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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: NJ Holmes on Friday 08 November 13 00:16 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I have traced my family tree back to the SIMPSON family in Melbourne, Australia, but I would like to know where they came from before that. This gentleman is my great-great grandfather:
William Harry SIMPSON
Born: About 1848, Melbourne, VIC
Married: 6 Jul 1874, Christchurch, New Zealand to Harriett Ann TALLOTT
Died: 26 Oct 1902, View Hill, Oxford, Canterbury, New Zealand
He was a jockey and rode in the first ever Melbourne Cup in 1861, coming second on a horse called Mormon. He was known as Billy or Bill Simpson in the articles I read, none of which referred to his family, frustratingly.
The only other information I have is from his engagement notice in a Christchurch newspaper, which referred to him as the son of W.A. Simpson, Melbourne.
His children, all born in NZ:
Walter Herbert
Miriam Louisa
Annie Harriet
Lydia Alice
Eliza Jane
Harry Andrew
Ada Ellen (my great-grandmother)
Olive Edith Mary
Gertrude Eva Emily
Charles Edward
Effie Mary
I found a Baptism in Melbourne from Jan 1849, for William SIMPSON (no Harry), but the parents were John and Jane, which doesn't correspond to the newspaper article re his engagement.
Any assistance appreciated.
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Are you sure that he was the jockey SIMPSON? There are quite a lot of articles and obits about the celebrated jockey W. H. (Billy) SIMPSON, but he was from South Australia and died there in 1873 aged 32.
Debra :)
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I agree with Debra. Also if your fella was born around 1848 he would have only been 13 when riding in the Melbourne cup in 1861.
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Hi DadLoco,
I am not overly familiar with NZ BDMs but I believe the birth certificates of William's children should record his birthplace and his death certificate should also name his parents and state how long he had been in NZ if this was known to the informant. Do you have either of these documents?
Debra :)
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Hi all
Thanks for your replies. I did not know that 'the' jockey W H Simpson had died in Australia in 1873. I guess this means he's not my W H Simpson. Although mine was a jockey.
I do have documents for him, but they do not record his parents' names, which is why I only quoted the newspaper notice for his engagement. This is the only source I have for his father being W A Simpson. This is what I have:
Marriage certificate for William Harry SIMPSON and Harriett Ann TALLOTT
Date: 6 Jul 1874
Groom's age: 25
Groom's occupation: Jockey
(Note: At this point, NZ marriage certificates did not record names of parents)
Birth certificate for Ada/Aida Ellen SIMPSON
Date: 17 Aug 1884
Father: William Harry SIMPSON
Occupation: Bushman
Age: 37
Birthplace: Victoria
Death certificate for William Harry SIMPSON
Date: 26 Oct 1902
Age: 54
Parents: Unknown
Birthplace: Melbourne, Victoria
How long in New Zealand: 38 years
Informant: Walter Herbert SIMPSON, son of deceased
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Hi DadLoco, The only William SIMPSON that may be your man that I can see on my records is this one -
SIMPSON William - Father John - Mother Jane - Male - Birth Place Melbourne year 1849 - reg No 26268 Church of England Parish St Peters Melbourne finche 383
Good luck
Cherokee ;) ;)
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Hi there,
Have you considered asking the good folk over on the NZ Board for some help ... perhaps a look up for an Intention to Marry record for your jockey ? I wonder if parents names or clues may be on the ITM... ... I do know that the ecclesiastical laws most likely required the clergy to record the names of the parents, so perhaps you could enquire of the Church Archivist as I would expect the denomination to be mentioned on the mc. (according to the rites of .......) However, I am not sure if ITMs go back to the 1870s, but I know the NZ RChatters are absolutely fantastic at helping on RChat threads. They have helped me with my NZ enquiries.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=299.0
Cheers, JM
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Forgot to mention ::) Sorry...
