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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Sylverton76 on Saturday 18 June 05 12:32 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to get started tracking down my great grandfather's family. My maternal grandmother's father is William Theodore Johnson b. 10 Dec 1884, father John Johnson according to the information I have been given from living relatives. My grandmother and her sister insist the Johnson family are originally from Sweden and in the past changed their surname from Johanson (Sp?) to Johnson.
Facts:
I have the marriage and death certificates for William Theodore Johnson. He married Margaret Ross Carson at the register office, Poplar, London in Jan 1905 at age 21. Both were living at 22 Stebondale Street, Poplar at the time of their marriage as this is Margaret Ross Carson's family home. Shortly after, they moved to 146 EastFerry Road, Poplar (Since renamed 13 Spindrift Avenue). According to the marriage certificate, William's father is John Johnson. William Theodore Johnson died september 1962. Both William and Margaret are buried together in the East London Cemetery, plot 16530/22.
I cannot find a birth certificate for a William Theodore Johnson but I do have a birth certificate for a Theodore William Johnson b. 10 Dec 1884 in Poplar, London. The mother and father are listed as John Lawrence Johnson, merchant seaman, and Mary Ann Johnson. Mary's maiden name could possibly be 'Curle' but its hard to make out. They were living at 2 British Street, Poplar which has since been replaced by Harbinger Road. Coincidently this backs on to Spindrift Avenue.
I have also been told William had at least one brother. The brother I have a name for is Alfred and he had twins (boy/girl) and they are alledged to be 2 or 3 years older than my great aunt. She remembers the girl going to her primary school and lived nearby in Millwall. Some searching through the records this morning gives the following:
Dorothy B Johnson & Benjamin F Johnson
Registered Mar 1921 Poplar 1c 814. Mother's maiden name Copping. This would make the twins 4 years older than my great aunt.
Problems:
I cannot find anything conclusive concerning John & Mary Ann Johnson on the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses. Can anyone advise me on where to look for more information on this family please?
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You can't find them on those census ? , or there was no more additional info on the census ?
Being a merchant seaman, Mr Johnson could easily have came from Sweden. Changing the name to an english version is a familiar theme from those that want to fit into a new country.
Did you search for a marriage certificate for John and Mary Ann in the records under both Johnson and Johanson. The luck would be if Mary Ann was english. If no luck then try a search in the Swedish indexes or IGI.
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I will take a look at the censuses for you. In the meantime have you seen this marriage on Free BMD?
Marriages Sep 1875
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CURLE Mary Ann Mile End 1c 1015
FANE James Reginald Mile End 1c 1015
Johnson John Mile End 1c 1015
Paiba Eleanor Margaret Mile End 1c 1015
Barbara F
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Well done, Barbara. :)
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Thanks very much Barbara F. Mile End is north of Poplar and does seem to fit in. I'll order the certificate and see what information I can get :D Maybe there are other siblings as William/Theodore is born 9 years after their marriage?
With the census I found a couple of Johnsons but none which seemed to have a wife named Mary or a son named William/Theodore in 1891. However I'm not an expert so I maybe missing something! I'll keep my fingers crossed. Mk2_Zephyr I have the link for the IGI (http://www.familysearch.org/) so I'll looking there for a possible birth for John Lawrence Johnson.
Thanks again for helping.
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See your difficulty with the censuses - nothing seems to fit! However how about this, again from Free BMD
Deaths Jun 1907
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JOHNSON John Lawrence 59 Poplar 1c 333
If this is the right man it gives a better idea of who to look for in the censuses. There is John Johnson in Poplar in 1901 of about the right age - born in Sweden. The writing is difficult to read but I will have another look at it.
Barbara
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1901 census RG13 1642 folio 68 Hedgott's farm Matching Essex
John L Johnson 53 Sweden Head Married Mariner (master)
Mary A Johnson 45 London, Wife Married
William Johnson 17 London, Son Chipper in iron foundry (possibly clipper)
Ada Johnson 14 London, Daughter
Benjman Johnson 10 London, Son
Henry Walker 47 South Hampton, Hampshire, Boarder Mariner (master)
Regards
Valda
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Well done Valda :)
If this is the right family I have found them in Greenwich in 1891. Will send the image if you PM me your email address. There is a brother called Alfred which ties in with your first set of info.
Barbara
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Thanks everyone, I really appreaciate it ;D I think you may be right Valda. After seeing Barbara F's post I found the following:
47 Roan Street, Greenwich in 1891:
John Johnson Age 42 (B S), Sweden. Head. Seaman.
