RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: KD146 on Thursday 05 December 13 22:55 GMT (UK)
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I have spent an absolute fortune with RootsIreland on baptisms and marriages that I have no access to anywhere else. It has been invaluable to me in filling gaps and opening up whole new areas on my enormous and extensive family tree.
However, I found an awful lot of spelling errors, many of which have resulted in hours of searching for an elusive but important record to verify something. Many other records simply never appeared at all. I suspect a good few of them are there, but the spelling and date permutations are simply too great to ever find them.
I found many dates out of order too, when paired up with other documents which conflict with the RootsIreland records. The result of that is that I don't know which dates to use, and can verify nothing. If the mismatched dates are questionable, then that means every date on any RootsIreland record is questionable too.
Tonight, however, I found the worst yet. I found a marriage record, which, given the names and location, is most definitely the correct marriage, but the date is 60 years out! It appears that the year 1872 was mistranscribed as 1812.
That calls into question every single RootsIreland record on my tree. It seems that at least half of my tree cannot be verified, given the spurious nature of many of the transcriptions. It feels like half of my tree is simply a load of educated guesswork.
Has anyone else had the same doubts, and how do you reconcile yourself to the vagaries of somebody else's transcriptions? Misspellings I can live with, and indeed expect. But dates are sacrosanct.
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I did most of my tree before RootsIreland existed!
I'm lucky because I can get into Dublin easily, and look at the original Parish Register microfilms in the National Library .. so nowadays I get clues from RootsIreland, which I check-out myself.
eadaoin
(mind you - some of the writing in the Registers is so awful that it's impossible to know what they've written!)
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I've had terrible experiences on RootsIreland and would NEVER use them again. >:( http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=663745.msg5092403#msg5092403
I've sent inquiries for explanations of transcription errors and missing information but have NEVER heard back from them despite numerous requests for clarification. I'm in Canada so there is no way I can ever see what the correct information should be.
A lesson learned.
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" It seems that at least half of my tree cannot be verified, given the spurious nature of many of the transcriptions. It feels like half of my tree is simply a load of educated guesswork."
So, it all goes back to the oft repeated advice - you have to check the ORIGINAL to be sure.
:D :D :D
Dawn M
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Hi All
Just in response to the Transcriptions on Rootsireland, over twenty years ago
as a teenager i was pulled of the unemployment line and put on a six month
course transcribing parish records for Dublin North. There was no training and
the supervisor was only interested in finding out about her neighbours ancestors.
Out of twelve staff i was the only one who wanted to do it right, as i had experience
of trying to read the registers and with an interest in Genealogy. To finish always
check and check again ,what somebody else has discovered.
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I haven't used Rootsireland much - lack of records for my purpose.
However, some years ago, I transcribed some records for personal use from IGI film and it was such a complex process.
Missing dates, poor handwriting, various spellings all made it very difficult.
I knew most of the surnames because it is a discrete area but I noticed that when the same records were transcribed by someone who wasn't familiar with the place there were several mispellings, asterisks and question marks used.
Presumably, this is what happens at RootsIreland.
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As Collech said the people doing the transcribing for RootsIreland had no training and most had no interest, I remember wanting to do it but I hadn't been unemployed long enough so couldn't.
When you look at all the mistakes in the census by people who were employed to do it ( but to be fair wouldn't be familiar with Irish names) it's amazing how many of RootsIrelands records are correct.
Biggest mistake they made was not getting images of the originals, I suspect this is why Justaleafonatree didn't get a response, the just don't know, no excuse for not answering of course and as each county has a different centre I guess it's a matter of how well the county you need is run or even if they still have staff.
Unless you can go to see the originals I guess we will just have to put up with it and with the pricing structure they have now I always worry about suggesting it.
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My mum was born and raised in Donegal and her own great grandmother played a huge part in her upbringing.
Wanting to know more, I made my very first Irish record purchase
I obtained the transcribed marriage cert from Rootsireland and obtained her maiden name.
For 2years, I searched fruitlessly for info on her parents.
As a last resort, I posted on a forum where a very kind person looked at the parish record and sent me a copy of the original.
