RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: familysleuth on Saturday 16 November 13 10:08 GMT (UK)
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I have been searching in other boards for possible links - well, anything really!- to give me information about my great grandfather, Thomas Joyce. I wonder if one of you experts in Irish records could point me any closer to finding information.
Here is what I have at the moment:
Thomas Joyce born abt 1855 in Armagh with parents Andrew Joyce and Rachel Black (from his death cert in NZ 1933). I have no other info about him except he was a protestant, a Baker, had an awful marriage and his children disliked him. This is all a bit sad. He may have come out to NZ on the Assaye in 1874. He named his only son William Thomas Joyce.
I looked up the 1901/1911 census and found a mother Rachel (widow, 75 in 1901), John (b 1853) and Henary (b. 1863) (their spelling) unmarried farmers in Kilmore, Brackagh. They looked possible.
I looked up marriages in civil reg and roots.ie - nothing.
I looked up births in civil reg and roots ie - nothing
I looked up will calendars and found an Andrew Joyce an executor to a will in Brackagh 1876
I looked up Griffiths Valuation and found Andrew Joyce in Kilmore Armagh
I looked up civil reg for deaths and found a Rachel Joyce in Banbridge at age 84 in 1905 (this age does not match census 1901 but would be consistent with not appearing in 1911 census)
I looked up civil reg for deaths and found an Andrew Joyce 1898 Banbridge
I looked up the Orange Covenant and a John and Henry signed in Brackagh. I compared the signature of John to the census signatures and to my (untrained) eye they are very similiar.
I had some help before regarding a will for a John Joyce in Brackagh in 1929 but I have been trying to find it on Proni again and the database seems not to be searching properly for me. If I can get a reg number I will try to order it.
Joyce is not a VERY common Armagh name. I have a cluster of andrew, rachel, thomas and william in the kilmore area in Brackagh. and from doing a search on the internet, it appears that there is a Banbridge in Armagh (I thought it was in county Down?). Would this be the registration place for Brackagh?
I have been following the 'all born in Armagh' possibility, but of course this may be incorrect.
Any help gratefully received!
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Thinking out to the side for a moment (siblings), the RootsIreland index search for Joyces with father Andrew marrying in County Armagh in the "right" timeframe brings back a Rachel Joyce marrying a Joseph Fowler in 1873. Might be worth paying to view...
V-e-r-y speculative, I know. :)
Edited to add: BTW, here is the family in 1901 and 1911 (Mullahead is comforting to note):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Mullahead/Mullahead/1020663/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Mullahead__Rural_/Mullahead/331998/
Familysearch has birth/baptisms for several of the children.
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To start with here's a link to 1901 census entry-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Mullahead/Brackagh/1020480
Now for 1911-
here's John and brother Henary still living together-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Mullahead__Rural_/Brackagh/331851
based on location and names of the children alone I would keep this record in mind-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Mullahead__Rural_/Brackagh/331878
Here's the family of George and Anne in 1901 (Annie widowed by 1911)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Mullahead/Brackagh/1020500
Here's the John Joyce who died in 1929-
"Joyce John of Brackagh county Armagh farmer died 9 December 1929 Probate Belfast 20 February to William John Fowler farmer. Effects £158 10s."
One thing I didn't see mentioned in your list was the Valuation Revision Books which follow on from the printed Griffith's Valuation. They are now online (free) on PRONI's site-
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
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thanks - seems as if I have been on the right track for finding some connections between these people.....
sooooo...... that John Joyce left his money to his sister's husband - her family now, I guess. They do seem to come together but we need the connection to Thomas!
any thoughts on the Banbridge registrations? do they belong to the Brackagh area?
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There's also an Elizabeth Joyce (father Andrew) who married a Thomas Balmer in 1878 in Mullavilly Parish Church / CoI, her father was Andrew, a farmer.
As I'm searching, not much comes back but Mullavilly Parish Church / CoI seems to crop up all the time...
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I was not paying attention - Banbridge is the poor law union - and I think the registration district. It therefore makes sense for the Andrew Joyce and Rachel Joyce to have death regs there.
What am I likely to find on the death registration - actual document, or is only an index available?
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sooooo...... that John Joyce left his money to his sister's husband - her family now, I guess.
No, William John Fowler applied for administration of the estate but he would have had to follow what John Joyce wrote in his Will.
Yes, the Poor Law Union is usually the same as the Registration District.
What am I likely to find on the death registration - actual document, or is only an index available?
You will find the details needed to order a death certificate in the online civil registration index (www.familysearch.org) but to get the full details (place and cause of death, date, etc.) you would need to order the actual certificate. See here for details included on the certificate with links on ordering research copy (4 euros) from Roscommon-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=433043.0
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Hi,
In 1855 a Thomas Joyce married Anne Gilmer in Mullavilly Church Of Ireland.
Regards
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Thanks very much for your replies..... and after I went to the link, it answered my next questions about what I may find on a death certificate!
Could someone speculate as to why I can't find a marriage registration for Andrew Joyce and Rachel Black? there is one that fits in Kilmore for a Rachel Black in 1845, but she marries Samuel Russell - but nothing at all for Andrew Joyce in the time frame, and nothing linking him with a 'Rachel'. I have a subscription to FindMyPast and have been cross-checking - I have found some discrepancies between these indexes.... mentioned in one, not mentioned in the other etc.
