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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: katelisabeth on Thursday 14 November 13 23:27 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I'm trying to find out a bit more about a soldier called Percy Hoople, killed in France during the First World War, who would've been my great uncle. I've been looking into my family history recently and found him. Here's what I know so far:
Born around 1895 in Liverpool
Enlisted on 4th August (possibly September? I can't access the record anymore to check :( ) 1914, aged 19. Served in the Kings Liverpool Regiment, 13th battalion.
Rank: Private
Number: 15797
Died 31st August 1918
Buried at Ecoust-St Mein Cemetery, France, in the Pas De Calais Area
We don't have any surviving documents of his at all, and there are sadly no living relatives of ours who would have anything of his. Anything we found out was from ancestry.com, on there we found his service record and death record and little else. Does anybody know where I can find any more information on him? I've searched online without much luck. I'm after things like where the battalion was posted on the day he died/what was happening, and other movements of the battalion throughout the war. A photograph of the battalion would be brilliant, I did find one on liverpoolremembrance.weebly.com that another user had posted, but I have no guarantee that it is the 13th battalion, or any idea which one is him if he is indeed in the picture somewhere. Even better would be an individual photo of him, which I understand is probably a long shot. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Kate
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Hi Kate,
Welcome to the forum. The military records for Percy are still on Ancestry if you no longer have a subscription you can view them at your local library if you live in the Liverpool area all libraries have Ancestry and Find My Past free on the computers. Be sure to save all of these records to a storage device such as a pen drive or e-mail them to yourself. There are some military experts who visit the Liverpool & SW Lancs forum if you don't have any luck on here try there next:-
http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/viewforum.php?f=30&sid=ecdb19718a9df09d159bd628b01b37d0
Blue
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
If you click on the PDF file on the cwgc website - it gives a tiny bit of info re: where he died and the battle there in 1918 www.cwgc.org
There are 28 images on his WW1 service record on Ancestry as it shows 2 entries - one with 10 and the other with 18. I suspect some are duplicated but sound advice above re: downloading them onto a pen drive etc
His medal Roll Index card shows he was awarded the British & Victory medals and that he entered France on 7.11.1915
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Hi Kate - Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Some basic info on King's Liverpool here
http://www.1914-1918.net/kings.htm
"13th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Seaforth in September 1914 as part of K3 and attached as Army Troops to 25th Division.
February 1915 : transferred to 76th Brigade in same Division.
27 September 1915 : landed at Le Havre.
15 October 1915 : transferred with Brigade to 3rd Division.
23 October 1915 : transferred to 8th Brigade in same Division.
4 April 1916 : transferred to 9th Brigade in same Division"
So - when researching what they were doing you not only look for the 13th Bn King's Liverpool Regiment but also which Brigade they were with and which Division.
At the time of his death in 1918 that would be 9th Brigade 3rd Division.
That is presuming he stayed with 13th Bn all the way through. You also need to check his papers very carefully as he may have moved around to other Battalions (for example after an injury or sickness or re-organisation etc).
Milly
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There is some interesting info on the 3rd Division and 7,8 & 9 Brigade here which will tell you which battles they were involved in
http://www.1914-1918.net/3div.htm
Milly
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Having a quick look shows his identity discs were sent to his father who wrote back saying they were not the right ones. He also said that the manner & place of Percy's death seemed to be enveloped in mystery and asked where he could get an explanation
There is various correspondance which suggests there was some confusion as to where and when he died
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And excellent news...
National Archives have digitised the War Diaries for the 13th Bn which you can download for the very good value price of £3.86! You get a lot of pages for your money and it is well worth doing
Part 1 1915 Sept. - 1916 Mar
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C4554573
Part 2 1916 Apr. - 1919 Mar
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C4554580
You probably won't find his name listed specifically but you won't get a more detailed account of what they were up to generally. There is an example of a few pages of what you get here...http://thewarmemorial.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/war-diary-13th-battalion-kings.html
If you can work out from his papers which company he was with (within the 13th eg A, B, C D Company) you will get even more specific details. His papers may not tell you though.
Milly
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The War Diary for the 13th Bn reports,
“On 30th August 1918, the Battalion moved up to the line for an attack on ECOUST.
On 31st they attacked and were successful in obtaining their objectives as did the 1st Gordon Highlanders on their left. The Battalion on the right flank however did not get their objectioves and this necessitated a withdrawal temporarily and subsequently the Battalion re-took the objective, though suffering heavy casualties.
Estimated casualties, 9 officers and 200 other ranks.”
Those figures will have included the wounded and missing. CWGC actually reports 77 deaths for the Battalion on 31st, with another 16 dying in the next three days.
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Thanks for the welcomes everyone! :) And for replying so quickly, didn't expect so many so soon!
Blue: I do live in Liverpool but I'm down in London at uni at the mo, sadly being a poor student I couldn't afford ancestry and had to cancel. Didn't know you could access it at the libraries, I'll be sure to check it out next time I'm home. Saving the records is a great idea too. I'll bare that other forum in mind too.
CaroleW: I've been on cwgc and found his grave but didn't see the pdf so I'll have a look. Where did you find that out about his discs, was that on Ancestry? The plot thickens!