1849, Vic was still part of NSW so there could be baptismal records on NSW BDM for your Chap.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
Cheers, JM
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NZ-based William Harry appears to be simply "Harry" in some records, for example in this memorial for son Harry Andrew:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=TS19010604.2.24
Using middle names seems to be a thing with this family - there are some mentions in papers past of a "Bert Simpson" in the Boer War from the View Hill area who I think may be eldest son Walter Herbert. His military records are on Archway (next of kin - Harry Simpson).
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Thanks majm,
I applied and got a baptism cert for William H Simpson b. 1849 from the NSW site, but it appears to be the wrong one, a William Henry Simpson, parents William and Susannah.
I will try your other suggestion for the ITM lookup. Thanking you all again :)
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Hi there,
NSW BDM Early Church Records includes four baptisms for William SIMPSON, son of William that may (and may not) refer to your chap. Not everyone was baptised, not all baptisms were for infants, not all baptisms were conducted at the same location as the birth place, and not all baptisms are included in the Early Church Records held by NSW BDM.
I can see FOUR possibles at NSW BDM online index:
1848 line 265, Vol 50, William, parents as William and Elizabeth
1848 Line 1466, Vol 145, William, parents as William and Rosanna
1849, line 1907, Vol 55, Wiliam, parents as William and Eliza
1849, line 1619 Vol 34A, William H, parents as William and Susannah (I assume this is the one you ordered, not sure why you consider this as appearing to be the wrong one)
I do think the ITM lookup request may help you further.
Then again, perhaps a request of the Church were the marriage took place? May be they can advise you where the Church register would be located, and if there is additional information on the register that is not on the NZ BDM issued marriage cert. I know that the NZ BDM print out is not just cheaper than the NZ BDM certificate, but often has a greater depth of detail recorded on it.
Re the NSW BDM online index does not give the district for these Early Baptismal Records, so there is no telling if any of the four certs I have noted above were for baptisms celebrated in the districts that became the colony of Victoria. But, the index itself does NOT date from the year of the event, in fact it dates from volunteers transcribing the records in the 1930s, so it may well be your chap’s possible baptism is one of the above.
At the FamilySearch website, in the Historical Recrods section, here’s two, there may well be others :
William Henry SIMPSON born 11 Feb 1849, Baptised 11 March 1849, at Gunning NSW parents as William and Susannah SIMPSON https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC2-5RX Gunning is of course located on the route to Victoria that was part of the overland way to Victoria in the 1840s (Hume Highway)
William SIMPSON, baptised 11 Feb 1849, AT Portland Head and Pitt Town, parents as William and Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTDF-F8Q (Hawkesbury district, north west of Sydney)
https://familysearch.org/search
Cheers, JM
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Thanks again JM
I consider the one I ordered to be incorrect because he has the wrong middle name. He is William Henry where mine is William Harry.
According to the marriage cert, they were not married in a church but at a private residence. The certificate names the officiating minister (Charles Fraser), but does not contain a denomination! I will see what comes of the ITM lookup.
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Harry is a recognised "pet" name for Henry :)
The Church register used by the Rev conducting the ceremony would have been taken to the private residence for signing by the parties and witnessed too, and then returned to the Church building for safe keeping. (Add, perhaps to a Manse, or to where-ever the clergyman was residing. It was his responsibility to give it safe keeping according to the laws of his denomination). There was and still is NO requirement for a marriage ceremony to be conducted within the formal Church Building. Many ceremonies in the various antipodean colonies were not held within Church Buildings, but are recorded in Church Registers.
Cheers, JM
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Harry is a recognised "pet" name for Henry
I know this, but it doesn't prove anything.
The Church register used by the Rev conducting the ceremony would have been taken to the private residence for signing by the parties and witnessed too, and then returned to the Church building for safe keeping. (Add, perhaps to a Manse, or to where-ever the clergyman was residing. It was his responsibility to give it safe keeping according to the laws of his denomination). There was and still is NO requirement for a marriage ceremony to be conducted within the formal Church Building.
