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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: majm on Saturday 09 November 13 05:00 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
May I please ask a big favour of you.
Would you please see if you can help find any details to help us on the following thread that our late RChatter Robyn was working on to help our newbie RChatter Bart.
Here's the link.... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=590809.0
If you can help, please let us know, as my OH is willing to organise for us to drive down to Sydney and go out there, but it will be in the New Year at the earliest.
Old Catholic Cemetery
Mortuary 1
Area: 6
Grave: 66
Seems there's two buried there, but no headstone MI available. The NSW BDM online index is NOT giving us any details for one of those buried there.
Many many thanks
Cheers, JM (we are at Nords Wharf, just south of Swansea)
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If you are able to help, please either pop a post on the other thread, or at least send a PM through, so we are not doubling up each others efforts.
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Could you tell me exactly what you want at Rookwood, is it a photo of grave 66 ?
The Rookwood Catholic Site records http://www.catholiccemeteries.com.au/
Names: James Napthlia
Service Date: 12 Aug 1883
Date of Death:
Age: 46
Gender: M
Register Number: 15242
Burial Type: Burial
Location: Section Grave Mortuary 1
Area : 6 Grave : 66
Interred in this burial site
Napthlia James 12 Aug 1883 46 SEC*M1*6**66
Silva David 30 Jul 1879 2 H SEC*M1*6**66
Adjoining burial sites
Almedo William 09 Jun 1879 22 SEC*M1*6**65
Feeney Mary 01 Jul 1879 40 SEC*M1*6**67
Cass
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Hi Cass
Thanks for replying
If A volunteer had stacks of time And could potter and most likely make a note of what tools we need to fetch for a tidy up as likely a long forgotten grave .... then with camera or pen and paper look for details at neighbours graves as well as a photo of Jane's gravesite..... remembering likely a shared grave with weee two hour baby seemingly unrelated.......
We have gravesite info with HER burial date and mishmash Rookwood transcript of her names so Jane is transcribed as James and her surname is off too. We have NO rego for her death so I am hoping we can have some token showing where she rests.
And any bit of help is welcome
Cheers JM
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Hi
The Rookwood Catholic Site records http://www.catholiccemeteries.com.au/
Names: James Napthlia
Service Date: 12 Aug 1883
Date of Death:
Age: 46
Gender: M
Register Number: 15242
Burial Type: Burial
Location: Section Grave Mortuary 1
Area : 6 Grave : 66
Interred in this burial site
Napthlia James 12 Aug 1883 46 SEC*M1*6**66
Silva David 30 Jul 1879 2 H SEC*M1*6**66
Cass
Isn't it odd that Jane would be interred with an already buried baby, who died 4 years previously?
You would think there must be some connection.
Also - maybe a red herring, but - Jane was nee Batwell, according to the other thread, and there is a mention of someone in Parramatta asylum; there is a death for Thomas BATWELL at Parramatta in 1883:
6845/1883 BATWELL THOMAS AGE 76 YEARS DIED PARRAMATTA PARRAMATTA
Dawn M
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Dawn,
Thomas Batwell is the father of Jane Batwell.
died 10 Apr 1883 of Apoplexy
Buried in St John's Cemetery, Parramatta, NSW C of E.
What is strange though, is there is no mention of any of his children on the death certificate.
He had 8 children, 3 were deceased by 1883.
His wife died in 1866.
Further info can be seen here: http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/14278176/person/84739797 (http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/14278176/person/84739797)
Bart
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Thanks Bart
Thought the coincidence was pretty conclusive :) :) :)
Dawn M
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Re any connection between the wee baby David and Jane...
I hope I am not starting an urban myth..... but may I share the following piece of oral history, directly handed to me in my childhood.
Back in the 1950s, JM (a "girl child" )and a Grandparent are at a cemetery tidying up a grave for Grandparent's parents. Grandparent was having a wonderful conversation with deceased parents. JM wandered off to look around further to see if others were also having similar conversations with the headstones. So JM started to read the gravestones..... and noticed several wee babies.
