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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: SJ64 on Tuesday 19 November 13 18:43 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I'm new to this & wondering if anyone can advise how I can take this further.
My granddad was born around 1905/06 in Ireland, we think Dublin, but could be Antrim. We have found his marriage certificate in 1926, but can find no record of him before this. We've checked the 1911 census, BMD records & Dublin baptismal records. We think we have found other family members including his father, but not him.
Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks in advance
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
What was his name?
What was his fathers name?
Do either of the witnesses to his marriage have the same surname?
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Hi CaroleW,
We have 3 possible names or combinations of names for my Granddad - Michael, Terence or Eugene. Surname - Moore.
His marriage cert is under the name Terence Moore. His father is Alfred George Moore, Witnesses to the marriage - William Gerady or Grady and Mary Delaney (member of bride's family, poss sister).
thanks
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Could this possibly be his birth? If the family were RC - could Eugene be a confirmation name?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBLH-8ZP
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Sorry no, we've tried this one - father's name is Philip Moore, Mother's surname is Fitzpatrick, so doesn't tally with the information we know.
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Hi and welcome
What was father's occupation?
heywood
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Hi and welcome to Roots
Have you tried the surname Moor without the e or More
Margp
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Hi Heywood,
Great Grandfather - Alfred Moore was a Bookbinder - wife was Mary Wheatley.
Alfred Moore was born in Antrim, but moved to Dublin where he was married. We think we've found Alfred on the 1911 census & by then he was a widower, but Granddad is missing. From what we know we would expect him to be about 5 or 6 in 1911.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Mountpleasant_Buildings/45310/
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Have you looked at this family- unfortunately there is no Michael, Terence or Eugene :-\
1901 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Merchants_Quay/St__Michael_s_Terrace/1344900/) census
1911 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Mountpleasant_Buildings/45310/)
but there is an Antrim connection - Alfred and also Dublin.
I saw your post as I was about to post but left it anyway as we are on the same lines.
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Perhaps he was John or James?
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Hi
I have noted that on the 1911 census, that it states that there were, 10 children born and 7 still living, together with information from the 1901 census, that means that all there children are accounted for
Margp
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Thanks Heywood,
This is the family, but where is granddad? We've tried to see if he was staying with relations, but so far have had no luck with this. We're beginning to think that we might have the wrong first name & that he was registered on the census as either John or James (only because the ages are about right), but he was never referred to by those names. We've asked for copies of these, but they haven't arrived yet. I don't know whether they will get us any further.
Whilst writing, I see you're thinking the same about him being John or James. Do you know beside the birth certificates if there are any other documents I should be checking ?
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Yoiu may find a baptism somewhere - I have looked here which is probably the best site for Dublin baptisms but can't see anything http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
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Hi
I have noted that on the 1911 census, that it states that there were, 10 children born and 7 still living, together with information from the 1901 census, that means that all there children are accounted for
Margp
If all the children are accounted for, I think that he may be John or James
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Hi
Could this be one of there children who died
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FTFB-32P
Margp
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Dear CaroleW, Heywood & MargP,
We're tried the baptismal records for Dublin & whilst we've found most of the children, again he is missing. It sounds like we'll have to wait for the birth records of John & James to arrive to see if this gives us further clues.
Whilst writing, I would like to thank you all for your help. I wasn't expecting responses so quickly. You've confirmed that we are on the right track. :)
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Hi
Could this be one of there children who died
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FTFB-32P
Margp
This looks like the birth for the child who died, it would be interesting to know if he did belong to Alfred and Mary
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBLH-8ZP
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Hi MargP,
I think we'll probably have to get the death cert for this. If it is for the other family - Philip Moore/Fitzpatrick, it will make sense. However, if it turns out to be my family, it will lead to even more questions.
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Hi
Well there is always a reason why we hit these brick walls, either James or John is Terence and he changed his name for some reason, it is usually, they have been married before, or in trouble with the police.
Have you checked, if there is a connection with Phillip Moore, there is a possibility that this may be your Terence, he may have known Alfred and Mary's family and put them down has his family, to cover his track's, a bit far fetched I know, but you have to think outside the box, in situation's like this, and I do have first hand knowledge of this happening in my tree.
Margp
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MargP,
A lot of names are coming up in the family more than once - e.g. lots of Alfreds & Georges. So far we have no connection to any Philips. We were just reading another chat line that said that sometimes a child could have died & the next child given the same name. Don't know if you've heard of that before.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=246894.msg1358199#msg1358199.
