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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: elderone1 on Thursday 10 October 13 00:24 BST (UK)
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An Isabella Pheniy wrote to "Cousins John & Mrs. Kelly" from Hillsborough, Co. Down 29/3/92, reaching them in Skerry East, Co. Antrim. Details in the letter suggest the writer may be Isabella Kelly, born Co. Down about 1840, and registering by examination to Newtowncrommelin Presbyterian Church, Co. Antrim in March 1863. May have had a daughter Jane Kelly, born 17 June 1865 in Clough, Co. Antrim. Any information linked to a Pheniy family may help determine if this Isabella is part of my Tree, and its related family roots in Co. Down.
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Are you sure the surname is actually 'Pheniy'? I did find Phenix in Hillsborough area, including several Isabellas.
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Here is her signature. Her script is all very well formed throughout her letter, with zero spelling anomalies. Her surname could only be different if she was unclear what it was?
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Thanks for posting Isabella's signature. Not sure if it runs to the edge of the page but as I suspected it is PHENIX (with a poorly formed X at the end) not Pheliy.
There are 2 women named Isabella Phenix in 1901 census (in all Ireland)-
1) Isabella Phenix age 26 living in Co.Down with her siblings-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ballymaglaff/Ballymaglaff/1253595
same household in 1901 although Isabella's has only been increased by a few years-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Ballymaglaff/Ballymaglaff/262568
2) Isabella Phenix age 14 born & living in Belfast-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Springmount_Street/947218
1911 census introduces a third Isabella Phenix age 10 with middle name of Fleming living in Hillsborough area-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Hillsborough/Ballykeel_Artifinny/249774
Will post more information which I found after teatime.
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Thank you for your input. I had looked over surnames in Down and Antrim previously, and like you, found no "Pheniy", but a number of Feeney, Phenix, Phoenix, etc. However, neither of the two Isabellas you identified were of an age likely to have written this private letter. It was most clearly from a middle-aged (in 1892) person writing to her younger cousins and little ones upon their embarkation forever to America.
I'll have to explore other alternatives.
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I didn't say that any of the women in the census records were the Isabella Phenix that you are searching for but merely that they are the only ones listed in all Ireland for that period.
This looks like the birth registration for Isabella in Ballymaglaff- not that her mother is also Isabella- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5X5-QLY
So, am wondering if this could possibly be Isabella's mother and the writer of your letter?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FT86-66L
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Hi,
Following on from Aghadowey's findings. Mathew Phenix married Isabella Irvine in Lisburn Civil Registrars Office in 1858. The children of this marriage which I can find are:-
Elizabeth 26 May 1864 Anahilt Co Down
Mary 2 Aug 1866 .. ..
Male Child 14 Mar 1870 .. ..
Male Child 7 Mar 1871 .. ..
Isabella 29 Jun 1874 .. ..
James 21 Jul 1878 Ballykine Co Down
Regards
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The writer of the letter, Isabella Pheniy, is writing to her "Cousin John and Mrs. Kelly". If we look at this being a "1st cousin", then John is the son of Isabella's father's brother. John's father is David Kelly (documented) born in Co. Down. Don't know who Isabella's father is. However, we do know that an Isabella Kelly arrived in Newtown Crommelin in 1863, registering with but not an immediate family member with said David Kelly (my 3rd great grandfather). We also know that an Isabella Kelly was witness to the marriage of Maria Kelly (full age spinster) on 22 Apr 1865 to John Stuart, teacher, in Newtowncrommelin Presbyterian Church, by the Rev. Malcolm Orr (documented original). Said Maria Kelly arrived and registered with said David & Mrs. Kelly in March 1863 at Newtowncrommelin Presbyterian Church. So....the original letter, in Kelly family archives, connects an Isabella Pheniy to a David Kelly from County Down.
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I look at Isabella's signature, including with a good magnifying glass, and there is no way I can confuse that last letter with a distorted "X". If it is not "y", then it might be "g" or "q", but not "x".
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I am convince that the surname is Phenix and not any of the other variations you've mentioned. Putting aside my view, have a look at the facts-
1) there is no listing for those other names in the 1901 and 1911 Irish census records (searching for Pheni* only brings up the surname Phenix).
