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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: clearly on Sunday 13 October 13 20:59 BST (UK)
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As many people have posted about graves being reused, I was just wondering what happened to the remains of the previous occupant. Are they reburied communally, cremated or just discarded?
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Having read some of the burial acts in the past old and new acts ....it depends..... some graves it is possible to bury additional people without disturbing those already buried there, with others their remains are cremated, so in affect it is a new grave....... all this is bound up in lots of red tape, acts, permissions , time frame, such as graves old than 75yrs ( which I have to say surprised me I thought it was longer)
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I recently looked for my grandfather's grave (i knew which church yard but not exactly where). The vicar very kindly met me and apologised profusely because the grave had been reused. It was the quickness of it being reused that surprised me there was only 20 years between both deaths! This was in the 1930's to 1950's.
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Oh that is a shock, from my understanding they contact the family before this happens, some graves if the lease is up etc etc
www.parliament.uk Home page - UK Parliament has a adobe PDF fact sheet, it might be worth reading that it is about the 'Reuse of graves'
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So, the remains are cremated. This makes a bit of a mockery of "their final resting place" a term often used with the deceased.
I have tried to trace the grave of someone who died in 1938 and have been told that the grave space has been reused. However the cemetery could not tell me what happened to the remains and their "search" for next of kin or living relatives involved sending a letter to the address of the person that purchased the grave space in 1937 and that happened to be the deceased. I just wondered if there was any set procedure to trace relatives before they reuse the space.
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They have done what they need to do, which was send the 'owner' a letter, unless those relations update the information address, informing that the person died and they are next of kin which I have to say is not something many would do, then all the authorities need to do is try to make contact via mail with the 'owner' they have on their books
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It does make me wonder why we buy the burial plot . How much money is made re selling burial plots ? Is it morally right to sell you a final resting place then remove you ? What do others think?
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I think you'll find that most plots aren't purchased 'in perpetuity', 50 or 75 years being the norm.
More of a leasehold than freehold situation.
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Presumably the time period refers to the most recent death. My grandparents are buried in Newmarket Road Cemetery Cambridge; my grandfather died in 1935, my grandmother 1953, so he has been there 78 years, she 60. Logically it has to be 75 years (or 50) after the most recent death; but this can get complicated when an area needs to be cleared for reuse.
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Good evening,
Graves belong to the people who purchased the plot/s for 100 years. Even after 100 years the family must be traced and permission gained to reuse, reinter, move headstones or any other act which is required to take place. Without that permission nothing can be done to that grave.
John915
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I believe the date starts from the time of purchase not the last burial.
https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/burials-and-graves
I would check with the cemetery, your time might be up. If so, make sure they have your contact details on file in case of the need for future contact.
My great-grandparents are buried in Hitchin, the 50 years was up before i started doing the family history, but I contacted Hitchin and they have my details on file. As I was not the next of kin, and didn't have the deeds, I couldn't get the date renewed.
Different cemeteries have different lengths of time the plots are exclusively available for. Westminster cemeteries 'purchse of burial rights' are 75 years
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The Burial Rights to a grave are determined by the county or local authority. in the case of Cornwall for example the Rights last 50 years from the time the plot was purchased. Southampton City Council has a 30 year grant. Very few authorities still off a 100 year grant. At the end of the initial period the Burial Rights Owner has an offer made to renew for the next 10 year period and this repeats each ten year period. If the Burial Rights Owner is then himself/herself deceased, if a will was made "leaving the residual of my estate to X" then X can apply to the cemetery authority to take on the rights of the Burial Rights Owner. If the 10 year periods are not renewed, the cemetery authority will after a period of time consider a new burial. At present the regulations only allow London boroughs to re use the graves, the most prominent to do so is the City of London Cemetery where the scheme works successfully. The Ministry of Justice which administers coroners and burial law is considering a national scheme but pressure on parliamentary time has for some time pushed such legistlation back down the queue and it is unlikely to happen in the present Parliament.
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When my Grandfather died, I was his executor. He had already bought a plot, as my grandmother had passed away before him.
When I went through his papers, I found a certificate stating that he owned the plot for 70 years from the date of purchase.
Steve
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Thanks Dawnsh, just had a brief look. Back soon
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can anyone say do these same rules apply in Scotland?
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can anyone say do these same rules apply in Scotland?
I beleive lairs are sold in perpetuity in Scotland (although the report below seems to want to change that rule)
see
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/01/26131024/5
paragraphs 80 and 81
However, I have strangers buried in a family bought lair in Selkirk. In Traquair and Yarrow the lairs are still ours alone.
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Just asking the same questions of Glasnevin. My ggrandfather purchased a plot in 1912 when the first of three of his children passed (his father was also buried there). However, looking at the extended search, there were already two occupants in there. A woman who died in 1898 (just 14 years before my ggrandfather bought it) and a baby girl who died in 1874. The surnames of the earlier two are different, so I don't know whether my ggrandfather was the 2nd or 3rd person to purchase the same plot. The gap of just 14 years between the woman and the first of my family seems very short for 'reusing'. I await with interest their reply.
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I hope you will inform us of their reply , that does seem an incredibly short time.
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The original burials sound as if it was a public grave. If these graves had remaining space and a family of very limited means were trying to raise funds to buy a grave, sometimes the cemetery owner transferred a "public" grave to private ownership much below the cost of a new grave. This would have been with the knowledge of the purchaser.
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Hi all
So does anyone know what if any is the difference when someone has been buried in a 'tomb' or 'vault'?
Can these be disassembled and the ground reused as for a 'traditional' grave?