Grandparent realised that JM was confronted by this discovery of babies much younger than JM had already succumbed. JM's Grandparent then took JM to a number of graves and let JM read the markers there. In many instances wee babies were memoralised on a footstone, and a lady on a headstone, same grave, different time frames. different surnames, same religion. Grandparent explained to JM this was often done by the funeral directors and the clergy working together to make sure there was a mother figure there to protect the wee baby "until the end of time". From memory these were all pre WWI graves....
I have not ever followed that piece of oral history through to confirm or contradict. As an adult I have always considered it was simply a special way my Grandparent sorted out an issue for me on that cemetery visit.
Cheers, JM
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Not quite sure what you're getting at, JM, but might note here that we are talking about burial records at Rookwood, not necessarily MIs.
(Which is why I queried that Jane was the second burial, not the first, going by the dates)
Frinstance. my GGF is on the Rookwood Catholic website, but he doesn't have a headstone of any kind (according to them)
Dawn M
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From previous thread
There is no headstone for either Jane NAPTHALI/NAPTHLIA or David SILVA at Rookwood Catholic.
Cando
What is your ancestor's name Dawn? There is a resource with MI's for Rookwood Cemetery.
Cando
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Hi JM
I am using a tablet computer due to storms, so can't get quotes to work.
I had also heard something similar about babies. Back in the day stillborns were just taken from mothers and they were given no funeral. I heard they were just buried in the cemetery in a grave with someone else. This sounds correct as there was no funeral for the child.
i assume the graves weren't marked though.
however, I recognise that the Silva baby wasn't a stillborn and he was buried first.
I am wondering if the baby's parents were friends of neighbours of Jane. Perhaps they told her husband that they has a grave with just one small coffin in it. Again this is speculation.
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What is your ancestor's name Dawn? There is a resource with MI's for Rookwood Cemetery.
Cando
hi Cando. My Dad's GF, Charles Joseph DENYS. I have his DC (1894) and I had to send a copy to Rookwood so they could fix their entry as they had him with some garbled surname :) :) :)
Interestingly, their entry says FD unknown, yet it is named clearly on the DC ???
Dawn M
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Well they corrected the entry on their database :).
DENYS Charles Joseph 70 years
Service Date 4 Jul 1894
Date of Death 1 Jul 1894
Register# 30642
Burial Type Burial
Location Section Grave Mortuary 1 Area GG Grave 758
Sadly there are no DENYS MI's listed on my resource at Rookwood Cemetery.
I understand from staff of a large cemetery in Melbourne who don't have their records online, that the condition of some of the older Burial Orders and Burial Registers are pretty poor. Like all paper based records there are obviously errors which perpetuate when they are not transcribed correctly. I have done a fair bit of transcribing of records over the years and must admit at times I typed up what I believed was correct but probably wasn't.
The death certificates of my gggrandparents stated they were buried in a particular cemetery on particular days. The office staff of that particular cemetery told me on three occasions that there were no records of anyone with their surname in their records........yes you've guessed...someone had written their surname as it sounds not as it is spelt. Eventually I had contact with a wonderful member of staff who rose to the challenge and searched all the burial orders on the days they were interred and at long last, success ;D.
Cheers
Cando
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Well they corrected the entry on their database :)
Yes, it took a bit of doing but eventually we got it right.
Most of the problems with the 'fixing' came about because of staff changes.
When I sent the copy of the DC I got a 'why have we got this?" from them!
Had to send them copies of emails from a departed staff member!
He's the only one of that family that I've found at Rookwood. I think most of the others are in what used to be Northern Suburbs Cemetery.
;D ;D ;D
Dawn M
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Hi there,
Perhaps we need to check the burial register entries near to
John MURPHY
DD 10 August 1883
Old Catholic Mortuary 1
His plot is noted on my resource as “Iron rail surround”
Secton C Row 8 Plot # 205
I mentioned his funeral on the other thread.