Mary Johnson Age 36 Limehouse Wife.
Thomas Johnson Age 16 Limehouse Son.
John H. Johnson Age 15 Limehouse Son.
Mary A. Johnson Age 13 Limehouse Daughter.
Alfred Johnson Age 8 Limehouse Son.
William Johnson Age 6 Limehouse Son
Ada Johnson Age 4 Greenwich Daughter
Benjamin Johnson Age 4 months Greenwich Son
11 Ordnance Place, Greenwich, London in 1881:
John Johnson abt 1849 (B S), Sweden. Head. Seaman.
Mary Johnson abt 1856 Limehouse Wife.
Edward Johnson abt 1875 Poplar Son.
John Johnson abt 1876 Poplar Son.
Minnie Johnson abt 1878 Poplar Daughter.
William Johnson abt 1881 Greenwich Son.
NB Limehouse registers as Poplar which would fit with William/Theodore being the William Johnson Age 6 in 1891.
I've also been having a look at FreeBMD and I found the following:
Deaths Jun 1900
Johnson Mary Ann 45 Poplar 1c 406
I've had further conversations with my great aunt and it would appear William/Theodore had another brother named Benjamin but she is unsure of his age. She also said that her grandfather had a pig farm near Harlow in Essex so I guess everything is finally beginning to fit!
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1891 census RG12 509 folio 17 47 Roan Street Greenwich London
Johnson, John I 47 British Subject, Sweden Head Married Seaman
Johnson, Mary B 36 Limehouse, London, Wife Married
Johnson, Thomas 16 Limehouse, London, Son Labourer
Johnson, John H 15 Limehouse, London, Son Labourer
Johnson, Mary A 13 Limehouse, London, Daughter
Johnson, Alfred I 8 Limehouse, London, Son
Johnson, William A 6 Limehouse, London, Son
Johnson, Ada E 4 Greenwich, London, Daughter
Johnson, Benjn W 4mths Greenwich, London, Son
I think the enumerator got a little confused with the middle name initials but it seems to be the same family.
1881 census RG12 726 folio 68 11 Ordnance Place, Greenwich, London, England
John Johnson 32 (B S), Sweden Head Married seaman
Mary Johnson 25 Limehouse Wife Married
Edward Johnson 6 Poplar Son (first name difficult to read)
John Johnson 5 Poplar Son
Minnie Johnson 3 Poplar Daughter
William Johnson 6mths Greenwich Son
Mary Ann Hogin 30 Greenwich Boarder charwoman
Ages of the parents are roughly the same and son John. Minnie is a pet name for Mary Ann so she's the right age for Mary Ann in 1891. The child William would have to have died young - there is a space between births on the 1891 census. Leaving Edward if that was what is written to either be a mistake or a child that was called Thomas Edward or Edward Thomas as he is the right age for Thomas on the 1891 census.
Regards
Valda
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1891 census RG12 509 folio 17 47 Roan Street Greenwich London
Johnson, John I 47 British Subject, Sweden Head Married Seaman
Johnson, Mary B 36 Limehouse, London, Wife Married
Johnson, Thomas 16 Limehouse, London, Son Labourer
Johnson, John H 15 Limehouse, London, Son Labourer
Johnson, Mary A 13 Limehouse, London, Daughter
Johnson, Alfred I 8 Limehouse, London, Son
Johnson, William A 6 Limehouse, London, Son
Johnson, Ada E 4 Greenwich, London, Daughter
Johnson, Benjn W 4mths Greenwich, London, Son
I think the enumerator got a little confused with the middle name initials but it seems to be the same family.
1881 census RG12 726 folio 68 11 Ordnance Place, Greenwich, London, England
John Johnson 32 (B S), Sweden Head Married seaman
Mary Johnson 25 Limehouse Wife Married
Edward Johnson 6 Poplar Son (first name difficult to read)
John Johnson 5 Poplar Son
Minnie Johnson 3 Poplar Daughter
William Johnson 6mths Greenwich Son
Mary Ann Hogin 30 Greenwich Boarder charwoman
Ages of the parents are roughly the same and son John. Minnie is a pet name for Mary Ann so she's the right age for Mary Ann in 1891. The child William would have to have died young - there is a space between births on the 1891 census. Leaving Edward if that was what is written to either be a mistake or a child that was called Thomas Edward or Edward Thomas as he is the right age for Thomas on the 1891 census.
Regards
Valda
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I didn't know Minnie is a pet name for Mary Ann so thank you for letting me know. Its quite probable that Edward is Edward Thomas Johnson as William Johnson turned out to be Theodore William Johnson.
