RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: ww1614 on Sunday 13 October 13 22:09 BST (UK)
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Hello! First post here. I have a bunch of dead ends in Ireland, so I'll be posting a little bit on a few different boards.
I have the marriage record for my great-great grandparents, Daniel Haggerty and Ellen Henvey (well, that's how the names are spelled in US records). The marriage record lists Daniel Hegarty and Ellen Hanvey as being married in Belfast on 20 Aug 1873. Daniel's parents are listed as Thomas Hegarty and Ellen Mullan. At the bottom of the record is this notation:
"Church: ST MARY'S Roman Catholic REV P POWER 1 0 0 MGR HUSBAND'S PARENT'S FROM BOYE CO DERRY."
I get that they were married in St. Mary's RC church by Rev. P. Power. I don't know what 1 0 0 MGR means. I also don't know what is meant by "Boye Co Derry." There is no "Boye" in County Derry as far as I can Google. Any ideas?
As an aside, Daniel was a clockmaker/watchmaker who left Belfast in 1880 to work in Brooklyn, NY, then Ellen and two of her children came to the US a few years later. (My great-grandmother was born in the US.) I don't know a lot about the clockmaking trade and whether that was an unusual profession that might have brought Daniel from Derry to Belfast then to Brooklyn. Insights would be appreciated.
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'Boye' Co. Derry is certainly puzzling- several places here ending with 'boy' but can't think what this place could be (Hegarty and variants quite common in Co.Derry).
What's the occupation of Daniel's father Thomas?
Clocks were quite common in those days and clockmakers would have been all over Ulster so no particular reason for Daniel to have moved to Belfast. I don't see him listed in a colume of watch & clock makers that I have but perhaps he was just working for someone else whilst here.
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Thank you for the reply! No mention on the marriage record of Thomas Hegarty's occupation.
I do find a listing for Daniel Heggarty in the Belfast 1877 directory (working my way through PRONI right now) as a watchmaker on Divis St.
I will keep searching....
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Have you checked all possible U.S. records for clues? naturalization applications, death certificate, newspaper obituary, etc.? sometimes the home place in Ireland will be mentioned.
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I assume that the 1873 marriage certificate you have is the document issued by the church. (I say that because you refer to the husband’s mother’s name which would not appear on a civil certificate). The civil certificate can contain additional information. It might be worth obtaining that to get any addresses, or clarification of the bride’s address, and fathers’ occupations etc.
The marriage was registered in Belfast 1873 Volume 11, page 446. You can order a photocopy from GRO Roscommon for €4 per certificate. Put the place, year, volume & page number on the application form (anywhere). http://www.groireland.ie/ You have to post or fax the form to them but they will e-mail the copy certificate to you if you wish. Put “please e-mail to…..” clearly on the top of the form.
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Thanks, I am trying to track down his death certificate in NY and have a possible one on order (not sure it's his--will know for sure when I see the nearest relative).
Elwyn, thank you for the advice on getting the civil certificate. I will do that. I'm American, and the records are all much more familiar to me than the Irish records. I still have to look at a map to find the different counties. :)
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Back to the marriage certificate that you do have- it that notation hadwritten? and is there a postage stamp on the document?
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I got it from rootsireland.ie, so it's a screenshot of the page.
(http://i.imgur.com/MQC5Pv8.png)
The civil record seems the best bet. It's what I do for US records. I just had no idea where to start in Belfast.
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In relation to the numbers and letters 'MGR' in RootsIreland records, I once contacted them with that very query and all I got back was the following:
"It simply indicates that this is a comment for clarification."
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5 baptism 'hits' come back on the RootsIreland index for Thomas Hegarty and Ellen Mullan, all Co. Londonderry. There's no Daniel, but RootsIreland can be quite patchy in its coverage. In any case they are in the right time zone to be siblings. The records are pay to view should you wish to see the detail.
The townland is Brockaboy (Brockaghaboy, Brockabuoy and other variants) in the civil parish of Errigal. There are several Hegartys (inc. a Thomas) in the relevant townland on Griffiths Valuation, still a Hegarty presence there in the Ireland Census. And several Hegarty from Brockaboy will entries on the PRONI website.
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In relation to the numbers and letters 'MGR' in RootsIreland records, I once contacted them with that very query and all I got back was the following:
"It simply indicates that this is a comment for clarification."
Not very helpful of them, is it? you'd think the 'comment' would appear at start or finish rather than in the middle ::)
Brockaboy is outside the village of Garvagh and makes sense as there are/were Hegartys there. There will be gaps in the church records which could explain Daniel's details not appearing. Brockaboy comes under Coleraine registration district. However, a word of caution, there will be seberal Hegarty families there and they re-use the same Christian names over and over again so it can get complication.
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Hi, just a late follow up. I believe the "MGR" is the old common abbreviation for Monsignor, which is mostly associated with the title used in the Catholic Church. As far as the numbers, that was the payment made, called an honorarium, in £ s d. Also more common in the Catholic Church. Typically, the donations/offerings or whatever during mass were recorded and kept track of. Additionally, honorariums should have been kept track of, and they should've been kept track of separately from the donations/offerings. As the word implies, an honorarium is not required, therefore, assuming the Church did keep track of them, a
"0 0 0" or no numbers, means there was no honorarium money paid. You'll notice that certain priests recorded no honorarium as "0 0 0", while others kept it blank.