I have considered that this was Rachel's 2nd marriage, with the informant putting her maiden name on Thomas' death cert.... nothing there either that matches (but I am open to help!).
Gaffy, can you tell me where you were searching to get the Mullavilly church records?
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Civil registration of Catholic marriages began in 1964 and non-Catholic ones from 1845. Before these dates you won't find the marriage listed in the civil registration index.
There may or may not be a surviving church reocrd of the marriage buit not all surviving records are online.
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I suppose (if this is Andrew and Rachel in Kilmore) they could have been married prior to 1845. This Rachel would have been about 19- 24 years old. So maybe marriage is not available, thanks!
Sorry for going over this again..... great info on the ordering of certificates, but I am still not sure how to do it. Am I right that I cannot order a death certificate online, but must post a money order? when I go to the link for GRO, the certs cost 20 pounds, not 4. I can't find a downloadable document to send by post, as the information suggests in the link for. This is so basic, sorry if I am being a pest!
this is where I went: You can search the registrations for all Ireland up to 1922, and for Republic of Ireland up to 1958.
Certs are available by post from the GRO. Download the order form from the GRO website - see : http://www.groireland.ie/apply_for_a_cert.htm
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This might answer your questions re: ordering certificates-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0
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ok, I found the 'by post' form and will chance it for a copy of Rachel Joyce's death cert - see if there is anything trying that lady with the parents of my Thomas Joyce.
thanks everyone for your help!!
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I am looking for my gtgtgt grandmother Isabella JOYCE whose husband #1 was ...... Armstrong his first name looks like G ...nes... father of my gtgtgrandad Valentine Armstrong born 1809ca . Isabella married 2ndly..... Houston a Spirit merchant. They had atleast 1 daughter Elizabeth born 1826ish .
Valentine says he's born Seagoe Armagh . I know we are related to the Joyce family of Dromlin maybe County Down
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Hi there Mona - I am just off to work - but just wanted to tell you that seagoe crops up re Joyces in Griffiths valuation. I have just had some luck finding andrew Joyce in the newspaper - a money dispute, and James Joyce is named as his brother. I am starting to feel that these Joyces are the immediate family of my Thomas, but still need something a bit more definite.... hope the death certs get me somewhere. I will have a look for your people this evening (unless others can't help you in the meantime) cheers!
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Thanks...hope you keep me informed.......William/John/ Edward/Charles/ George are 3 males names given to my granny's brothers.
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I would like to thank all who supported my recent search. I sent away for death certs of Andrew Joyce and Rachel Joyce - going on my assumptions - and what I found indicates (am cautious here) more weight to my belief that I have here Andrew Joyce and Rachel Black. Andrew's death cert is consistent with dates & places and Rachel's has her as the widow of Andrew Joyce. Both have Rachel Fowler (who we know was John Joyce's sister because of his will) as a daughter and informant of their deaths. The very best outcome would have been the inclusion of Rachel's maiden name.... but alas....However I was very pleased with this outcome, and delighted with the swift response to my letter to PRONI - I received the certs by email within 2 weeks! Thanks to all!
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Hi, I actually live in Brackagh and know where the Joyce family lived. If I can help please let me know.
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Dear Elaine, thank you so much for replying to me!
2 years ago I went to Portadown (after attending a genealogy seminar in Belfast) and roamed around the country looking for landmarks. using the griffiths valuation I think I pinpointed it to near these crossroads. please look to tell me if I am anywhere near the right place. I think their farmhouse was demolished. nearby were John Joyce and Jane Joyce but I do not know if this John is a relative of Andrew. I only found one brother, James Joyce, but I believe he lived in Portadown, and was not a famer. I would be very happy to correspond with you by email, if you wouldn't mind - this is so exciting for me!
I could not find contemporary Joyce relatives in the area, and it appears the name has died out there..?
best wishes, Louise
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Andrew Joyce of Moyallon in Tullylish parish married Rachel Black of Knock 12/12/1840. Seagoe COI Their first child was bapt at Seagoe Feb 21, 1841 and named William. They were living in Moyallon at the time.
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yes, I have that information, thank you!
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Moyallan townland in Tullylish Civil Parish.
https://www.townlands.ie/down/iveagh-lower-upper-half/tullylish/tullylish/moyallan/
Brackagh townland in Kilmore (Lower Orior portion) Civil Parish.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/orior-lower/kilmore-lower-orior-portion/mullahead-rural/brackagh/
Approximately one kilometre apart.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4669223#map=14/54.3975/-6.4102
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Hi Louise, I’m excited too!
I just love family history and helping people find a trace of their ancestors.
A lovely person I met on this site helped me immensely in my search so I’m only too happy to do the same.
You were very close when you were at the crossroads and yes the house was knocked down. I remember the derelict house as does my husband who has lived here virtually all his life.
There were Joyce daughters who married locally and I can put you in touch with their descendants.
Please do email me - I tell you more then.
Kind regards, Elaine
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thank you again, Elaine. I have more photos - the one I attached (very large, sorry!) was one where I think some of their property was on the left hand side. I will PM you with my email. best wishes, Louise