I know all of this too. The point is, the denomination is not listed, so I don't know which Church building it was or may have been returned to.
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In case you are not already aware,
There’s a Rev Charles FRASER marrying Margaret A BLYTH noted in the West Coast Times of 14 May 1883. They were married at St Andrew’s Manse, Christchurch, by the Rev T R CAIRNS,.
I wonder if that would be indicating that Rev Charles Fraser was perhaps an ordained Presbyterian Minister.
NZ papers past is a great place to search
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
There’s also an RChat thread giving The Manse address: Tuam Street Christchurch
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=440374.0
Cheers, JM
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Hi DadLoco,
I am not overly familiar with NZ BDMs but I believe the birth certificates of William's children should record his birthplace and his death certificate should also name his parents and state how long he had been in NZ if this was known to the informant. Do you have either of these documents?
Debra :)
This is what I have:
Marriage certificate for William Harry SIMPSON and Harriett Ann TALLOTT
Date: 6 Jul 1874
Groom's age: 25
Groom's occupation: Jockey
(Note: At this point, NZ marriage certificates did not record names of parents)
Birth certificate for Ada/Aida Ellen SIMPSON
Date: 17 Aug 1884
Father: William Harry SIMPSON
Occupation: Bushman
Age: 37
Birthplace: Victoria
Death certificate for William Harry SIMPSON
Date: 26 Oct 1902
Age: 54
Parents: Unknown
Birthplace: Melbourne, Victoria
How long in New Zealand: 38 years
Informant: Walter Herbert SIMPSON, son of deceased
May I mention the discussion Harry v Henry and add that there's also the matter of TALLET v TALLOTT :) and so may I suggest that the follow index entries may well be of interest as these are from the NZ BDM online index
The surname is of course SIMPSON
1875 Walter Herbert (with parents as Harriet Ann and William H)
1876 Miriam Louisa (Harriet and William Harry)
1877 Annie Harriet (Harriet Ann and William Harry)
1879 Lydia Alice (Harriet Ann and William Harry)
1881 Eliza Jane (Harriet Ann and William Harry
1882 Harry Andrew (Harriett Ann and William Harry
1884 Aida Ellen (Harriette Ann and William Henry)
1887 Olive Edith Mary (Harriett Ann and William Henry)
1890 Gertrude Eva (Harriet Anne and William Harry)
1893 Charles Edward (Harriet Ann and William Harry)
1895 Effie (Harriet Ann and William Harry)
Also, here's the link for the ITM enquiry over on the NZ board, (the moderator over there will look up the ITM for DadLoco)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=668655.0
Cheers, JM
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There only four Wm SIMPSON baptisms and one birth registration to 1853 in Victoria. Two in 1842, the one cited in 1849 and another in 1853. It is not unusual for the second given name not to be on either the baptism record or birth registration.
The documents you have give his birth a c1847, c1848 and c1849 and there are no baptism for these years other than the one you mention in 1849.
Marriage
SIMPSON John
NEILL Jane
1847 Reg#3937
Denomination Independent Congregational, Parish Melbourne Fiche#905
Baptism
SIMPSON William
Father John Mother Jane
At Melbourne 1849 Reg#2628
Denomination Church of England Parish St Peters Melbourne Fiche#383
Wm SIMPSON born c1847 son of John SIMPSON and Jane NEILL died at Bendigo in 1915. So doubt that this is the baptism of your Wm Harry/Henry. His younger brother John was baptised the same year. John and Jane NEILL had a large family and there are many references to them on TROVE.
Cando
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I should have added. You are seeking records before the introduction of civil registration in Victoria. IF he was baptised it is possible the parish records were not handed to the Registry for transcription to their records.
