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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: redquirrel on Saturday 19 October 13 15:32 BST (UK)
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Hi, i am just starting out investigating family of mine in Antrim and i would very much appreciate some help to get going.
The only record i have is a marriage certificate between William Campbell and Ann McFall 14 March 1884. They were both registered as living in Clintyfinnan, Parish of Loughguile. William's father is also William, and Ann McFall's father is recorded as Robert John McFall.
William and Ann later moved to Haggs, Stirlingshire. They are on the 1911 census there along with adopted daughter Ann Kelly.
If anyone can help with providing more information or advice, i would really appreciate it. I hope to visit PRONI at some point next year.
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More information please :)
When would William and Ann have been born? even rough estimates from census records will help.
McFall is a very common North Antrim surname so it might be difficult to find the correct details (Campbell is also not uncommon here).
What were the names of the witnesses in 1884? often relatives of bride and groom.
Also, father's occupations?
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Hi, sorry, i really don't have a lot to go on. All i can add is that both fathers were classed as labourers on the marriage cert. William Campbell was 25 when he married, and Ann McFall was 21. I don't yet know when they moved to Scotland, although they don't seem to appear on the 1901 census, but they are there on the 1911 census. At that time they are employed, William as a fireclay labourer, and Ann as a Brickworker. I also don't know how they came to adopt Ann Kelly.
On the marriage cert there are no witnesses recorded- it's a very basic document :-(
many thanks
w
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Sounds as though you don't have the full marriage certificate?
Could this be William & Ann in Scotland earlier than 1911?
1891- 6 West Bank, New Monkland, Lanarkshire
William Campbell, 30, Ireland, brick labouer
wife Ann Campbell, 27, Ireland
daughter Margaret Ann Campbell, 3, Ireland
1901- Hurlls Square Glenboy?, Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
William Campbell, 40, Ireland, general labourer
wife Annie Campbell, 37, Ireland
daughter Margaret Ann Campbell, 13, Ireland
visitor Elizabeth Kelly, 5, Glasgow, scholar
boarder Hugh Ferguson, 50, Ireland
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Hi aghadowey, thanks so much. I think you are right- this certainly seems to be them!By finding out this much, does it lead us to other information in Antrim?
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Given that you say the couple came from Co. Antrim, the most probable birth for Margaret Ann Campbell was registered in Ballymoney Jan – Mar 1888 Vol 1, page 145. You might want to order that to see whether it’s the right one and where the family were living at that time.
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Not yet but think we are getting there. Note that daughter Margaret Ann was born in Ireland c1888- is she with the parents in 1911? if not could she have married in Scotland? Her details might lead to Irish information.
I did find a possible birth registration-
Margaret Ann Campbell 1888 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBZ2-8M2
How old was Ann Kelly in 1911? and where was she born? am wondering about this Elizabeth Kelly with them in 1901.
Does 1911 census say how many children Ann had/how many living?
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Thanks for your efforts. According to the 1911 census William (50yrs) and Ann (47yrs) are living in Haggs/Bonnybridge with Elizabeth Kelly aged 15 who is working as an envelope maker in an Explosives Works. She is referred to as adopted, and her place of birth is recorded as Lanark, followed by what could be ?Partic. There's writing over the top of it unfortunately. The couple have 2 young children living with them, William (4yrs) and Margaret Ann (1yr), who i have found are the illegitimate children of their daughter Margaret Ann. She married Henry Thomson in January 1911, and she is living with him by the time of the census, leaving her illegitimate children with her parents.
The census also states Ann had 2 children, 1 living- this is Margaret Ann.
Just to clarify, i was getting names mixed up- when i originally posted Ann Kelly, it was in fact Elizabeth. :-[
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'Partic' likely to be Partick (a part of Glasgow on the north bank of the Clyde)- fits with 1901 birthplace of Elizabeth being 'Glasgow.'
Does Margaret Ann's marriage certificate give date and place of birth? (wondering if it ties in with birth registration that Elwyn and I both found).