My gg grandmother's maiden name had been incorrectly transcribed by Rootsireland as McGarvey.
Her name was quite clear, and read: McGrory!
As soon as I had the correct info, finding the earlier family was extremely easy.
I still use Rootsireland, but am always cautious of their transcriptions.
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I would say to anyone, if your experience with any commercial website is bad, don't use it.
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Are the mistake's genuine which I reckon they are !!! but doe's not help if copied wrong as that would lead to a lot of chasing the wrong records & cost the customer lots of money .
:'(
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I have bought many records from IFHF in the past as I am seldom able to visit the NLI . I only buy records when I am pretty sure that I have the correct one (lucky that the surname is not so common). However, I did buy a record last year for a "Blackburn" but in actual fact the surname was clearly written as "Black"! I found this out eventually when I had the chance to visit the NLI. I got in touch with IFHF Limerick and advised them of this error and other minor errors that I had come across, in case others are chasing the same records. They replied quickly and thanked me for the details and credited me for the incorrect record.
Some of the records on the parish registers are nearly impossible to read so some mistranscriptions are inevitable but surely a mistaken year/date of record should be easier to spot.
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IFHF has been a huge gripe of mine. I have spent a great deal of money and I have indeed found some gold. But the misspellings and errors on the site have caused me to waste so much money that I don't use it nearly as much as I would if they were more accurate. Especially now that they charge for even searching.
In addition to everything else, many of their transcriptions don't include the full information on the record. I found this out during my one and only trip to Ireland and chance to look at the actual microfilm at the National Library in Dublin. Baptism records include the names of the godparents, often vital clues to a family. But the IFHF transcriptions usually do not have that info.
Their records of what they have are also inaccurate. They don't mention that there may be a gap in the parish records of ten years or so, as I discovered after throwing a lot of money away. There is also no way of learning, as I did the hard way, that parish boundaries can cross county lines. So I was searching for my Meath family when their records were in a Westmeath parish.
The Irish economy is in trouble. Why don't they digitize all these parish records and put them online either free or for a reasonable fee? The askaboutireland site for the censuses is terrific. Why not the same thing for parish records? It would be a huge boost to tourism if people could more easily find out where they are from.
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The Census both of them
The Applotment books
and the Will index are free on the National Archives
Griffiths Valuation is free
The Down Survey is free
There are free headstone sites
The new WWI memorial book is free
The Military Archives stuff is free
The index on FamilySearch is free and the new one will also be free
am I missing anything?
We get a lot of free stuff.
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First, I don't mind paying if the info is accurate and correctly transcribed and indexed. So often not true of the IFHF.
Second, for the many millions of us who are the descendants of the Famine diaspora of the 1840s and 50s, most of the records you list are unfortunately not helpful.
Griffith's is the best but many Irish never made it to that list.
The Tithe Applotments transcription has been a disaster tho still can be worth the frustrating search. It does not even have parishes in the right county or the right names of parishes. And again, many Irish never made it at all to the TA.
The civil records generally begin in 1864 and so do not include the million and more Irish who emigrated before that date.
Gravestones are also few for the Famine generation and earlier. And of course later records such as those of WW1 are rarely of use for this generation.
The single most important source for pre-1864 Ireland is those parish records--and it is very, very difficult to get at them. Digitize from the original parish books! Start a fund--I'd be the first to contribute.
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They don't include the people who didn't emigrate as well so we are all in the same boat on that score.
I'm not defending IFHF.
I'm just saying we do get a lot of stuff for free.
When you list it off like that, it's quite surprising.
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Its not just one site its all of them.
I have found by and large they are accurate but have found misspellings abound and have on occasions used slight variations of a place name i.e. In Dublin......Lusk has been written as Rusk and Rush as Lush etc etc.
Even census I found transscribed incorrectly as it was just someone who decided name was same as others even though it wasn't even close.
Even with the best records a degree of caution is always required....
