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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: roy47 on Wednesday 16 October 13 04:58 BST (UK)
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I am a direct descendant of William Hardwicke who was the miller of Market Deeping in the late 1700s. I live in New Zealand, so getting first-hand information is a problem, but you could possibly help me. My great uncle, Hardwicke Holderness, did a vast amount of family history research around the Bourne – Market Deeping area in the mid-1900s, but he was never able to locate the marriage entry of his great-great grandfather. However, he suspected that William, who was born in Bourne in 1746, was apprenticed to the miller of Market Deeping around his marriage date of about 1776 and may even have married the miller’s daughter. William Hardwicke became the next miller of Market Deeping, so it may be reasonable to suppose that he took over the previous miller’s business (and daughter). You may be able to suggest how I would be able to find the name of the miller incumbent in the mid 1700s, or even the marriage bond itself. The only clue to his wife is that she was named ‘Mary’ on her tombstone in St. Guthlac's church which was, when Hardy saw it, against the east wall of the North aisle. It reads “Mary, wife of William Hardwick, died May 8th 1793 in the 40th year of her age, also two sons and a daughter who died in their infancy”.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Big mystery - Mary who?
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Here is the Market Deeping burial register, perhaps you'll find something helpful there http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=724094&iid=358752
Also marriages http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=512505&iid=243404
:)
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Thanks, but the marriage banns for William Hardwicke and Mary, the miller's daughter do not appear in the Market Deeping register, so I really need the name of the previous miller of Market Deeping
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Did you happen to notice the marriage of a miller (marriage 175) in 1778? http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=512505&iid=243415
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My family in Market Deeping had links to the millers and the Hardwickes of Market Deeping and Bourne, although more likely to have been associated than related.
The miller at that time was John Thorp (no 'e'). An inventory following his death was signed by John Thorpe (I have not been able to find out if he was related) and William Hardwicke.
His wife's (Mary Thorp) will was also signed by John Thorpe. William Hardwicke was the sole executor.
John Thorp had a son of the same name but died before his mother.
There is a gap in the history but another John Thorpe was the miller in the 1800s. The mill was called Thorpe's Mill but only the rebuilt house remains, now named Mill House. I have some recent pictures and one of the old mill from a book.
I have been away for a few days but will sort out what I have and get back to you.
Regards,
David
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Further to my previous post, I have some photographs of Hardwicke graves in Bourne but none in Market Deeping.
The attached image is of the group of graves with William Hardwicke d 1838 at the back.
One of the two in front is for Robert and Mary Hardwick of Dyke d 1780 and 1781
see:-
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=555586&iid=73009
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=555586&iid=73007
The other is for Robert and Sarah Hardwick d 1807 and 1808
The three small stones adjacent to the railings include Robert Hardwicke d 1663
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Inventory---Hardwicke--Robert--1663--------/1391333.record?pt=S
Images of the records are also available on http://www.findmypast.co.uk but need credits or a subscription
David
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Thank you - you have been very helpful. It looks like you were right on the money with John Thorp, the miller. I have transcribed the Inventory which must have been done after John's death and attached to his will. I presume that the 'J. Thorpe' who sign it was a son of the miller. William Hardwicke co-signed. I found the registration of John Thorp's burial in the January of 1767. The inventory is dated May '67 which was probably when the will was 'proved'. I still haven't managed to find the marriage certificate. William Hardwicke and Mary Thorp had four children, but only one, Mary, survived infancy. She married William Holderness of Wilsthorpe, my great-great grandfather. Their two eldest sons emigrated to New Zealand and Robert, the second son, founded the New Zealand branch of the Holderness family. Several of our family members have, or have had, the name 'Hardwicke' as either first or second names.
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The person who signed the inventory and Mary Thorp's will was my ancestor John Thorpe. He was the schoolmaster in Market Deeping.
I am not sure how, or if, he was related to the miller's family but he wasn't the son of John and Mary. According to her will, their John had died intestate.
There is a death for John Thorp in 1765 and a will of John Thorp, miller, Market Deeping, for that year also. I looked at this in the Lincolnhire Archives but didn't order a copy. He was the husband of Mary.
The next death is in 1767 for John Thorp and the inventory states that he was the son of John Thorp. He and his mother had been the executors of his father's will.
I believe that I have the marriage of John and Mary, together with the births of their first two children. None of these took place in Market Deeping but I need to go back through my records.
Rgeards,
David
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A John THORPE (brother of an ancestor of mine) said in 1851 he was born c1801 Market Deeping. At his 1850 (second) marriage he said his father was Nicholas THORPE (who was buried at Skirbeck, where John later lived).
I've never been able to link Nicholas in with the Mkt Deeping THORPEs, perhaps he was the one from Hykeham, but it's a coincidence he seems to have been to Deeping, isn't it?
:-\
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It is interesting that John gives his birthplace as Market Deeping, although I have not found any evidence of him or of a Nicholas.
