RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Eric Jones on Saturday 30 November 13 11:40 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
I have had some luck retracing my UK ancestry on said website. My father was Eric Jones, born in Wigan, UK in 1931, father not known at present but managed to trace Edna Jones (1911-1977), her parents John Thomas Jones (1877-1950) and Elizabeth Alice Chadwick and so on. But I seem to have reached a bit of a dead end now as I can't figure out the John Jones who was born in 1823 in Chirk, Wales. He married Mary Ann Parker (1829) in 1848 in Lancashire and the line continues from there to John Jones (1851), John Thomas (1877) and so on.
I would be grateful if anyone could give me a nudge in the right direction. As I am not local to Wales or even England all my efforts rest on the internet - I live in Holland.
Also any information on the Joneses would be appreciated, stories, photos, I have virtually nothing. The oldest photo I have of my father stems from a 1962 passport.
Regards,
Eric Jones
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I answered to your other posting Eric.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Answer on here now!I am looking at a Tree on Ancestry that says Eric(1931)'s father was Charles Samuel Jones.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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As far as the John Jones(1823).Where have seen a reference to Chirk?He is not given as born in Chirk on any Census?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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;D Yeah, that's my tree. So far through the kind help of others, I have managed to find a Charles Jones on the baptism records of January 1932. The Charles Samuel was a first attempt but I am at no means sure that is his full name or whether or not this is the guy.
The Chirk reference is from information from the Doherty family, he managed to trace back somewhat to Chirk, I have so far only managed to find stuff from the UK, not Wales.
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The death you have for Edna doesn't appear to be the right one?It appears she was born in the Jan/Feb/Mar quarter of 1911.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Yes the 1911 Census was taken on the 2nd of April 1911,Edna is given as one month old then,the 1977 Edna is given as born on 23rd of April 1911.
regards
William Russell Jones
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Here now ;D
I've had a quick look at my Chirk records and in addition to the Ley one (which WR refers to), there is another John Jones bpt Chirk Sept 28 1823 - s/o Richard Jones and Elizabeth of Chirk. Richard recorded as a Collier.
I can see why Oswestry/Shropshire was given on the 61 and 71 censuses as Chirk is on the Denbighshire/Shropshire border. I've entered Oswestry on at least one census, although born Chirk.
Am busy for rest of the day but will be back later - hope WR can help.
Gadget
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No sign of WR so far, so ~
I think that the 1851 census gives us the link to Chirk. It fits with the later censuses for birthplace of Mary Ann:
1851
HO107/2199/855/5
Chapel Lane, Wigan
Mary Hall, wid, 70, hand loom weaver, parish of Durrown (??)
William, lodger, mar, 50, do, b. do
Jane, lodger, mar, 38, do, do
Mary Ann, daughter, 3, b. Wigan
John Jones, lodger, mar, 25, collier, b. Denbyshire, Chirk
Mary Ann Jones, lodger, mar, 22, reeler, b. Lancashire, Hindley
For comparison ~
1861
RG9/2781/36/65
Britannia Bridge, Ince in makerfield, Wigan
John Jones, 37, coal miner, b. Salop (Shropshire)
Mary A, wife, Cotton mill reeler, b. Lancashire, Hindley
John, son, 10, coal pit labourer, b. do
Sarah A, dau, 6, b. do
1871
RG10/3896/56/44
Brook Side, Warrington Road, Ince in Makerfield, Wigan
John Jones, 48, coal miner, b. Shropshire, Oswestry
Mary Ann, wife, 43, Factory opperative(?), b. Lancs, Hindley
Sarah Ann, dau, 17, do, b. do
Elijah, s, 7, b. Ince
Edward, s, 3, b. Ince
1881
RG11/3775/83/26
Back Yard, Warrington Road, Ince in Makerfield, Wigan
John Jones, 55, coal miner, b. Cheshire, Chester
Mary A, wife, b. Hindley
Elijah, s, 17, coal miner's drawer, b. Ince
Edward, s, 13, do, b. do
Mary J, dau, 8, b. do
John could therefore have been born 1824 +/- 2. Tricky with a John Jones.