I remember seeing a survey that showed in one country that it was reckoned 1 in 10 children were being brought up by someone who assumed he was their biological father when it wasn't the case. This could make "interesting" family trees ::)
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I regularly work with copies of the parish records held in PRONI in Belfast. Whilst some are easy documents to read, many are not. The handwriting is often terrible, pages have faded, extra entries squeezed in, in the margins and at the bottom of pages etc etc. Many are damaged by water or ink or are torn. Pages are lost. And so on. It can be extremely difficult to read some entries clearly. Many RC entries are in latin. So there is no way that mistakes and misunderstandings can be eliminated from the records even if they were all computerised afresh. The only advice I can give is to use the IFHF site as a guide and a search tool, but verify everything against the original entries if you can.
Good record keeping wasn’t really much of a priority in 19th century Ireland. I looked up Drumgooland Church of Ireland records recently, and there’s a note in them saying: “The entries of baptisms from this date 2nd Jun 1833 were made from papers collected by me J. A. Bears, lying about the church and vestry room and put in this book after I received it from … Thos I. Tighe at Parsons Hill on my becoming curate of the parish 1837.” That probably tells you all you need to know about the standards of record keeping that sometimes prevailed in the 18th & 19th centuries. It was evidently haphazard at times, and consequently many early records are lost.
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Everything you say is true, Elwyn. But I searched records on microfilm for a Westmeath parish at the NLI in Dublin. In addition to all the problems you describe, pages were out of order and upside down. The microfilm itself was not in the best condition and the machines were ancient. They did not even print--I had to take notes, shades of my long-ago college days.
Several days later, I was at the parish itself. The priest kindly allowed me to examine the actual book. Bad as it was--1840s & 50s--the information was much clearer and more legible. Digitizing and making the images available online for fee or free would be the greatest contribution Ireland could make to its own history, I believe. Parish records tell everyone's story, even the very poorest and those who might otherwise be completely anonymous. They live on in those records.
It would contribute to the economy as well. Most people, present company excepted of course, get frustrated and abandon family history when they hit that brick wall. There is a huge tourism opportunity being wasted. Ireland is more than the Ring of Kerry and the Cliffs of Moher or the Giants' Causeway. People want to stand where their family once lived. There is no feeling like it. Digitize those images!
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I was just reading the email RootsIreland sent today re Antrim records
It includes this
"In Magheralin Church of Ireland register the minister Canon B.W Dolling had to add the following note to the baptismal record of Mary Anne in 1808:
'The parents of said child went away while I was registering the others, though desired to stay and I have not been able to discover who they were'."
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It sure would Alison.
You were very lucky to meet that priest. That wouldn't happen too often these days.
25 euro now to look at parish records in a church I think, if they will even let you near them.
The state is quite happy to put what it has up for free, but the churchs give it to pay sites.
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I agree about priests and Ministers not always welcoming genealogical research. I know a couple who simply ignore such requests, saying they simply haven’t the time to deal with them. As one put it to me “my priority to my living parishioners, not the dead ones.”
The snag with digitizing the records is that it is a mammoth task, and would cost a lot of money. Who exactly is going to pay for that? Would it really be a good use of taxpayers money? If it is ever done, you can be sure the records won’t be free to access.
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I have no doubt that several organizations would salivate at the opportunity to digitize those parish records and then sell subscriptions to access them, as is done now with many records. If the churches in question were not comfortable with those organizations, I also have no doubt that private money could be raised for this project from the world-wide Irish diaspora. There are a lot of deep pockets out there--and people who would be willing to make smaller donations.
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What your saying makes sense but IFHF is non profit making and has access to these records. We can complain all we like about how well they do the job but at least they are doing it, a commercial company would no doubt charge us even more and there is no guarantee they would do any better. The government isn't going to set up another records collecting organisation when there already is one in place that costs them nothing.
Than there is the question of who would be willing to take this work away from the local heritage centres who to be fair started gathering the data into one place to begin with. They also have the backing of the State and an established relationship with local churchs.
What I can't get my head around is why they don't make copy's of the registers, they only do transcriptions, that way we could look at the original image and see for ourselves.
I know back when they started this wouldn't have been as easy or cheap as now, but they should at least make a start with the ones they are doing now.