I think for now we need to follow your suggestions & track down John/James & deceased child to see what that gives us. Many thanks
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Have you found Phillip on the census, and yes I have come across, where if a child has died, they will name there next child the same, but there should be some sort of record for him, and in this case, the only one that can be found is the one that belongs to Phillip.
Marg
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Hi
If he married has Terence, where does the information come from, for the names, Michael and Eugene
Marg
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Terence, Michael & Eugene are names he told the family. I think that if he did have another name, it was changed early on & he didn't know about it.
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Apologies if I'm repeated what has already been posted but most of the children's baptisms are available online and fit with the children in 1901 census.
Thomas George (1889) (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/c631360013421) 1901- Thomas
Alice Mary (1890) (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/6df2f60014024) 1901- Alice
William Christopher (1892) (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/e9cfa00014672) 1901- William
Alfred Edward (1894) (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/2c08860015425) 1901- Alfred
George (1895) (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0edff30016111) died before 1901?
Walter Joseph (1897) (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/2dac840028363) 1901- Walter
c1901- Jack
Mary Josephine (1902) (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/7e778a0029744)
c1903- John
Joseph Edward (1906) (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/1772940030945) is this James in 1911?
Alice Mary Church is likely related through Alfred's wife-
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/8bf2640016602
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Was Alfred perhaps a Protestant who converted in order to marry (as this baptism would indicate)?
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/cd39370254515
www.familysearch has other children for George Moore & Mary Jane Cox.
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Hi
Where did Terence marry
Margp
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Hi
Have you found a Death Record for Mary
Margp
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Based on all the research to date
Alfred and Mary married in 1880 based on 1911 census where Alfred stated married 21 years
Possible marriage of Alfred MOORE & Mary WHEATLEY (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYWV-MMR)
Also possible marriage of Terence MOORE (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYN4-CZ2)
LINK to 1901 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Merchants_Quay/St__Michael_s_Terrace/1344900/)
LINK to 1911 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Mountpleasant_Buildings/45310/); Alfred states that there were 10 children of which either 7 or 9 were alive. (bad handwriting)
Aghadowey has previously listed 10 children, I think John and Jack is the same child as you can see none of the family aged by exactly ten years between census
There is a JM in the Richmond Hospital[/url] in 1901 with tonsilitis who may be the missing John/Jack in 1901.
There are several prison records that match the family names when at the Capel Street and Mount Pleasant Buildings addresses; LINK (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aalfred%7E%20%2Bsurname%3Amoore%7E%20%2Brecord_country%3AIreland%20%2Brecord_subcountry%3AIreland%2CDublin%20%2Bspouse_givenname%3Amary%7E%20%2Bspouse_surname%3Awheatley%7E&collection_id=2043780) - These could help place where the family were and other details e.g. next of kin – I didn’t go through all the entries to check but in one there was a John MOORE aged 21 in 1922 of Harold’s Cross and his next of kin was his sister Alice CAMPBELL of Mount Pleasant Buildings
This is a possible death for Alfred MOORE but as it is in Cork needs verification (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRV6-DJD)
Based on the registered deaths between 1901 and 1911 of a Mary MOORE born between 1864 and 1875
(based on age on 1901 census plus a band of error) there are only three possiblilites (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Amary~%20%2Bsurname%3Amoore~%20%2Brecord_country%3AIreland%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1864-1875~%20%2Bdeath_place%3A%22dublin%20south%22~%20%2Bdeath_year%3A1906-1911~)
Possible death for George (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FT6L-RMK)
Possibility for Mary in 1911 as a nurse child at an address near to Alfred (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Robert_s_Cottages/44342/)
I know that all this information does not clarify who Terence who married in 1926 really was.
My feelings are; the family comprised of
1. 1889 Thomas George
2. 1890 Alice Mary (m Frederick G Campbell in 1915 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYXT-N29) subject to verification)
3. 1892 William Christopher
4. 1894 Alfred Edward
5. 1895 George (died 1900 aged 5, subject to verification)
6. 1897 Walter Joseph
7. 1902 Mary Josephine
8. 1900 John
9. 1906 Joseph Edward/James?