Cando
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Excuse me for butting in, but. William Henry/Harry Simpson/Simson went to NZ at age 15. How did he get there and who paid his way. What happened to his parents, did they go with him, or did they die in Victoria, if Victoria at all. William may have only gone off his closest recollections and may not ACTUALLY know his birthdate or where born. He would not have been carrying his BC with him.
Born 1849 in Victoria, pre goldrush? Must have been a lot smaller then, parents may possibly be one or both at one time guests of the Crown :o Possibly even ex Tasmania?
Maybe worth a look at some variants.
Neil
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Thank you all for your inputs
For the Harry/Henry debate: My great-grandmother Ada/Aida Ellen's death certificate does record her father's name as Henry SIMPSON (No mention of William). Mentions in Papers Past suggest he was known as Harry. So there may be something to this although it does make him more difficult to identify, given this now widens the list of suspects!
The Baptism certificate I ordered contained these details:
CHILD
Christian Name: William Henry
When born: 11 February 1849
Date of ceremony: 11 March 1849
Where ceremony performed: Parish of Gunning, County of King
Where registered: Not stated
PARENTS
Father: William SIMPSON
Mother: Susannah SIMPSON
Abode: Gunning
Quality or profession: Shoemaker
Sponsors: Not stated
By whom the ceremony was performed: Robt. Cartwright, Chaplain, Church of England
According to Google Maps, Gunning is near Canberrra and actually closer to Sydney than Melbourne. Not really sure if this is him either :(
Neil, you are not butting in at all. In answer to one of your questions, I don't believe his parents came with him as the engagement notice in the newspaper said he was the son of W.A. SIMPSON of Melbourne. I don't have the text of the notice handy but will post it later when I get home.
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Well one of the five children "DAVID S SIMPSON 5613/1858" born to William and Susannah was born Braidwood NSW so they stayed in this "Monaro" area for some. There was a Goldrush at or near the Braidwood area throughout the late 1850's and into the 1860's. Gunning parish may well have extended to Braidwood so they may have been in that general area for some time.
Araluen a really beautiful Valley just south of Braidwood was where most of the action was, however Captains Flat also featured.
Whoops add another 3 children to William and SUSANNA/SUSANNAH also one noted at Braidwood 1860
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au
MODIFIED TO ADD; http://www.gundaroo.info/genealogy/genealog.htm Lots on here. ;D
My opinion was that they may have done well in that area. Monaro Pioneers Index has William Henry SIMPSON of YASS NSW still in the Monaro Region.
Neil
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Argh... That family above is definatly not your William Henry Simpson born 1849. He marrried Sarah Ann WILSON at Araluen in 1872 and had ten children there. :o Some still in area now.
so BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD. >:(
Neil
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Hi there,
Cando has mentioned that we are discussing pre civil registrations, and I mentioned we are discussing pre separation of the colony of Victoria from the NSW.
The movement of emancipated convicts from VDL to Melbourne is also a significant factor to consider, and of course Civil Registrations for BDM events commenced in VDL before just about anywhere else in Australia, so their records were based on English requirements and are therefore quite scant, whereas VIC and NSW legislation on civil registrations is more akin to Scottish requirements and therefore BDM records are quite detailed. The family history dilemma is when the official records are not civil registrations, and (in the case of NSW BDM) they are based on transmitted Early Church Records, so the usual family history clues in these registers are often obscure or simply not recorded.
May I stress that it is entirely possible that Billy/Harry (William Harry/ William Henry) Simpson was born in Melbourne, but as there was NO civil registration system in existence, so unless he was baptised by a clergyman who recorded the ceremony in his register, and unless that register has been shared with either (or both) the NSW BDM and the VIC BDM then it may not ever be possible to find the birth record that DadLoco is seeking.
May I also stress that while Billy/Harry believed he was born in Melbourne, he may have been recalling that is where his first memories place him as a child, or as an adult perhaps he was answering a question “what native place for thy father” rather than “what native place for thyself” when registering births of his own children. Afterall, that now archaic form of “your” was still part of many religious services until perhaps the 1970s.