Theodore has 12 children, the youngest being my grandmother and 6 of those actually go by their middle names. 2 of them managed to get married using their middle names instead of there Christian names!
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Are we cooking or what !!!! 8)
The certificate you want to purchase of course is the marriage, but be prepared for Johanson son of Johan, son of ..... patronymics.
But well done team, excellent work all round. :)
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Not a bad result in 4 hours ;D
Just wish our ancestors would keep to one name rather than switching them about.
Barbara
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Hey guys, thanks doesn't seem enough but I'm really happy. Unfortunately I have another 2 noob questions...
Is John Johnson a British subject born in Sweden or is it likely that he was Swedish then decided to naturalise? If it is the second, does anybody have any idea as to where I should go to find naturalisation records? I now live in Cheshire but I have been to the FRC a few times when I was living just north of London. I'm guessing the naturalisation records would show John Lawrence Johnson's original name? Maybe he was Johan Lars Johansson :D
I've been told that my grandfathers family (surname Powell) are French Huguenots and settled in Wales in the 1700's. They changed their surname to Powell to fit in with the locals. Would Huguenot records be held with naturalisation records?
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Just to update you all the marriage certificate arrived this afternoon. The details are:
John Johnson (27) Mariner from 5 Alton Street. Father is Lawrence Johnson (deceased), a rigger.
Mary Ann Curle (20) from 41 Goodly Street. Father is John Edward Curle, a mariner.
It would appear they got married on 13 July 1875 at the Church of St Thomas in Stepney.
Whilst the father’s name is Lawrence, which would fit with the information I already have, his surname is Johnson. Maybe this wasn’t such a good line to follow for a relatively new comer to genealogy!
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I can’t see any Lars or Lawrence Johnsons on the 1861-1881 censuses that look hopeful, so probably from here the Johnson line has to be tracked in Sweden.
It is however possible to follow the Curle line from the 1861-1891 censuses
1861 census RG9 288 folio 12 1 John’s Limehouse Middlesex
John Curle 41 Leystone, Essex, Head Married Ship’s Carpenter
Sarah Curle 33 Poplar, Middlesex, Wife Married
Sarah A Curle 12 Poplar, Middlesex, Daughter
Edward Curle 10 Poplar, Middlesex, Son
Walter J Curle 8 Poplar, Middlesex, Son
Mary A Curle 6 Limehouse, Middlesex, Daughter
Henry W Curle 1 Poplar, Middlesex, Son
1871 census RG10 575 folio 20 5 Broomfield Street Bromley St Leonard London
Sarah Curle 43 Poplar, Middlesex, Head Married Husband at Sea
Sarah Curle 20 Poplar, Middlesex, Daughter
Edward Curle 19 Poplar, Middlesex, Son
Walter Curle 16 Poplar, Middlesex, Son
James Curle 12 Limehouse, Middlesex, Son
Henry Curle 10 Poplar, Middlesex, Son
John Curle 6 Limehouse, Middlesex, Son
Fredrick Curle 4 Limehouse, Middlesex, Son
Jane Curle 2 Bromley, Middlesex, Daughter
1881 census RG11 499 folio 133 13A Ellesmere Street, Bromley St Leonard, London
Sarah Curle 53 Poplar, Middlesex, Head Widow
Henry Curle 20 Poplar, Middlesex, Son Labourer out of work
James Curle 17 Limehouse, Middlesex, Son Labourer out of work
John Curle 15 Limehouse, Middlesex, Son Labourer out of work
Jane Curle 13 Bromley, Middlesex, Daughter Servant
1891 census RG12 324 folio 32 9 Johnsons Building Bromley St Leonard London
Curle, Sarah 66 Milwall, London, Head Widow Nurse
Curle, James 28 Limehouse, London, Son Labourer General
Curle, John 26 Limehouse, London, Son Labourer General
Shawn, Gertrude 18 Poplar, London, Visitor, Machinist
Deaths Jun 1879
Curle John Edward 53 Poplar 1c 474
To prove Sarah’s death you really need to find either John and Sarah’s marriage (doesn’t seem to be on FreeBMD) or purchase one of the children’s birth certificates to see if her full name was sarah Hannah.
Deaths Jun 1901
Curle Sarah Hannah 78 Poplar 1c 311
Regards
Valda
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Thank you ever so much Velda. I've been looking myself but I couldn't find anything. If you were here now I'd give you a big hug!!
I have access to the birth marriage and death indexes at the local library so I'll take a look tomorrow morning. I'll be sure to update you if I find the reference ;D