Milly: Sorry I'm not really familiar with all the military organisation, brigades and divisions and all that, could you explain it to me a bit? He's marked as that battalion on his grave so I think he stayed, whether or not he moved around in between I don't know until I can get a look at his papers. That's great the diaries are up for download, I'll definitely be getting those. I saw they're at the museum in Liverpool so I'll be sure to have a look when I'm next up there.
Stephen Nulty: That's great to finally know what he was doing that day. From what I understand Ecoust was a village, is that right?
This is the photo I found, both on ww1photos.com and liverpoolremembrance.com
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_uF1vddxFoSg/SygBMhw2kzI/AAAAAAAAAkE/SfW8wXM9nQM/s800/Signallers%20Of%20The%20Kings%20Liverpool%20Regiment.jpg (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_uF1vddxFoSg/SygBMhw2kzI/AAAAAAAAAkE/SfW8wXM9nQM/s800/Signallers%20Of%20The%20Kings%20Liverpool%20Regiment.jpg)
ww1photos.com says it's signallers of the regiment, while the user on the other site said it was just the battalion, can anyone clarify?
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Milly: Sorry I'm not really familiar with all the military organisation, brigades and divisions and all that, could you explain it to me a bit?
Unfortunately it's not an easy thing to explain... and everyone explains it differently ::)
Here is a good description of what a BATTALION and COMPANY was from the excellent 1914-1918 website
http://www.1914-1918.net/whatbatt.htm
And here is my effort at an explanation - in very rough terms as it generally relates to Infantry. (It varies depending on which part of the military you are talking about)
TEAM/SQUAD/PLATOON/COMPANY
In an Infantry Regiment Battalion there were smaller sub-groups of men:
Within each Battalion there were usually 4 Companies.
Within each Company there were usually 4 Platoons (eg approx 20-30 men usually led by a Sergeant)
The Platoon was further broken down into Squads and then Teams
BATTALION: King's Liverpool had lots of BATTALIONS (approx 1000 men to each Bn and about 30 officers)
BRIGADE: These Battalions were assigned to various BRIGADES along with Battalions from other Regiments. (In this instance 13th Bn were part of 25th Brigade, then 76th Brigade and then 8th Brigade in 1915 moving to 9th Brigade in 1916.
See list of all the brigades here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_infantry_brigades_of_the_First_World_War
DIVISION: A number of these Brigades were grouped together with other Brigades as part of a DIVISION. (In this instance the 3rd Division).
See list of Divisions here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_divisions_in_World_War_I
ARMY GROUP: This refers to a group of DIVISIONS which form a bigger group.
13th Bn King's Liverpool were formed as part of "Kitchener's New Army".
The were attached to 25TH Division which was part of K3 (ie Kitcheners Army Group K3)
See her for more info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchener's_Army
Above Army groups were various commands and other hierarchy which I won't go into now!
I hope I got that right (I am sure I will be corrected if not)
Milly
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Hi
Where did you find that out about his discs, was that on Ancestry? The plot thickens!
Yes it was.
Here's the link to the WW1 Service records
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wxe/
Here are the URL's to both sets of records (some records are duplicated) I used Rootschat "shrink a link" to reduce the length of the URL
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wxc/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wxd/
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Kate - I know it's 4 years since your post but hopefully you get to read this.
Was searching for where my grandmother grew up and eventually arrived here.
Her name was Gertrude Hoople......sister to Percy. So we must have some distant connection.
Feel sure I would have some interesting family info for you that's been passed down.
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Kate - I know it's 4 years since your post but hopefully you get to read this.
Was searching for where my grandmother grew up and eventually arrived here.
Her name was Gertrude Hoople......sister to Percy. So we must have some distant connection.
Feel sure I would have some interesting family info for you that's been passed down.
@theredbishop, thanks for replying! I've not got much further with Percy in all that time since posting this. I checked our tree and Gertrude is indeed on there. I have no info for her besides a census with them all on. It'd be great if you could share what you've found!
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Hello Kate
On your tree, which of Percy's siblings are you related to.
Are you specifically after info on Percy or the Hooples' in general.
I knew my grandmother and she always had tales of them all growing up at the family shop on Everton Road. The regiment Percy joined was a few doors down from the shop and the old barracks still exists. The Liverpool Echo were trying to save it, there's an article on line.
My mother (Gertrudes daughter) died last year and I've still a number of boxes to go through. Seem to remember seeing a photo of Percy which will be in there somewhere........but it may take sometime to find.
Paul
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Hello Kate
On your tree, which of Percy's siblings are you related to.
Are you specifically after info on Percy or the Hooples' in general.
I knew my grandmother and she always had tales of them all growing up at the family shop on Everton Road. The regiment Percy joined was a few doors down from the shop and the old barracks still exists. The Liverpool Echo were trying to save it, there's an article on line.
My mother (Gertrudes daughter) died last year and I've still a number of boxes to go through. Seem to remember seeing a photo of Percy which will be in there somewhere........but it may take sometime to find.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Eric Hoople, my grandfather, was the second son from William's second marriage, making Percy his half brother and my great uncle. Grandad was born in 1921. We don't know how well he knew his half siblings, but he mentioned the shop, and according to mum he used to speak of one of them, I think it was Bertha.
We are interested in all of the Hooples, but Percy particularly intrigued us due to his service in WW1. We still live in Liverpool and regularly pass Everton Road and his old barracks. I'd be amazing to see a picture of him! (if and when you find one)