I am not sure what happened to the mill after John died in 1767 and Mary in 1770. The next people I can find are, by coincidence, John and Mary Thorpe, who must have taken over the mill c1810. They were married in Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, and also had links to Fotheringhay, Northamptonshire.
All of their children were baptised in Whittlesey between 1789 and 1806.
A possible link is that a Mary Hardwick was born to William and Mary Thorpe in Whittlesey in 1779. I am presuming that Hardwick was her middle name. One of my Thorpes married a man from Whittlesey but probably a coincidence.
Needs a bit more digging.
Regards,
David
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I was looking at the register for the marriage of Elizabeth Hardwicke and William Holderness. This gives William's abode as Obthorpe, which is about a mile from Wilsthorpe, and only consited of a couple of houses at that time.
Thomas Rawnsley was a witness at Elizabeth Hardwicke's marriage and he would have been Elizabeth's uncle, who married Deborah Hardwicke, or his son.
see - http://www.queenslandfamilytrees.com/getperson.php?personID=I12836&tree=5
William Hardwick and Thomas Rawnsley are mentioned in this document, which also mentions Obthorpe - http://thurlbyvillage.wordpress.com/thurlby-grange/
I have not been able to find the marriage of William Hardwicke and Mary but I am fairly certain that I have the marriage of William's grandparents, John and Mary Thorp. I will post the details tomorrow.
Regards,
David
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I could find no records for the baptisms of the first two children of John and Mary Thorp and no marriage. So, I looked for any John and Mary who only had a John and Elizabeth at about the right time.
The only ones I found were in Long Clawson, Leicestershire - John on 14 Feb 1719 and Elizabeth on 21 Aug 1722.
Then I found a marriage in the adjoining village of Hose - John Thorp & Mary Rouse 13 Apr 1719.
It was difficult to be certain until I found another marriage in Hose:-
John Molecey, p. Market Deeping, Co. Linc., & Eleanor Rowse, lic. 21 June 1756
Both can be found on - http://leicestershireparishrecords.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/phillimores-marriages-hose-1688-to-1837.html
John Molecey was the miller at West Deeping, about a mile from Thorpe's mill. I suspect that Mary Rouse and Eleanor Rowse were related and the introduction was made by John and Mary Thorp.
Eleanor Simpson Twigge Molecey, of Molecey Mill, married John Thorpe of Market Deeping Mill in Q4 1875.
I have also found a newspaper cutting from the Northamton Mercury in 1789 about the Sack Association, which includes the following members:-
John Thorpe of Whittlesey
William Hardwick of Deeping
John Molecey of Deeping
Given that Mary Thorp named four living Thorp children in her will and no record can be found of them in Market Deeping, they must have been living elsewhere. I suspect that the Thorpes of Whittlesey are descended from John and Mary but have not been able to prove it.
If you think the above might be correct, there are other records in Long Clawson:-
William Thorpe married Elizabeth Jarvis on 17 Nov 1690 in Long Clawson and the following are assumed to be their children baptised in Long Clawson:-
John - 18 Sep 1695 (married Mary Rouse?)
Elizabeth - b 14 Mar 1697 c 18 March
Sarah - 23 Aug 1700
Elizabeth - 10 Apr 1703
William - 17 Jan 1704
Ann - 13 Dec 1705
There is a mill at Long Clawson - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Clawson
Another interesting link to the village is that it is one of the largest prodcers of Stilton cheese.
One of my Thorpe relatves sold the cheese at Stilton between 1798 and 1814. However, I am not sure if Long Clawson was supplying it at that time.
Regards,
David
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I'm interested in this discussion. My 4x great grandparents were Robert Hardwicke, and Deborah Hardwicke, brother and sister of the miller William Hardwicke. (Deborah married Thomas Rawnsley and their daughter Elizabeth married Robert's son William.) I've a lot more information on all of them.
It may be a coincidence but I think that Robert, Deborah and William's father William Hardwicke married Elizabeth Thorpe at Fletton near Peterborough on 19 Jan 1741. She died at Market Deeping in 1791 aged 69 and according to the Gentleman's Magazine left 53 children and grandchildren. Could she be related to the other Thorpes you have identified?
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I think, but can't prove, that Elizabeth Thorpe was the daughter of John, the miller, and Mary.
I have been meaning to have a look at the register for the marriage in Fletton but haven't managed it so far.
I know the house of Thomas Rawnsley, which was for sale recently, although I am not sure if it actually sold.
Do you know the dates of when William Hardwicke was the miller at Market Deeping?
Regards,
David
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I was in a rush with my previous post. Elizabeth was definitely the daughter of John, the miller, and Mary. It was marriage in Fletton that I was unsure of, although it seems likely.
Thomas Rawnsley's house is still for sale, as are some other properties named after him:-
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-37484887.html?premiumA=true
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/new-homes-for-sale/property-22289451.html
David
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Yes I agree the marriage in Fletton is not definite though I have never managed to find another marriage of William and Elizabeth Hardwicke that fits.