10. ???? James
That if James and Joseph are the same person then Terence was either born between 1900 and 1906 as the 10th child
That if James and Joseph are two different people that Terence was one of them using a new name
In the prison records there are references to “known as” so the use of various names is recorded
Baptisms of Wheatley family (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?name2fm=alice&name2l=purcell&namefm=john&namel=wheatley&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=&submit=Search&sort=&pageSize=100&diocese=&parish=¢ury=&decade=&exact=&ddB=&ddM=&ddD=&mmB=&mmM=&mmD=&yyB=&yyM=&yyD=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&member0=&member1=&member2=&member3=&member4=&member5=&member6=&member7=&member8=&member9=&namef0=&namef1=&namef2=&namef3=&namef4=&namef5=&namef6=&namef7=&namef8=&namef9=&namel0=&namel1=&namel2=&namel3=&namel4=&namel5=&namel6=&namel7=&namel8=&namel9=&keyword=) based on Mary and Bridget (on 1901 census) ages and details; the names tie in with Alice as their mother etc.
Plenty for you to think about!! Happy Hunting
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Very good work myluck
With that Prison Record, I am now leaning towards John has being Terence, does it give any more information, on what his crime was, and how long his sentence was
Margp
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If you click on 'explore viewing options you will see-
This image is available:
When using the site at a FamilySearch Center.
To signed-in members of supporting organizations.
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If you click on 'explore viewing options you will see-
This image is available:
When using the site at a FamilySearch Center.
To signed-in members of supporting organizations.
Hi, I have tried that and it just takes me to a map of the world ////
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As the instructions say- you have to either go to a FamilySearch Center or have online access through a supporting organisation to view more.
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Thank you aghadowey
I have found it through FindMyPast
Margp
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FindMyPast was where I got the additional info but was aware of copyright etc.
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Its nothing major
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Dear all,
You've given me loads to investigate. It will take a while to track down what is relevant & what's not, but hopefully we're on the right track.
I'd like to thank everyone who has helped on this.
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Sorry to have come in late to this thread but I've only just discovered it!
Alice Mary Moore married one of my mother's brothers so I am distantly related to the Moores. With regard to the question in this thread about a Eugene, I am pretty sure that was indeed a Eugene among the brothers. I will try to find out more from a family contact.
It seems that their mother Mary died sometime between 1901 and 1911 (more precisely between 1906 when Joseph was born, and 1911). In the 1911 census, Alice is living with her widower father and the two youngest brothers. At the time of that census, several of the older brothers were in St Kevin's Reformatory at Powerscourt - it must have been a tough time for them.
I'd be interested to know if anyone has been able to confirm that Alfred and Mary married in 1888 and, if so, what their parents' name were.
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Myluck - I can confirm that Alice Mary Moore did indeed marry Frederick George Campbell (he was my mother's uncle). The Moores and my mother's family (who were Thwaites) were living in Mount Pleasant Buildings, Rathmines, at that time.
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I'd be interested to know if anyone has been able to confirm that Alfred and Mary married in 1888 and, if so, what their parents' name were.
Marriage: Alfred George Moore, July/Sept.1888 Dublin South Registration District, volume 2 page 587 (Mary Teresa Wheatley on same page). Civil marriage certificate only list fathers' names & occupations.
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Hi Pollux83,
You've thrown up some new questions for me in my search.
I was wondering if you could give me some more information about Frederick Campbell? If you've ever heard the surname Reynolds in connection with Alice Moore. Also, does the name Kitty Thwaites mean anything to you?
Lastly, any information you could give on Eugene would be appreciated, as he remains a mystery.
Hi aghadowey,
We think this is Alfred Moore's baptismal record.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/cd39370254515.
We've come across the surname Purcell for Mary's mother, but cannot confirm that yet.
Many thanks.
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Hi aghadowey,
We think this is Alfred Moore's baptismal record.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/cd39370254515.
We've come across the surname Purcell for Mary's mother, but cannot confirm that yet.
Many thanks.
Yes, I posted that link earlier (reply #24 on 19 November)
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SJ64 - I will send you a PM regarding your questions.
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Hey Pollux!
I am so sorry! You sent me a PM re the Thwaites family in Jan and for some reason I am prevented from replying to PMs,so I hope you get this. I have much info on the Thwaites if you still need info.
Cheers
Amorelle
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Hi Amorelle,
Not related to the topic, but the reason you can't reply by PM I think is because you have only posted twice, so reply to this and then you will be able to PM!
Best wishes,
Copperbeech5
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Thankyou Copperbeech! This has to be the most convoluted website ever! x