DadLoco, do you have any details about your Ada/Aida Ellen’s UNCLES or AUNTS ….. perhaps by looking for likely siblings for her Dad, we may find the names of HIS parents, which afterall is the fundamental quest at present. For example, perhaps Ada kept a birthday book, or a Christmas Card List, or a diary, or a family Bible, or simply letters from her aunts or uncles or first cousins.
Cheers, JM
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Hehe.... re questions about Uncles & Aunts, I'm afraid I have no knowledge.
Aida/Ada was my grandfather's mother. My grandfather married a Roman Catholic (of Irish descent) and converted, and it is rumoured that he was disinherited for doing so. All of this took place in NZ, although Aida/Ada's husband Thomas HOLMES was also of Irish descent, and I do know that they were fierce Protestants (Thomas's brother Joseph wore an Orangeman's sash).
Whatever really happened, my father told me he knew nothing about his father's family. When I started on this journey 17 years ago, and obtained birth and death certificates for my grandfather, I told my Dad his grandmother's name was Ada. He said "If you'd asked me before now what her name was, I would have said Nanny."
I have asked my Aunts about this also, but no one knows much about the family. I know they did have contact with their grandparents (perhaps this refutes the 'disinherited' rumour), and I know they did attend Aida/Ada's funeral in 1970. My grandfather was rather remote, so it seems he didn't share any knowledge he may have had himself.
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Hi DadLoCo,
Do you have a copy of the newspaper wedding/engagement notice? It doesn't seem to be included on Papers Past. This person here has William as the son of "W.A. SIMPSON and N.N."
http://holmes.org.nz/family.php?database=humo1_&id=F0020&main_person=I0046
I was wondering if the "N.N" came from the newspaper notice as well?
Debra :)
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1848 Line 1466, Vol 145, William, parents as William and Rosanna
JM
Perhaps Wm Harry/Henry was raised in Melbourne.
SIMPSON Sarah Anne
Father William Mother Rosannah
Born Melbourne 1852 Reg#17785
Denomination Church of England Parish St James, Melbourne Fiche#300
Cando
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Hi Debra
The site link you posted is from my website :)
The "N.N." is an anomaly from the software I used. I imagine it stands for "No Name" as I don't have any entry in the "mother" field.
I have a copy of the newspaper notice at home; I'll post the details here later on today.
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Ah, see that is how rumours are started! ;D
Debra :)
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Well spotted Cando :)
and Rumours ..... Dundee does not start rumours :) deary me ;D
I am not much chop with VIC searchings, but I wonder if I am off on a side track fetching a William SIMPSON and his daughter/s to Sydney in Oct 1848, on same voyage as fetched them from Scotland to Port Phillip ::)
From the NZ BDM online index I see that Ada’s second given name was ELLEN. And that Eliza’s second given name was JANE.
From the Geelong Advertiser 30 Sept 1848 Passengers into Port Melbourne on the Glen Huntley from Greenock 26th May ….. Mr William SIMPSON, Miss Ellen SIMPSON.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/93132939
From The Argus 29 Sept 1848
Passengers on the Glen Huntley from Glasgow
Misses Jane and Ellen SIMPSON
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4771775
From the Geelong Advertiser 10 Oct 1848
Cleared out of Port Melbourne for SYDNEY (Sailed Oct 8th)
The Glen Huntly, with Mr J Simpson, Miss Ellen Simpson
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/93135344
From the Sydney Morning Herald 5 Oct 1848
Port Phillip Glen Huntley
Mr W Simpson and daughter
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28648263
SMH 16 Oct 1848
Oct 14, Glen Huntley, ship, from Port Phillip
Mr Simon Simpson, Miss Simpson
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12902792
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1848/10/scan.asp?filename=017gle.gif
Now, if you have stacks and stacks of patience and even more spare hours/days you could always try the older Australian newspaper website where there’s pdfs that are NOT keyword searchable. These newspapers cover much of the 1840s Fingers crossed that they can help you to determine if it was William or Simon who came with daughter/s Jane and/or Ellen to Melbourne and onto Sydney. And then consider if that William may have been the father/grandfather of your own William, who had daughters with middle names of Ellen and of Jane
http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/
For Victoria :
Geelong advertiser
Geelong advertiser and squatters advocate
The Melbourne courier
Melbourne times
The Melbourne weekly courier
The Port Phillip magazine
Cheers, JM
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1848 Line 1466, Vol 145, William, parents as William and Rosanna
JM
Perhaps Wm Harry/Henry was raised in Melbourne.