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Hi aghadowey, no there's no place of birth on the marriage cert, and i haven't actually tried to look for her death cert which may have it. I know she died after the 1930s because my uncle remembers her. But i think the record you have found must be her as her parents were married in the parish of Loughguile in the Registrar District of Ballymoney.
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The good news is that you can order the 1888 birth certificate to find the names of both parents, exact date and place of birth. The bad news is that Irish certificates aren't a bit like Scottish ones and there won't be date and place of parents marriage, etc.
The Ballymoney registration district covers a wide area and it may be that the family moved around a bit before going to Scotland. There are Valuation Revision books online (free on www.proni.gov.uk) that cover this period but you need to look up by townland and then scroll through the pages.
See here for details on Irish certificates and how to order them-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=433041.0
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Thank you so much for your help. I will get going on that right now :)
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When you get more details let us know and we'll see what else we can find.
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Hi, just a quick query. I did find a reference to a William Campbell listed as a tenant of Ellen Moore in Upper Ballycregagh (Barony of Upper Dunluce). But because i'm not sure what all the terms mean i don't know if this is my William Campbell, or how i go about finding out. (There are also no references to any McFalls either).
And in the section where it lists description of tenancy it says 'house', but others say 'Bog', and what looks like HoofsHand!!! Is that right? :-\
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William Campbell is paying an annual rent of (0.5.0) 5 shillings for a house (7b in list). The other holdings on the page are Bog, etc. but can't see anything like 'Hoofshand' (you can enlarge the page to make it easier to read).
That William Campbell is certainly in the right area but no way to tell if he's the one you are looking for. However, you can try to trace the property in the Valuation Revision Books to see approx. how long he stayed there, etc.
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
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what looks like HoofsHand!!! Is that right? :-\
That’s probably the abbreviation for “house, offices and land”. (Offices means outbuildings eg cowsheds and henhouses etc).
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Well, that makes a lot of sense now, thanks.
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Hi, i have looked through the Valuation Revisions Book and i have a few more questions. Firstly, each volume of the valuation records cover quite a number of years, and i can't see if there's a way to narrow down information to a particular year. For example, William Campbell is listed in the 1897-1913 book, though his name is scored through and replaced with another, presumably because he has moved on. Secondly, this is probably not 'my' William Campbell, because he is recorded as being in Ballycregagh as late as 1897-1913, when William and Ann are on the 1891 census in Lanarkshire, so i fear i may not be further forward, unless anyone can suggest another avenue? :)
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The changes in the revaluation records are in different coloured inks for different years, and the year is usually in the rh column of the page. So in your case the records show that William Campbell is recorded as having left plot 7 in the townland in 1897, when he was replaced by Robert Gillan. The records can sometimes be out by a year or two, as the Griffiths clerks didn't always get it exactly right.
Incidentally what that Wm Campbell had was a small house on a farm (in this case John Moore’s), so typical for an agricultural labourer or weaver.
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Thanks Elwyn, i appreciate your help. Out of interest, when 'type of tenancy' refers to Bog, does this mean the named person had the right to cut peat, or does it mean something entirely different?
Thanks.
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The term bog is normally in the section, “description of tenements” which is used to describe each property. So by listing it as bog, it will explain why the value is lower than for adjacent land, capable of growing crops etc. The possession or lease of a piece of bog doesn’t grant any automatic right to cut peat (turf). That is covered by separate rights, usually called turbery, which are often mentioned in leases but not in Griffiths. The right to cut peat doesn’t directly affect the value of the land, and so wasn’t of interest to Griffiths.
A person with a piece of bog would probably use it to graze a few sheep or cattle. It may also be used for turf cutting but, as I say, that would be specified separately elsewhere. Note that if the bog is described just as land, then normally that means the owner/lessee didn’t have a house there, and must have lived elsewhere.
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Thank you for that information. I have also located the Scottish death cert for William, which lists his father, also William, as a farm labourer. It also gives his mother's maiden name as Robertson. He died following a stroke in 1939.