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Hi, just a late follow up. I believe the "MGR" is the old common abbreviation for Monsignor, which is mostly associated with the title used in the Catholic Church. As far as the numbers, that was the payment made, called an honorarium, in £ s d. Also more common in the Catholic Church. Typically, the donations/offerings or whatever during mass were recorded and kept track of. Additionally, honorariums should have been kept track of, and they should've been kept track of separately from the donations/offerings. As the word implies, an honorarium is not required, therefore, assuming the Church did keep track of them, a
"0 0 0" or no numbers, means there was no honorarium money paid. You'll notice that certain priests recorded no honorarium as "0 0 0", while others kept it blank.
That is a very good theory but there is a problem with it.
You see, I 've seen hundreds of RootsIreland records and "MGR" isn't restricted to RC records, it also appears in records for protestants marrying in Church of Ireland and Presbyterian churchs. The numbers vary from record to record.
Hence why I contacted RootsIreland for their version. I suspect that while the actual comment might appear in the original documentary record, the "MGR" and numbers may be something that the RootsIreland system / database / application adds.
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Not sure what you mean by theory, I said TYPICALLY RC.
Another thing, the MGR title was used several denominations of Christianity. There are various informal definitions. Even in Catholicism, it used to vary in its meaning.
As far as the numbers go, that is is what most would consider a fact. Three priests that have no association with each other, other than having the same occupation and religious views, have backed that up. It stood for money, and for an honorarium. Yes, the numbers vary. When you them in the format of "0 0 0", regardless of what those numbers are, it's for accounting purposes
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As far as I know, the Roman Catholic church is the only one in Ireland the uses the title Monsignor (or anything like it)- certainly the Church of Ireland, Presbyterians, Methodists, Congregationalist and Baptists don't. If you can name whatever other religion does so I'd be most interested.
I haven't really used RootsIreland for Co. Derry records but if gaffy has seen this 'code' used in non-Catholic records then the explanation is unlikely to be a title and payments pertaining to R.C. records only.
Does seem strange that RootsIreland cannot offer an explanation of this bit of their own database.
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The MGR part is TYPICALLY used by Catholics. Typically, as in more so than in other denominations. And MSG was most definitely used by all denominations, even athiests. Monsignor.
That being said. Regardless of what MGR means, the numbers are transfers of money, which is the portion of my response that I referred to when I said that is what a number of different priests said. On top of that, I have not seen a single record filed by the registrar that had such numbers.
So again, MGR is speculation, which could be explored by seeing if a given priest was given that title.
The accounting and it's notation in church records was a "pretty standard item to note on there".
Perhaps some other religious folk could inquire with their respective reverends, etc. to see if there's anything they can offer with regard to info? How's that sound for a resolution? And then post your findings. Open to anyone.
Ps I have a Methodist church noting a "monsignor", but I have not found others outside of RC parishes, so that's still openly debatable as well.
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The MGR part is TYPICALLY used by Catholics. Typically, as in more so than in other denominations. And MSG was most definitely used by all denominations, even athiests. Monsignor.
Afraid not. I can't speak for all denominations in Ireland but the major ones certainly do not have such a title- Methodists, Presbyterians, Reformed Presbyterians, Church of Ireland and Baptists to name a few.
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I don't think think any of them do either, not to my knowledge. That's why I said, typically RC. To simply state that no one has those titles would be misleading, that's why I didn't say that NO ONE in other denominations has ever had that title.
In other words, I have not personally met and monitored each and every priest/reverend, etc., and therefore me publicly denouncing that no one has such a title, would be a lie. I can be reasonably sure that there's been exceptions aside from official church titles. There is no church title, correct. People convert. There's Anglicans that have been given the title monsignor at a later time, there's various exceptions throughout history of people from every denomination. I am not going to mislead people by stating that it doesn't exist. Aside from that, you and I have already agreed that the whole "mgr" thing is probably not monsignor, so again, the point of my post was and still is the "numbers" portion. Which, if you've seen on some original records, even have £ s d on them above those numbers on them. So, if you have some other idea of what £ s d could possibly mean, other than money, then feel free to let everyone know. Aside from that, anyone else wondering what these numbers could mean, might find my post useful. If you don't find this to be useful information for you, then that is ok. Don't try to invalidate the useful portion of my post (the numbers) by undermining something that both of us already know that neither of us knows (the "mgr"), because that's not useful to anyone. If the information on these numbers is news to you, than I appreciate the cynicism, and being a researcher in a completely different field I understand where you're coming from when you come across something you believe you would've heard about before. There's not always everything is x and if not x, then y, no exceptions. There's exceptions to everything, and if you learn nothing from anything else I post, learn that.
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MGR HUSBAND'S PARENT'S FROM BOYE CO DERRY."
Hi ww1614, I went back to RootsIreland to be sure about the "MGR" reference and they re-affirmed my earlier answer.
In RootsIreland marriage records, or those records which appear on related websites such as AncestryIreland.com (the Ulster Historical Foundation website, there may be others), no matter what denomination of church the marriage relates to, the notation "MGR" (usually in a comment field) signifies that the words that follow are a comment added by the inputter of the data (for clarification). That is all that "MGR" means, it has no genealogical or religious significance (though the following comment normally will).
Another typical example is "MGR: Both fathers deceased"
Hope you find this useful.
Regards.
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Thank you for checking with RootsIreland, gaffy. A strange way of recording additional details (without explanation to anyone purchasing the records) but at least it does confirm that 'MGR' is not part of the original record and does not hold a religious meaning- much more senseable than "MSG was most definitely used by all denominations, even athiests [atheists]."