SIMPSON Sarah Anne
Father William Mother Rosannah
Born Melbourne 1852 Reg#17785
Denomination Church of England Parish St James, Melbourne Fiche#300
Cando
Well, errr, something a little odd, remembering that NSW BDM can have flaws in the index due in part to the decades between when the event was originally recorded and when the index was first prepared.
Vol 145 is not a volume that can be easily sorted out, BUT ......... Vol 66 can be ;D and so I note that likely a transmitted record from vol 66 to vol 145 and just two lines different in Vol 145 :
1848 Line 1457, vol 66, Rebecca SIMPSON, parents as William and Rosanna
1848 Line 1468 Vol 145, Rebecca SIMPSON, parents as William and Rosanna
Vol 66 is for Roman Catholic Baptisms
Vols. 1- 44 Church of England
Vols. 45- 72 Baptisms - All other denominations
Roman Catholic 1840-1855 Vols. 61-72 Reels 5021-5027
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/short-guide-4
Various Public Libraries and Genie Societies have copies of those NSW SRO reels :)
So it seems possible that Rosanna and William were baptising their children at either C of E or RC so perhaps they were a mixed marriage too :)
Cheers, JM
PS (This was part of my post, but seems to have gone wandering off to a cybercemetery somewheres)
And there's that other question of course
WHAT details are recorded at line 1467 of Vol 145 ;D
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Ok, as promised, the only source I have for any details of William Harry's parents.
The following was in the marriage notices in the Lyttleton Times (1851-1880):
SIMPSON-TALLET.
On July 6, Residence of Rev C. Fraser.
To William Harry, eldest son of late W.A. Simpson of Melbourne to Harriet Ann, eldest daughter of Thomas and Marion Tallet of Cust, New Zealand.
(Melbourne papers only).
A couple of mistakes to note: The bride's surname is spelled TALLOTT and her mother's first name was actually Miriam.
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SIMPSON-TALLET.
On July 6, Residence of Rev C. Fraser.
To William Harry, eldest son of late W.A. Simpson of Melbourne to Harriet Ann, eldest daughter of Thomas and Marion Tallet of Cust, New Zealand.
(Melbourne papers only).
A couple of mistakes to note: The bride's surname is spelled TALLOTT and her mother's first name was actually Miriam.
Hi
What a shame that while the bride’s mother and father are named, that the groom’s mother’s name is not in that transcription.
May I confirm that the NZ BDM online index has the marriage listed as 1874/11329 Harriet Ann TALLET and William Harry SIMPSON and by elimination the date as 6 July 1874.
Would you please type up all the details on your copy of that cert. Often the smallest snippet can help.
Also, have you previously searched for the death of W A Simpson? If In Victoria after the commencement of civil registrations, then it is likely that the dc may include the names of his then living children, who would hopefully include your elusive chap.
Here is a link re what to expect on Vic certs. Of course, with death certs, it is always important to remember the informant’s own knowledge about the deceased can be less reliable as if a family member it is given at a time of grief.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
ADD
Speculations but have you considered that the newspaper report may be based on handwritten note made by reporter? This may account for the apparent spelling error in the Bride's surname. If so, that poor handwriting brings into question the "W A" initials for your chap's Dad's given names.... :-\
Cheers, JM
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Very little info on the marriage cert, unfortunately. Looks like this (handwritten entries in Italics):
COPY OF REGISTER OF MARRIAGE
Marriages in the District of Christchurch.