ADD
Also from funerals of 12 August 1883 mentioned on the other thread
Old Catholic Mortuary 1
Plot Section 3
Plot # 4
Size 1
For
Ann(e) MADDEN
8 August 1881, aged 79
And
Patrick MADDEN
10 August 1883, aged 84
Cheers, JM
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Hi
I have just returned from a visit to Rookwood. At the Catholic office the girls were very helpful After showing them the Death/Funeral notices for Jane NAPTHALI / NAPTHLIA and the info from the Grave Search Site they checked the old original register and it only recorded David Silva in grave 66, section 6 of Mortuary 1. As they could not give me an exact location of the grave 66 I was given a map and a print out of every person buried from grave 40 to 70 in case there were headstones that would lead me to the exact location.
The girls said that when they had some spare time they would check back through the records to see if they could find where Jane was buried,(I think it was a bit of a mystery that they would like to solve) and would give me a ring with the result. So I left them with all the info from the Notices dates etc and go to Section 6 and take photos of the area. It is a large mowed grassed area with a scattering of headstone.
When I returned home there was a message on the machine saying that they had found Jane or James in Mortuary 1 Area C grave 466. As the writing was copperplate it could be read as James or Jane. My guess is that we have found Jane, so when I next visit the Cemetery I will visit the office, try and obtain a location map of grave 466 and take some photos. Might not be for a couple of weeks,
Cass
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Sterling effort Cass
Many thanks
JM
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May I note that the Catholic cemeteries website is already actively updating their online index to better reflect their original register.
http://search.catholiccemeteries.org.au/
Cheers, JM
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And a big thank you from me as well ;D :-*
I have checked all the 1883 Jane MI's at Rookwood and there is nothing for Jane NAPTHALI in that year so no headstone.
Cass I think there should be a Row number for the location ie Catholic Mortuary 1 Section 6 Row ** Grave#466
Ah...Adjoining burial sites to James NAPTHLIA - from the website
This should help :)
Catholic Old Mortuary 1 Section C Row 18 Grave#467
Andrew HALPIN
5 Aug 1883
30 years
Should be easy to locate if the headstone is still there as the MI's were transcribed between 1981 and 1992.
Cheers
Cando
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As a point, Jane Napthali's (Nee Batwell) husband was James Napthali.
He died in 1885 reg no: 3084. (Leichardt). Searches so far have not turned up where he is buried. I have ordered a transcript of his death certificate in the hope it may turn up something,
Bart
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Cando
The lass did not mention the row number, but glad you found it. I don't think the Cemetery records rows only grave numbers, next question how do the row numbers run. I see from the Rookwood disk that the Haplin grave appears to be on the end of a row, so it should not take much trouble to find the grave. From Google Earth Section C looks to be small with only about 30 rows of graves.
Cass
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As a point, Jane Napthali's (Nee Batwell) husband was James Napthali.
He died in 1885 reg no: 3084. (Leichardt). Searches so far have not turned up where he is buried. I have ordered a transcript of his death certificate in the hope it may turn up something,
James is at Rookwood Anglican:
NAPHALI James K/A 24-06-1885
Area: AN
Section: N
Number:0000576
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/index.php/search-online
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Adjoining burial sites to James NAPTHLIA - from the website
Catholic Old Mortuary 1 Section C Row 18 Grave#467
Andrew HALPIN
5 Aug 1883
30 years
Hi Everyone,
My OH followed up on Andrew, any sudden death ought to be subject to an Inquest.
Andrew's inquest was held 18 August, in Sydney with H Shiell presiding. Andrew’s death noted on the index as 7 August. He was aged 30, born United States. He died at Waterloo. The verdict sadly shows he took his own life.
:) But the admin details also show that there were delays between when the death occurred and when the coroner was able to schedule the formal inquest.
:) Oh says that I should also mention that the City Coroner was not hearing these cases in a formal court room, but on location.
:) So for example, a death at PA Hospital, the inquest was noted as held at Camperdown; a death at Sydney Hospital was noted as held Sydney; a death onboard a Schooner was noted as held Sydney; a death at Forest Lodge, inquest held Forest Lodge; a death at Darling Harbour, …. Inquest at Sydney; death Millers Point, inquest Sydney:
:) So my OH went through the index (almost chronological order ) from June to Oct 1883, none found that could be for Jane.
This suggests to both of us at least, that perhaps she had been attended to by a Medico and that he was able to certify her death without the need for an inquest. The burial register at Rookwood may be the only 'official' record available.
Cheers, JM