2) Ros Davies' Co. Down site lists Phenix/Phoenix but not Pheniy, Phenig or Pheniq.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/P/PhPi.htm
3) there were people called Phenix in and around Hillsborough (but again those other names do not appear)
4) there doesn't seem to be a marriage for an Isabella Kelly to a ? Phine* in Ireland. A search for ? Phenix shows only Matthew Phenix & Isabella Irvine who have been mentioned earlier
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That has me stumped. I know other relatives that changed the spelling of their names for various reasons. Perhaps I should look at Feeney and its similar sonix.
Isabella may have been a bit of a maverick!
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I reviewed the various suggestions, and the reference to death records in Lisburn comes closest to a match. That entry describes an Isabella Phoenix, with death recorded Jan-Mar 1896 in Lisburn. It gives an age of 59 years and an estimated birth year of 1837. Maiden name is blank.
The Isabella Ph....... letter mentions an "Elizabeth" that was planning to send "sonny" a new dress, but there was not enough time now as the John Kelly family was leaving Ireland forever. The child is interpreted as being John's 10 month-old son in 1892. Isabella knew that John's mother had just died, but no mention that his father had died in 1890. No way of finding out who Elizabeth was, but it is written as if they would know her. Maybe just a room-mate.
So we have an Isabella Kelly who arrived at NPC in 1863, was a witness to Maria Kelly's marriage in 1865, and may be the Isabella Kelly who gave birth to Jane Kelly, 17 June 1865 in Bellaghy, Rasharkin Parish District of Clough, Union of Ballymena, with no father identified. Then she disappears as a Kelly. We know she was not the Isabella who married a Phenix in 1858, because then she could not have been a Kelly in 1863 or 1865.
If the death record is of our Isabella, then it suggests she either died alone, or those with her knew nothing of her family background. She may have made up her last name. A sad end, whoever she might have been.
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That entry describes an Isabella Phoenix, with death recorded Jan-Mar 1896 in Lisburn. It gives an age of 59 years and an estimated birth year of 1837. Maiden name is blank.
Maiden names are not listed on death certificates but one thing the certificate will say is marital status (single, married, widowed, divorced).
If the death record is of our Isabella, then it suggests she either died alone, or those with her knew nothing of her family background. She may have made up her last name.
The certificate will also show name and address of informant which could be an important clue. Not sure what basis there is for thinking she may have 'made up her last name' or indeed for thinking she was Isabella Kelly.
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Hi again,
I guess my impatience is getting ahead of the work I am simultaneously paying a professional researcher to determine, which is to discover the first name and eventual passing of my great-great-great Grandmother, Mrs. David Kelly from Co. Down.
I know pretty much everything from my great-great Grandparents (Robert Kelly & Mary Jane Swann) on down. I visited his family gravesite in May, and spent time with my cousins in the area. My "newly discovered USA" cousin (September) provided me with a copy of a clearly written letter to her great-great Grandfather John & Mrs. (Martha) Kelly by an Isabella Pheni......, who addresses John as her "cousin".
There is sufficient detail in public documents to link Robert Kelly and John Kelly as sons of a David Kelly, and the same David Kelly. The Isabella whateverhernameis appears to be an older 1st cousin to Maria, Robert and John Kelly. Perhaps the Isabella Phoenix (1837-1896) who died in Lisburn is that person. We continue searching for "pieces" that could get back to their origins in County Down.
Sincerely,
David A. Kelly
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Aha....I found how to get back to this "conversation" and became aware that the clues to further information were in fact yours "aghadowey".
Thank you.
My other links are to the children of John Stuart and Maria (Kelly) Stuart, two born in Co. Down, and the last one, in 1871, in Newtown Crommelin, Co. Antrim. For that child, it was reported that Maria gave the Newtown Crommelin area address of her mother as her residence upon the birth. The priority one objective of the search is to find a name for Maria's mother. The person posting that information, Henry Hume, has not been back to this site in over a year, but if his email link has not changed, he should have received my targeted message request.
The Isabella Kelly that was the other search objective was one of the two witnesses to John and Maria's wedding, hence the target linkage.
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So folks on this thread know what suggestions have been made on the other thread, regarding 'Mrs David Kelly - Maria's mother', here's the link:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=351558.20