One of them might refer to the Hatherop HARRISes as some sort of relations giving you another piece of the jigsaw.
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Dear SuperMoussi, Thank you for your relpy and advice. I will try once again to find the wills. According to Bethia there are records of the wills for John Harris and his wife Ann, but the probate date on Johns will is 1544 and i have him listed as dying in 1555 which is probably incorrect. I have his son's will which states that he be buried at St Nicholas in Halthrop. I had no luck finding any records for his father but his sons will stated it was the Harris Family Church.
Here is a copy of what i have of John Harris and his wife's will.... i will search for it again...but i have been for weeks now with no luck.
Following is the will as taken from Bethia:
JOHN HARRIS 1513-1554 .
John Harris, yeoman, of Hartherup, co. Gloucester, was born at least as early as 1513. He married Anne or Annis _____, perhaps about the year 1533. His will, dated October 22, 1533, and proved June 4, 1544, left the lease of the house in which he dwelt to his daughter Alice Winchcombe, and, if she should die before it expired, the remainder of the term was to belong to her daughter. His two sons, WILLIAM (our direct ancester)and John Harris, received seventy-two acres of land occupied by William Carney, a sheep pasture and also ten sheep and a bullock apiece. The residuary legatee and executrix was his wife Anne Harris, and John Sermon. Peter Fathers and John Chapleyn were named overseers. The witnesses were John George, William Manne and John Sermon..
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The will of Anne Harris, widow, of Hatherup, was made June 17, 1585, and proved Febuary 5, 1585/6. She gave to her daughter Alice Winchkome (Winchcombe) a new gown, three sheets, etc., and made small personal gifts to (GRANDCHILDREN??) Anne, James, John, Thomas Winchkome & ALSO William Harris the younger, Anthony Harris and John Harris the younger, Joan Reve, Alice Kirbie, George and Marie Vincen and Elizabeth Robins. The residuary legatee and executor was Richard Harris..
Thank you again for your time and advice.
Sincerely, Marjorie Harris McLean
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I will try once again to find the wills. According to Bethia there are records of the wills for John Harris and his wife Ann, but the probate date on Johns will is 1544 and i have him listed as dying in 1555 which is probably incorrect.
Hi Marjorie, Am confused; surely the will proved in 1554 and listed on the Glocuestershire Wills Database ( http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx is the one you want to get a copy of, i.e.,
1554 harrys john hatherop 1554/ 48
The 1544 and 1555 dates on Bethia are probably mistranscriptions or typos?
As far as John's missing burial record it is probably because the surviving parish records only seem to start from 1578 so he died before they start. If you can't get to Gloucestershire Records Office the Church of LDS also have the Hatherop BMDs (and most Wills) on microfilm at Kew Gardens, London;
http://www.londonfhc.org/content/catalogue?c=2&p=England,England,Gloucester,Hatherop&f=1 (http://www.londonfhc.org/content/catalogue?c=2&p=England,England,Gloucester,Hatherop&f=1)
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Dear SuperMoussi, You are a wonder. Thank you. I found the record. I had been using the 1544 date that the will said it was probated, and mispelling his surname. Also it won't bring the record up if you put in Haltrop for the county. But it showed the record as Haltrop, so it must be the one. I wasn't allowed to look at the record but had to order it . I guess they will mail it to me. I am very excited, I hope it won't take too long to recieve it. Again, Thank you for all the trouble you went to to help me.
Marjorie :D
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You're welcome Marjorie.
Indicentally, Am I correct in saying you are from the States? If so, are you aware that the guys that created the FamilySearch/IGI website have copies of most British Parish Records and Wills on microfilm and kindly make them available (for FREE :D ) to the general public to help with their family history?
Their head office is at Salt Lake City:-
https://familysearch.org/locations/saltlakecity-library (https://familysearch.org/locations/saltlakecity-library)
but have Family History Centres spread all over the place and can be found from here:-
https://familysearch.org/locations/centerlocator (https://familysearch.org/locations/centerlocator)
I don't know what is held where but I am sure if you pop in or email your nearest centre they will be able to help you much more; they are normally a helpful bunch. Perhaps if you jumped on a greyhound and camped out at one of these centres for a day or two you would make good progress in getting solid facts about your ancestors and their families (as opposed to wading through loads of trees people post on the internet with dates and names guessed!)
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.... Following is the will as taken from Bethia:
JOHN HARRIS 1513-1554 .
John Harris, yeoman, of Hartherup, co. Gloucester, was born at least as early as 1513. He married Anne or Annis _____, perhaps about the year 1533. His will, dated October 22, 1533, and proved June 4, 1544, left the lease of the house in which he dwelt to his daughter Alice Winchcombe, and, if she should die before it expired, the remainder of the term was to belong to her daughter...
My apologies for interrupting this thread but although I will admit to not having read the entire story, the above quotation does not make sense (to me anyway :D) Have I missed something?
If the above John Harris was born abt 1513, married abt 1533 and wrote his WILL the same year (1533) - how could he have a married daughter (Alice Winchcombe) recorded in his WILL
UNLESS
he had been previously married
BUT
to have a married daughter when he was only about 20 years old sounds rather unlikely. :-\
???
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.... Following is the will as taken from Bethia:
JOHN HARRIS 1513-1554 .
John Harris, yeoman, of Hartherup, co. Gloucester, was born at least as early as 1513. He married Anne or Annis _____, perhaps about the year 1533. His will, dated October 22, 1533, and proved June 4, 1544, left the lease of the house in which he dwelt to his daughter Alice Winchcombe, and, if she should die before it expired, the remainder of the term was to belong to her daughter...
My apologies for interrupting this thread but although I will admit to not having read the entire story, the above quotation does not make sense (to me anyway :D) Have I missed something?
If the above John Harris was born abt 1513, married abt 1533 and wrote his WILL the same year (1533) - how could he have a married daughter (Alice Winchcombe) recorded in his WILL
UNLESS
he had been previously married
BUT
to have a married daughter when he was only about 20 years old sounds rather unlikely. :-\
???
Exactly what I raised in reply #6 !!
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It says
"at least"
and
"perhaps"
so basically these are made up dates. The IGI and the web is full of dates people have guessed thinking it would help other people when all it does is confuse them!
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Thats why I asked if he had a copy of the Will.
Agree IGI is full of rubbish dates.
But the Will is an original source.
So if he wrote it in 1833 and refers to a married daughter, it means he was not only 20, and the birth date of 1513 is wrong ( or at least does not refer to the same John Harris who made the will). Likewise, if the will was proved in 1544, the death date of 1554 is wrong (or does not refer to the same John Harris who made the will)
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Here is a link to my tree at ancestry.com..you can 'copy and paste' the address. This tree is for 'public view' so, you can research, to see if this is the John Percy Harris, that you are looking for. Follow the tree and copy any information, that you would want. I hope this helps! If this is the correct one, then you and I are cousins...:) If for some reason, you cannot get into the tree, then let me know, and I will send the information, from my computer. Please let me know, if you received this message, and if it was helpful. Drop me a line at: (*)
John Percy Harris:
Birth 1513 in Hatherup, Gloucestershire, England
Death 4 Jun 1554 in Hatherup, Gloucestershire, England
His Parents:
Arthur Harris
1475 1537
Johanna Percy
1505 1572
http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/67822890/person/30190822116/media
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Sir J P Harris is my 13th great grandfather. I dont know who his father was but his mother was named Johanna Percy Harris.