NDRFT
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Some graves were purchased in perpetuity and those would be in a different catergory to the normal leased graves, however the great majority of graves are in the latter where the BR's last a specified term. At present only the London boroughs are generally re using graves [example City of London Cemetery] as new regulations would be needed to be introduced by parliament for the remainder of England and Wales.
In cemeteries under the control of local authorities, there are existing powers to add additional burials where a grave say was purchased as a double and only one burial took place and it has remained so for many decades. Similarly in theory where BR's have expired the LA would be able to add additional burials. In theory this would equally apply to vaults and tombs. However many Victorian cemeteries have Listed buildings, graves of historic interest or boundary walls/gates. A ruling by a Consistory Court on West Norwood Cemetery ruled that the curtilege of a Listed grave applied to the whole cemetery. This ruling was specific to that cemetery but it has never been appealed or challenged. This means that any demolition etc would require LBC from the LA [or EH if grade II*]. Therefore LA's may now be more reluctant to interfere with existing vaults/ tombs and there is a "jobsworth fear" among many local councils that relatives of somebody who died 150 years or so before will sue for criminal damage or trespass if the council repairs or allows a voluntary conservation group to repair a vandalised grave. Using the same logic theses jobsworths may be reluctant to interfere with a tomb/vault in case the council were to be sued. Another factor is that many cemeteries such as Southampton Old Cemetery, Lister Lane, Leeds and Ford Park Plymouth are on an EH Register of Historic Parks and Cemeteries and although not quite so strong in law as a Listed Building, EH would surely place pressure on LA's if they began destroying historic or attractive graves so breaking the character of a cemetery.
The answer in brief is yes vaults/tombs etc would be treated as normal graves but many of these would be in consecrated ground or even under the floor of a chapel and the LA would need a Faculty from the Consistory Court.
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I only really wanted to know initially what happened to the remains of a deceased in a grave that was to be reused. Can I ask Cemetery Friends if the following three facts which have emerged are correct:
1 Graves are only reused in London Boroughs. There is no legislation applying to the provinces. (This negates what a cemetery in the North of England has told me.)
2 The remains are from a reused grave are cremated.
3 If the owner of a grave cannot be found, nothing can be done to that grave.
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Nicely summarized Clearly but and I hope I get my contribution below right from my memory......
I was at a cemetery office in Oxfordshire recently where I was told that public graves will be reused, in fact they have to be as the ground available for such use is so difficult to find.
The criteria is that dependent upon the depth of a grave but in most cases where a grave is 12 feet deep they can bury 3 or 4 people in it.
Where a private grave is more than 75 years old and the 'ownership' fee is not repaid then again that piece of land can be reused but they would not disturb the incumbent if the depth was adequate for an other burial on top!!
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Yes NDRFT that is an excellent summary. The public graves remain in public ownership unless exceptionally at some point it was transferred on a fee to a private individual [BRO]. This happened in the past usually to a family of limited means where there was sufficient space. This would be mainly to satisfy the families wish to have some form of marker stone which would not have been permitted on a public grave. Local authorities having graves that are 100 years of age are permitted to add a new burial and have been following that practice in England and Wales.
To Clearly: all local authority cemeteries after 100 years when all BR's have ceased are permitted to add a new burial, this applies to London and the provinces, I do not recall stating that this did not apply to all LA owned cemeteries. What has become different is the consideration to start using graves for re burial when the family have chosen not to renew BR's say after 10 or 20 years. This would not apply to the North of England cemetery that you quoted, this change is going need a legal framework. At present the 100 year rule applies but different legislation for London permits a different approach. My understanding is that in general such re cycling is done sensitively with the "new" family being made fully aware that it is a re used grave.
In answer to your third question, Local Authorities have power under The Local Authorities’ Cemeteries Order 1977 and requirements under H &S law to isolate, dismantle or add supportive framework or repair any grave whether the BRO's can be traced or otherwise which is in a crumbling or dangerous state. They have further powers to remove the memorial and kerb stones elsewhere or destroy them. in some burial grounds they have used old headstones as paving [which in itself causes some distress]. Many cemetery managers sent in teams with equipment to test the stability of headstones with little sensitivity which caused much public outcry. In several cases the Ombudsman ordered some of the authorities to pay compensation or re instate those stones [some of which were "Listed"]. The HSE whilst supporting safety in cemeteries with central government established a suggested code of conduct that wholesale demolition by testing equipment was not best practice. Graves where the relatives cannot be traced are unfortunately likely to fall into further disrepair as LA's will not allow any conservation work. In reality if ever the families sued, the council a judge would possibly award 1p for trespass and it would be a skilled barrister who could prove that conservation work by skilled craftsmen using approved mortar etc were causing criminal damage but try explaining that to a LA Lawyer.
I think the question whether removed remains are cremated remain with the local authority. I know many cases where car parks or road widening or in the case of Brandonwood Cemetery provision for a new transport link near the cemetery boundary etc necessitated going through an old cemetery where remains were removed. They were not cremated but re buried either collectively in another cemetery or where relatives could be traced placed in a marked grave. However such exercises are quite different to the need to find additional space and the concept of re cycling graves. Whether a particular local authority choses cremation or re burial of the remains can only be really answered by that council who may have a defined policy.
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I believe that at some time over the next 20 years it may well be necessary to move to a compulsory cremation policy in the UK for new deaths. In view of what we usually see about deferment of decisions and buck passing etc. I wonder which government will have the guts to implement this. At least the Victorians did in the mid 19th century but only when the graveyards became overflowing.
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However, I have strangers buried in a family bought lair in Selkirk. In Traquair and Yarrow the lairs are still ours alone.
I withdraw that statement as it turns out its a 1st cousin x2 removed of mine in the lair, and granddaughter of one of the occupants.