All this chat has made me read the IFHF website in more detail and while it still wrecks my head and I wish it was more consistent and fulfilled its stated standards better, I'm beginning to appreciate the amount of work it has done a lot more.
Still charging for searching will always be a sore point.
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Allow me to give you one example of the poor job IFHF/RootsIreland does. Using a baptismal cert I have already bought from them and know the info to be in their database, I just searched for the same info with the father's first name spelled Matthew, the usual spelling in the US and many other places. No results. When I enter Mathew, the traditional Irish spelling, bingo, there is the record. That is a disgrace.
I could supply many more examples but will not try your patience further.
If an organization is doing a poor job, the market will seek another source--or disappear. As for the heritage centers, I suspect if people could actually find their ancestors more easily, the heritage centers would be very busy indeed.
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I don't understand why that is a disgrace.
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Sorry not to be clearer. It is a disgrace that their search function is so limited that it won't show results for Mathew/Matthew but only one or the other. And that there is no wild card function like Mat*. I tried that too.
The site is way behind the tech curve and it drives away all but the most determined.
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Ireland's RC registers to be digitised
http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.ie/2012/09/irelands-rc-registers-to-be-digitised.html
Haven't heard any more on this since.
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Wouldn't that be great? I had not seen this. Thanks for posting.
Her blog is superb. I'm sure if there were updates, she would post them. Fingers crossed.
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That would be great. I hope it's not a subscription system though.
So does the National Library have much in the way of Church records?
Forget that just saw the writing under the photo.
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I have used IFHF to access the records of my ancestors, sometimes with good results, but often with mistranscriptions, much as other contributors have experienced.
I have waited a long time in the hope that these records would become available when parish records are digatised and available to view (i am happy to pay a subscription to access the records)
However
A report in Sunday Independent 31st March 2013
'Genealogy firm resists online records'
"A genealogy service has said that if the State puts church and family records on line it will have a "significant impact" on earnings of family history centres.
The IFHF with ................... ... earned income of 1,089,763 euro for 2012, with profits of 34,161 euro for the year, according to to documents lodged in the Companies Office
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Oh they are naughty, wonder what they do with all that money!
I don't like subscription sites because I think it's like paying to go into a shop to see if they have anything you want.
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[quote author=Sinann link=topic=670189.msg5191442#msg5191442 date=1389868860
I don't like subscription sites because I think it's like paying to go into a shop to see if they have anything you want.
[/quote]
Know what you mean! ::) ::) ::)
I subscribed to a site (nothing to do with the one under discussion here) about a year ago because a search of their website indicated they had info on whatever I was looking for. After I paid my money, and did a full search, it came up with a big fat zero!
I was not amused, and told them so.
Dawn M
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Having read all the contributions from researchers re IFHF I agree with most of the comments.
I am very lucky in the Parish where I live in Co Cork the local Church Office has a facility where access to all the Registers Baptism & Marriage are available to browse going back to early 1800's at no cost. I have used the facility on numerous occasions to assist people in tracking their ancestors.
I do not know if this type of facility is available in any other parishes in Ireland - are we 1 of the very few? But it is thanks to a past parish priest who had a great interest in genealogy that I think this facility was set up.
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Lucky, lucky you. I am not aware of any other Church's in Ireland that offer this service
My paternal ancestors are from Co. Meath and I am finding it very difficult to get any info (prior to 1864) from a church there. In contrast my maternal ancestors are from Co. Wicklow and I have had a great deal of help and information from the church secretory at the church there. This has enabled me to take this line of ancestors much further back than I had expected.
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brennan1 great when one meets a co-operative person. Good luck with your research :)
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I don't think the churches can be blamed for not having the staff or time to do individual look-ups. Those old record books are extremely difficult to read, dates and pages out of order, missing etc. In many churches, if there is a secretary at all, she works a few hours one afternoon a week. And if they let individuals search, the books would soon be in shreds, as they almost are already.
As important as it is to us, genealogy is not the mission of churches. The needs of the living, spiritual and physical, are their mission. The answer is to get these books digitized and online.