I don't have many references to William Hardwicke as a miller other than what's been said already and
1. William Hardwicke, miller, Market Deeping - game duty - in the Stamford Mercury 17 Sep 1790
2. William Hardwicke, Market Deeping and others, signatories to a notice about the theft of sacks. Stamford Mercury 15 Apr 1779. So he was presumably in business by then though it doesn't say he was a miller
3. Gentlemen's Magazine 1805 marriage of Elizabeth 2nd daughter of William Hardwicke, miller to Joseph Andrew of East India Co. (Contrary to an earlier posting two of William's daughters survived to adulthood) Witness was Mary Hardwicke
What I'm really struggling is with is which William Hardwicke married Elizabeth Thorpe. I'm not convinced it was the one born in Bourne in 1721.
Regards,
Rob
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It is difficult to be certain, although Thomas Rawnsley had links to the Hardwicks of Market Deeping.
I am not sure why Elizabeth Thorpe would have married in Fletton when her parents were living in Market Deeping and her husband probably also in Deeping or Bourne.
Mary Thorp's will identifies Elizabeth Hardwick as her daughter and William Hardwick as the sole executor.
When John Thorp jnr. died in 1767, the inventory was signed by William Thorpe and witnessed by John Thorpe and William Hardwick Jnr.
If it is the correct marriage, I would imagine that it was by licence, because it would have been difficult for William to attend the reading of the banns.
Similar marriage:-
William HARDWICK, of Outwell in the County of Norfolk, and Elizabeth RAWNSLEY of this parish, spinster, were married by licence on 25 Sep 1810
both signed
witnesses: Mary Hardwick, Eliza Andrews, Thos Rawnsley, Wm Waters?
I found another reference to William:
National Archives: MS 11936/370/570000 27 May 1790
Contents:
Insured: William Hardwick, Market Deeping, Lincolnshire, flour merchant.
I will try and have a look at the Fletton register, in case it has more information - i.e. William's parish.
David
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On your first point - Thomas Rawnsley was born in Bradford but moved to Bourne with his brother and became very successful. He married Deborah Hardwicke at Peterborough Cathedral in 1784. Deborah was the sister of William Hardwicke of Market Deeping. Thomas and Deborah Rawnsley have many famous descendants. Their daughter Elizabeth Rawnsley married Rev William Hardwicke in Bourne in 1810. This is the "similar marriage" you refer to. The Rev William was the son of Robert Hardwicke, an apothecary and surgeon in Wisbech, who was also the brother of Deborah Hardwicke. Hence the Rev. William Hardwicke and Elizabeth Rawnsley were first cousins. Their daughter Eliza Deborah Hardwicke (b Outwell 1819) was my great great grandmother. I've lots more details on these people if anyone wants it.
On your second - Fletton is not that far away - perhaps Elizabeth was in service there. Their children were all baptised in Bourne. But thanks for the info in the wills which clearly suggests William Hardwicke and Elizabeth Thorpe were the ones who married.
Thanks also for the witnesses at the 1810 marriage. Eliza Andrews would be the daughter of William Hardwicke the miller, she married in 1805, and cousin of both the bride and groom.
Rob
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In answer to the question posed by Roy47, I think I have found the marriage of William Hardwick and Mary.
Whittlesey St Mary, Cambridgeshireshire:
1779 - William Hardwick and Mary Thorpe - 19th August
Mary was probably the daughter of William Thorpe and Jane Wittome/Whittham:
1755 - Mary Thorpe daughter of William and Jane - 30th December
Marriage:
1753 - William Thorp and Jane Wittome - 7th February
This ties in with the burial of William and Mary's first child, although I have not found a baptism:
Market Deeping - 1780 - William Hardwick son of William and Mary - 29th December
Also the age given on Mary's burial:
Market deeping - 1793 - Mary Hardwick age 38 wife of William - 10th May
There are two burials for William Thorpe in Whittlesey but no ages are given:
1st January 1785 and 15th May 1786
I am fairly certain that William Thorpe was the son of John, the Miller, and Mary of Market Deeping, and that the marriage was probably arranged.
William was probably one of the people who carried out and signed the inventory following the death of his brother, John, in 1767, which was witnessed by William Hardwick junior.
I have also found the marriage of William Hardwick senior to Elizabeth Thorpe, the sister of William and John.
I imagine that this was also arranged and took place in Fletton, which is about six miles to the west of Whittlesey
Marriage: 19th January 1742 (note Familysearch has 1741 but the old calendar 1741/42 was in use)
William Hardwick singleman of Market deeping in Lincolnshire and Elizabeth Thorpe of this parish singlewoman.
I took a copy of this marriage.
There are other Thorp(e) records indexed at Whittlesey St Andrew but they were not transcribed and so I need to look at these also.
Regards,
David