No.
1029
WHEN MARRIED, AND WHERE.
1874
6th July
at The Manse
NAMES AND SURNAMES.
William Harry Simpson
Harriet Ann Tallot Tallet
AGE.
25
22
RANK OR PROFESSION.
Jockey
Dom. Servant
CONDITION.
Bachelor
Spinster
NAME OF OFFICIATING MINISTER (OR REGISTRAR).
Charles Fraser
WHEN REGISTERED.
6th July
Married, after delivery to me of the Certificate required by the Act of the General Assembly of New Zealand, intituled "The Marriage Act, 1854" by Charles Fraser Officiating Minister (or Registrar).
This marriage was solemnized between us,
William Harry Simpson
Harriet Ann Tallot
In the presence of us,
Isabella McColl, Manse, Spinster.
Elisabeth Farquhar, Manse.
I certify that the above is a true Copy of the Entry in the Register Book of Marriages kept by Charles Fraser Officiating Minister (or Registrar).
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Hi,
Does the cert record the actual signatures of the bride, the groom, the witnesses, or is it the Rev's handwriting throughout the document? ..... I would not be expecting a Jockey aged 25 in 1874 to have received a great deal of formal education if his school years (the mid 1850s to mid 1860s) were spent with parents moving from gold rush to gold rush etc.
Cheers, JM
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I agree with your assessment in regards to education. The handwriting is the same throughout the document, with the exception of the correction of the Bride's surname (denoted by the strikethrough).
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Hi there,
Long post ::)
I am not as familiar with NZ searchings, as say with NSW searchings.
I have a fair understanding of the admin side of the NSW marriage registrations in the 19thC (Church and Civil aspects). NZ admin was hived off from NSW admin 1840, and its BDM admin system may have similiarities with NSW.
If so, then until the civil regulations sorted themselves out from around say 1875ish, the civil registration is not as detailed as it could be. One issue in NSW was about who could handle the civil registrations of marriages, as there is often SCANT info on the actual Civil registration held by BDM register. (for example a huge debate over if a clerk was permitted to read, register, etc the details about a marriage IF that clerk was not of that denomination .... part of that debate that raged for DECADES in NSW 1850s to 1890s).
I particularly mention these things, because, in my view, where the clergy have completed the signatures sections, it is likely that that particular record is simply a SUMMARY of the actual parish register that the clergy retained in their safe keeping, and the clergy forwarded only the brief details.
Long before fh was as popular as it currently is, (so long before the internet), I was hunting out original registers to follow up on family history research conducted in the 1930s by one of my grandparents who HAD located original registers and had therefore found the FULL details about the parents and the bride and groom that had been given to the clergyman when attending the interviews PRIOR to the marriage. (In NSW it seems it was all denominations who recorded the full details, but simply did not provide all the info to the civil registers). I had the "bride's copy" of the clergy issued mc, I had the NSW BDM issued mc, and I had my grandparent's transcription of the actual parish register. Only on the parish register was I able to find the names of the parents of the bride and groom. Sometimes I needed to find FIVE different registers to obtain ALL the info given to the clergyman. :) (One of which is akin to the ITM records archived in NZ)
I am very familiar with how to find the elusive details about the parents of the bride and the groom where the marriage was celebrated in NSW in those years. Simply put, you get to the Church register. (Often now these are in safe custody of the various denominations 'head offices', back in the 1960s and 1970s they were up the back shelves of cupboards in Manses, or as door stops or footrests etc).