Gadget
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There are a few possibles in 1841 so I think that the best thing to do is to get the 1848 marriage cert:
Sept quarter, 1848, Leigh, vol 21, page 376
You can order this online:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Gadget
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I'm waiting for the OP.I think he needs to start afresh from the birth of his father.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I'm waiting for the OP.I think he needs to start afresh from the birth of his father.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
And your reasons ?
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Yes the 1911 Census was taken on the 2nd of April 1911,Edna is given as one month old then,the 1977 Edna is given as born on 23rd of April 1911.
regards
William Russell Jones
I don't think that birth dates on death certs are necessarily always correct - it depends who gave the info.
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Did you check this one:
Eric Jones b. Mar q, 1931, Wigan mmn = Griffiths. So she couldn't be the Edna of 1911
Are we sure that Eric was b. 1931, Wigan
Added - Just found one registered Mar q, 1932 which would fit with the Dec birth on the tree. MMN= Jones.
Need birth cert - Wigan 8c 71
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He has a baptism listed on his Tree for his father listing Charles and Edna Jones as his parents.I'm not finding a Charles Jones/Edna Jones marriage.Jones is listed as his mother's maiden name on the birth entry in the Birth Index.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Well we're led to believe by the OP Eric was born in 1931.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I'm not finding either a Charles Jones/Edna Griffiths marriage!In fact there are not all that many Charles Jones to any Edna marriages.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Have modified my post :
Added - Just found one registered Mar q, 1932 which would fit with the Dec birth on the tree. MMN= Jones.
Need birth cert - Wigan 8c 71
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Birth cert has no father entered so where does Charles Samuel come from :-\
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As I said we could pontificate here for ever but we need the OP to get back to us.What he has on his Tree relating to Eric(1931) doesn't stack up!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I'd hardly call it pontificating ::)
As far as I can see, you're main argument against this Edna is a birth date of about a month out. As I said - birth dates on death certs are often out.
If the birth cert is correct, his mother was an Edna Jones. If she was the daughter of John Thomas Jones, the tree back to John Jones and Mary Ann is correct. We need to know if there was another Edna Jones.
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Its the baptism for Eric 24/01/1932 listed on his Tree that I'm going by.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hello guys,
Have not had any time to delve into this more but I notice a discussion about the birthdate of Edna. Most of that information I got from someone from the Doherty family, grandson of Frances Doherty (Jones). She was present at the birth of my father, December 7th, 1931, there is indeed no father listed on his birth certificate, but the address on this matches the address of the baptism. The Charles Jones pops up there but nobody knows who he is. My dad did not tell me much about his family, he grew up with his grandfather, his father supposedly died at Arnhem, Holland (market garden).
I have downloaded forms from the British Army to get military records released and maybe will find out more.
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So Charles and Edna were not married?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I've been looking through the Lancs OPCs and can't find a marriage there or in the GRO for Edna and Charles and I've found what Eric has just confirmed:
If the line is correct, the Lancashire OPC has the marriage of John Jones and Mary Ann Parker on 4 Sept 1848, St George, Tydesley
His father is given as John Jones, a collier.
Also baptisms:
St Catherine, Wigan
24 Jan 1931
Eric Jones, s/o Charles Jones and Edna. Born 7 Dec 1931 (abode - 1 Northumberland Street as the birth cert). Charles given as a Miner.
16 April 1911
Edna Jones, d/o John Thomas Jones and Elizabeth. Born 4th April 1911 Added as significant - Abode given as 10 Morris Row
Gadget
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Just to confirm the Doherty relationship ~
Frances Jones (sister of Edna) married Patrick Doherty, June quarter 1927, Wigan.
Eric's birth cert - informant was Frances Doherty.
Gadget