I see no reason for the NZ Presbyterian registers to have LESS info on them that say on the NSW Presbyterian registers in that same time. There are some exceptions, as unfortunately for fh buffs, there were several "marriage shops" in Sydney at one time, and those clergy were quite scant in the details they noted.
In the 1870s, NSW Presbyterian registers for marriages include
:) the bride's parents names (including Mum's maiden name and any former names) and Dad's occupation at that time; the bride's age, place of birth, occupation, usual address.
:) the groom's parents names (including Mum's maiden name, and any former names) Dad's occupation at that time; the groom's age, place of birth, occupation, usual address.
:) if EITHER bride or groom is not yet 21 years of age, then the name of the person, and their relationship to the bride or the groom, thereby giving consent to the marriage.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks JM
Your explanation actually makes a lot of sense. I always thought it was strange that the handwriting was the same for the couple's names as everywhere else on the document, and yet there was no indication of any signature by the couple to corroborate things, not even a "his mark" or "her mark". Given your findings that these are what would seem to be abbreviated copies of the actual register, this would seem like the next place to look.
Thank you again
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I may be wrong as usual, ::) But NZ also has a transcribed record available which is supposed to contain ALL the relevant details, IE more than the official certificate. Also cheaper I am led to believe?
Neil
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Umm referred to as a PRINT OUT.
See:"The new website can also be accessed from the Department of Internal Affairs website at www.dia.govt.nz
To use the site, people enter a family name and a 'search from date' or a registration number into the search box.
They can then order a certificate or a print out from a list of search results and pay by credit card.
The historic data available is limited so that information relating to people who might still be alive can be protected."
Neil
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I think the PRINT OUT option is same price as the real deal cert ($26.50) for the civil records to 31 Dec 1874 .... so if the couple had waited five more months to marry, then the print out option offered by NZ BDM may well have the info already :)
Cheers, JM
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Argh.....$20.40 NZ Dollars... I was told reliably of course that they often contain all the information from the registers instead of what is on the real deal cert's. I don't think that is an Ironclad guarantee though. ::)
Neil
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I was advised from someone on the NZ board a few years ago to always order print outs of certificates from New Zealand. Just my two bob's worth. ;D
Cando
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Hi all
I was advised the same thing, although I think the term "print out" is very misleading.
To me, print out implies a transcript, which it is not.
If you order a certificate, this is an official document (that can be used for obtaining passports etc), but is really only the information transcribed onto an official looking piece of paper by whomever is interpreting the handwriting.
If you order a print out, you get a photocopy of the certificate or register on file. The photocopy is what I have in this case and is of very little informational value. I am loath to order an actual certificate as I very much doubt there will be anything more on it.
Nik
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Re NZ BDM products currently available to order online :)
JM can be pedantic, but in this instance I think being pedantic may help ;D
If the marriage had taken place AFTER 1 Jan 1875, then the print out should contain more info than the legal certificate. Until 1 Jan 1875 the same info is on both.
"Printout - post 1874 20.40 A copy of the information from the registration, and usually used for research purposes, it is either handwritten or typed
Printout - pre 1875 26.50 A copy of the information from the registration, and usually used for research purposes. It is either handwritten or typed
Standard Certificate 26.50 Legal official document
Decorative Certificate 26.50 Legal official document"
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/PaymentsAndProducts/
Cheers, from Pedantic JM :-X ::)
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Ummm
I seem to have lost a post. (Shhhhhh, I am using my workdesk for work and for fh ..... so perhaps I have overstepped myself ;D )
Earlier this morning I used the PROV index for outward passage
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=42
Found SIMPSON on the Thomas and Henry to Otago, Feb 1857. Found Trove mentions etc. found cargo, but no Trove listings of the passengers.
Cannot find my post NOW :-[ probably because I am rushing to get my work finished :-X
Mr T Simpson, 35, Mrs Simpson 30, 3 sons, 6, 9, 12. I am wondering about the 9 year old .... perhaps he was Harry ?
Cheers, JM